Air Force pilot bonus (ACP)

[BengalsFan]

Anyone know if the ACP for FY '08 came out over the holiday? It's getting a bit ridiculous that the AF can't figure out the ACP structure 3 months into fiscal year '08... although, maybe they cut too many damn people and don't have anyone to work on it!??!?!?!

 

[Be 23]

I think the blame belongs on the politicians for now. The ACP is part of the defense budget, which hadn't been passed yet. The AF proposed ACP months ago for their submission.

After the budget passes and it takes forever for them to implement a program they already knew about, then blame the AF.

Anybody know the status of the defense budget?

 

[AlbieF15]

FWIW....

I signed the $12,000 bonus back in 1996. Oct-Dec dragged on, and no budget into January. I forgot the details, but the budget was eventually signed and I got a call from the MPF that I needed to come down and sign the bonus within 48 hours or risk losing portions of it. So--wait wait wait but if you don't jump through your butt RIGHT NOW you lose money.

Nothing new under the sun...

Good luck. I'm happy I separated and went to the ANG but with age 60 changes I think taking the bonus right now is a better option than its been in a long, long time.

 

[Mud Eagle]

I'm happy I separated and went to the ANG but with age 60 changes I think taking the bonus right now is a better option than its been in a long, long time.

I gonked some numbers over the summer that I posted on APC...as with any planning, there were a crapload of assumptions, but the overall picture is that financially it is a wash IF you upgrade to Captain on time.

One error in my planning to note: although I allowed for flying to age 65, I took current upgrade time into account. I'd like to go back and re-wick the numbers for a 10, 11, or 12 year upgrade and see how that is different.

SCENARIOS:

1. Stay in the AF, take the bonus, make O-4 and retire as an O-4 at 20, then hired at SWA (with AF retirement pay)

2. Stay in the AF, take the bonus, make O-4 and O-5 and retire as an O-5 at 20, then hired at SWA (with AF retirement pay)

3. Leave AF at 10, get hired by SWA

ASSUMPTIONS:
- FY2007 USAF pay scale before taxes
- BAS/BAH is the "average" BAH for FY07 plus std officer BAS
- 10-year UPT commitment (so age 31/32 is the "break" point)
- Promotion to Maj at 10 years in scenario 1 and 2
- Promotion to Lt Col at 16 years in scenario 2
- Make gates to maintain ACIP at FY07 rate in scenario 1 and 2
- Took "pilot bonus" at current 25K/year in scenario 1 and 2

- SWA 2007 pay scale as shown on APC
- Upgrade to Capt at 7 years
- 78 hours/month, as described on APC's SWA page
- Fly till age 65

The results? I'm surprised by what I see:

TOTAL AGE 32 to 65 EARNINGS:

Scenario 1: $5,728,034.00
Scenario 2: $5,861,405.84
Scenario 3: $5,535,504.00

Obviously this is not a gnat's ass accurate number, especially because of SWA's trips-for-pay system, and the fact that APC's hourly rates aren't a direct correlation...but it's as close as I could get over my lunch break.

Bottom line: if the QOL suits you in the military, and you're willing to risk all the crap that is associated with the back half of a military career (staff job, remote, potential non-flying tour), it's a wash to potentially more financially beneficial to stay in.

 

[Rotorheads]

Checked the AFPC this morning, still nothing for FY08. I'm assuming $25k/5 yr contract again. Anybody heard anything different?

 

[NewmanF16]

Of course, there are a lot of intangibles to consider when getting out as well.

1) You stay in, and no one is hiring when you retire (this has happened to lots of my buds). You get a sim job and aren't current when hiring picks up.

2) The AF decides the predator is for you, and you aren't current/don't have many hours when you get out, whether airlines are hiring or not.

Another scenario to consider: You get out, get hired, and work a guard job until 20. Don't forget in your calculations what the value of your future retirement would be in all scenarios.

 

[YeOldeProp]

As you work your calculations, take a good look at NewmanF16's words. Somewhere around the 14-15 year point there's an "opinion" shift from the higher-ups about your role in the AF. Even thought you spent the majority of your early years as a pilot (and all your OPR's and stuff proved you were a pilot), things change as you get into the middle management of the squadrons/wings/staffs. Your bosses start letting you know that you're an "officer first and a pilot at the AF's convienence". Which rapidly turns into you're an "officer first"...and you'll do what's good for the AF (and they'll let you know just what that is). Ever hear of guys who were offered a great assignment that'll really help their career? And they had very little background that related to that job...except maybe they were up for PCS at the time?

