Air Force pilot bonus (ACP)

[Mud Eagle]

I wish I could have gotten out earlier, but it was a bad time ('01). I still think if you leave for a place like SWA, FedEx, or UPS by year 16 or so you'll come out ahead in the long run.

In what way? Certainly not financially...if you don't make more money by age 65 as the guy that gets out at 10, then how will you make more by leaving 6 years later?

Remember that the military guy's income also doesn't include the tax free, CZTE, hostile fire, etc that he'll get on his one or more deployments/remotes during that time.

Yes, there is slop on both sides financially...

The lesson is, though, when I first saw the "airline comparison" spreadsheet in 1999, there was just