As you get older, you'll have less and less opportunity to stay in the cockpit. You may think you have it all figured out and head off to do that mandatory staff tour with the perfect return to the cockpit in three years...only to see it all disappear when the "AF policy" shifts with a PCS of a General/Colonel in a position you've never heard of. Or a weapon system starts geting phased out early to support the R&D or Acquisitions money chase at the Pentagon.

Getting back to that cockpit can be very tough. Being a normal pilot means (to me) that you're the type that's gonna to do the best job you can wherever you are...even on the staff. You'll do it because it's important to those out on the line and forward deployed. That kind of staff expertise gets noticed (especially by those higher-ups who really prefer to be on the staff and not out on the line flying). They look for guys who'll get the job done in a quality way, because it makes it easier on them (and therefore the organization looks better to his/her bosses and raters). And that guy can re-route you (and your expertise) into a position that's miles and miles from a runway and into a second deskjob..."for the good of the AF".

You really need to hold your cards close to your chest and not show them to anyone you cannot absolutely trust. As far as anyone's concerned. you're still on the career path. The etiquette of letting your immediate bosses know your plans can be a bit touchy...and is probably a different thread.

Staying current is a HUGE factor in your quest for a higher-level civilian flying career. Good luck with it all...

 

[viperdriver]

Need to run the numbers for get out at 10 serve guard/reserve til 20 and get retirement at 60. I believe that is the way to go.

 

[Afterprop]

YeOldeProp speaks truthfully. Be berry, berry careful. But get in touch with those who have departed the fix ahead of you to determine the winds ;-)

FWIW, an additional consideration may be how much one pays for health insurance on the outside. As a retiree, I pay $460/yr for a family which compares quite favorable to other options. Depending upon your company, some guys pay over $400/month for health insurance.

 

[rcbullock]

2) The AF decides the predator is for you, and you aren't current/don't have many hours when you get out, whether airlines are hiring or not.

Anyone heard of giving any consideration for Predator time as PICish (you're breaking things with missiles fired off an airframe, which is kind of responsible) as long as you're also current?

Scenario:

You've got 1000+ PIC piston, 1000+ SIC turbine, you're current 121, and you want to go to a major. Plus Predator and navigator time.

My answer is "Nice to have." but anything more concrete that anyone's heard? I know, unusual scenario.

 

[bssthound]

hold your cards close to your chest and not show them to anyone you cannot absolutely trust

You will find no better advice. Some advice as good but none better; and if you have any question as to whether you can trust someone . . . you can't.

 

[jke406]

Anyone heard of giving any consideration for Predator time as PICish (you're breaking things with missiles fired off an airframe, which is kind of responsible) as long as you're also current?

if they accept Predator time as "real", then all the hours I spent playing "Top Gun" on the Nintendo should count, too, right?

no way will that time count for anything.

 

[Wildmanny]

if they accept Predator time as "real", then all the hours I spent playing "Top Gun" on the Nintendo should count, too, right?

no way will that time count for anything.

AGREE! There will be NO credit for flying that thing--airlines won't consider that an airplane unless you are sitting in it! FWIW--Avoid the Predator at all costs, no matter what your aspirations. It may be the wave of the future in the USAF, but it won't give you one.

WM

 

[ualdriver]

Are you military guys seeing LESS pilots leaving the military for airline careers with all the stuff that has been going on for the past few years?

 

[Tanker Clown]

One thing in the calculations of getting out early and going to SWA that isn't factored in is things like: profit sharing, 401K match, and after the 401k is maxed then the account that it goes into for SWA guys. I think I heard that when a SWA guy reaches about $225K then that is the max amount of matching that SWA can do by law, so the rest of the matching goes into another account (402 or 403). Those numbers are also kind of hard to calculate for.

There is also something to be said for seniority. Your QOL is significantly better than the guy 10 years behind you. Not to mention that the airlines that are hiring currently have no domociles in Iraq.

I wish I could have gotten out earlier, but it was a bad time ('01). I still think if you leave for a place like SWA, FedEx, or UPS by year 16 or so you'll come out ahead in the long run.

A couple last thoughts for folks looking at an AF retirement and then going to the airlines: first, don't be a big a$$hole just because your the DO or Dept OG...those Capts that get out at the 10 year point will burn you if you are a massive....richard; two, you need to find a way to stay flying. I think SWA expects an average of at least 100 hrs a year for 3 years before employment. So get your nose out of the OG's crack and pick up a trip or something.

 

[Mud Eagle]

I wish I could have gotten out earlier, but it was a bad time ('01). I still think if you leave for a place like SWA, FedEx, or UPS by year 16 or so you'll come out ahead in the long run.

In what way? Certainly not financially...if you don't make more money by age 65 as the guy that gets out at 10, then how will you make more by leaving 6 years later?

Remember that the military guy's income also doesn't include the tax free, CZTE, hostile fire, etc that he'll get on his one or more deployments/remotes during that time.

Yes, there is slop on both sides financially...

The lesson is, though, when I first saw the "airline comparison" spreadsheet in 1999, there was just NO comparison...you made so much more money at the airlines that it was ridiculous. You'd have to be dumb to stay until 20.

Now, that is just not the case AT ALL. The decision is significantly more difficult today.

 

[Tanker Clown]

In what way? Certainly not financially...if you don't make more money by age 65 as the guy that gets out at 10, then how will you make more by leaving 6 years later?

Remember that the military guy's income also doesn't include the tax free, CZTE, hostile fire, etc that he'll get on his one or more deployments/remotes during that time.

Yes, there is slop on both sides financially...

The lesson is, though, when I first saw the "airline comparison" spreadsheet in 1999, there was just NO comparison...you made so much more money at the airlines that it was ridiculous. You'd have to be dumb to stay until 20.

Now, that is just not the case AT ALL. The decision is significantly more difficult today.

A guy who leaves (especially at the 10 year point) gets to the high career earnings much faster. He hit's the 12 year point where most airline scales max out and he's making (in SWA's case) $250K/ year. So, while Joe Blow LTC is making $150 (if he was on the 20 year bonus) and living in a place with high BAH he is making 100K less a year. Times that by the 10 years longer (since he got out 10 years earlier) and there you have a cool million. There is slop, but if you could leave for SWA at the 10 year point now (and don't forget there's only a 5 year bonus) then it is a complete no brainer. I figure it's break even at the 16 year point. Not to mention, the bs factor is significantly less at SWA.

 

[Mu2Driver]

Is the ACP money Taxable? So, the current bonus is for a 5 year period. What happens after that 5 years? Can you take another 5 years to get you to retirement, or do they have you at that point?


Thanks,
A new KC-10 pilot

 

[bssthound]

It may be the wave of the future in the USAF, but it won't give you one

LMMFAO!! How true. Now, back to the discussion at hand . . .

 

[rcbullock]

FWIW--Avoid the Predator at all costs, no matter what your aspirations.

Nah, I was gonna do it for the Guard. I was a nav so I've learned the 'time that doesn't count' lesson well, TYVM.

I was hoping it'd look good 'in addition to' like nav time (IMHO) does.

I was hoping nav+predator+CAL mins (my 1000+ PIC is all piston unfortunately) might get me there a little quicker.

I.e., how many feathers can I put in my hat quicker (I'm almost 37), since turbine PIC is still a ways off.

Probably be good for networking in the Guard too. Which might be the most valuable thing.

 

[HarryShadow]

Just hit second year pay at SWA. I don't bust my a$$ and easily clear more more now than O-4 pay with the bonus...and it will continue to rise significantly each year (no retirement though). BUT, airline flying is too damn boring and the money doesn't make it worth it IMO.

Hold out for 20, then try the the airline gig. Age 65 just changed everything.

My advice...an AF job you don't like (flying or non-flying) is better than the airlines...for some!

Regardless...best of luck to all!!!

 

[Mud Eagle]

A guy who leaves (especially at the 10 year point) gets to the high career earnings much faster. He hit's the 12 year point where most airline scales max out and he's making (in SWA's case) $250K/ year. So, while Joe Blow LTC is making $150 (if he was on the 20 year bonus) and living in a place with high BAH he is making 100K less a year. Times that by the 10 years longer (since he got out 10 years earlier) and there you have a cool million. There is slop, but if you could leave for SWA at the 10 year point now (and don't forget there's only a 5 year bonus) then it is a complete no brainer. I figure it's break even at the 16 year point. Not to mention, the bs factor is significantly less at SWA.

Well, I don't agree with you.

Here are the spreadsheets showing all three scenarios. It's not financially better to leave.

Scenario 1: Stay in, take 5 year bonus, don't make O-5

Scenario 2: Stay in, take 5 year bonus, make O-5

Scenario 3: Get out and go direct to SWA

 

[Herk Bubba]

Numbers are off

MudEagle...

Retirement pay increases every year based on CPI. You may want to look at your numbers.

Not poking holes in your work - just a few comments, though...

I only clicked on your "retire as an O-4" link, and you've got $2997 from age 42 to 65... Check the DFAS website to see what the historical increase has been, and you can amortize out an average increase every year. 3% is good gouge... So it would be $2997 at age 42, $3087 age 43, etc...

Also, not sure if upgrading at 7 yrs is totally correct. I've got several friends on their 6th year and nowhere close to upgrading... Don't forget to add 3 to 5 yrs to upgrade due to Age 65.

And what about the option of getting out at 10, getting a seniority number, and then going back and getting an AD retirement? While difficult to accomplish, that's an option as well.

Just my two cents...

 

[HarryShadow]

I have a tough time with this one. A third year FDX widebody F/O at $130/hr nets less every two weeks than an AD O-4 WITHOUT the bonus.

Fair enough...I overshot a little. I re-ran the numbers and I do come up short of O-4 bonus pay...not by too much though. It is actually pretty easy to work the system, pick up additional trips for time and a half, and not work that much more. This way can at least match O-4 bonus. But you are correct, straight pay does not beat O-4 bonus pay.

The point I meant to make was the whole grass is greener analogy. I knew I wouldn't like airline flying as much as mil flying, I just didn't think I'd dislike as much as I do...even with a good paycheck.

Best of luck to all...

 

[Mud Eagle]

MudEagle...

Retirement pay increases every year based on CPI. You may want to look at your numbers.

The exact number isn't the point..yes, there are going to be increases over time, yes the BAH is going to be different at different assignments, yes upgrade times may vary.

I don't have a crystal ball to predict what any of those things are going to be. You've gotta throw a stake in the ground somewhere and make assumptions, so keeping all of those numbers the same at current rates was one of them.

What IS important is the relative wealth gained.

Used to be, pre-9/11, that there was no contest. The relative wealth gained by leaving the military up to year 17 was SIGNIFICANTLY more than staying until retirement. I think it was to the tune of about $2 mil.

I've run this same scenario with other well-paying majors like FDX, UPS, and CAL, and they all play out basically the same as this one -- that financially it's the SAME relatively no matter what route you take.

The MOST important lesson to be learned by seeing that the pay numbers are basically a wash (again, a lot of assumptions and not considering QOL at all), is that ONE furlough or bankruptcy or merger on the wrong end kills the entire house of cards for the guy WITHOUT the military retirement.

At that point, it will no longer be nearly equal.

 

[Herk Bubba]

Used to be, pre-9/11, that there was no contest. The relative wealth gained by leaving the military up to year 17 was SIGNIFICANTLY more than staying until retirement. I think it was to the tune of about $2 mil.

Wholeheartedly concur.

The paradigm has shifted. I can't even begin think of all the guys I know that took the bonus and threw the other leg over the fence.

Massive layoffs, BK's, and gutting of contracts (AA took a 23% pay cut in '03) totally leveled the playing field and now it's a much harder decision to bail or remain to get the AD retirement.

Good discussion...

 

[Schwanker]

Just hit second year pay at SWA. I don't bust my a$$ and easily clear more more now than O-4 pay with the bonus...and it will continue to rise significantly each year (no retirement though). BUT, airline flying is too damn boring and the money doesn't make it worth it IMO.

Hold out for 20, then try the the airline gig. Age 65 just changed everything.

My advice...an AF job you don't like (flying or non-flying) is better than the airlines...for some!

Regardless...best of luck to all!!!

I think you're quite a bit off here. I'm an O-5 with bonus and on a military leave of absence from NWA. I have several friends at SWA and UPS whom I've compared take home with. Right now, I can assure you my take home is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the 4 year SWA FO and 3 year UPS FO (this is without taking the 25K/yr into account). Hopefully I can jump back to NWA after the mil retirement and have the best of both worlds. A lot can happen over the course of the next few years so I'll stick with the sure thing for now.

Still Flying!
Schwanker

 

[HarryShadow]

I think you're quite a bit off here. I'm an O-5 with bonus and on a military leave of absence from NWA. I have several friends at SWA and UPS whom I've compared take home with. Right now, I can assure you my take home is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the 4 year SWA FO and 3 year UPS FO (this is without taking the 25K/yr into account). Hopefully I can jump back to NWA after the mil retirement and have the best of both worlds. A lot can happen over the course of the next few years so I'll stick with the sure thing for now.

Still Flying!
Schwanker

Yeah, I posted another response saying I was off a little...but again, not much.

Now I'm just curious: any O-4 with bonus...what's your monthly net?

 

[BengalsFan]

A little off topic, but hey, this is my thread... right?

I know the reserve ART pilot positions have the 30% bonus thing added to their pay, but do AGRs get to sign the same bonus as active duty?

 

[Benhuntn]

I think you guys miss the point when you only discuss money. I worked 22+/- days a month in the AF and I had a day job in addition to flying that required me to always be in the office when not on a trip. When I left the AF I was making 104k gross a yr. I now work 13-14 days a month as a 3rd yr SWA/fo and I grossed 120k plus profit sharing (8000k). When I am not flying I am home...no additional duties and desk job. QOL is much better and should be a factor in thinking of which way to go. It isn't always all about the money.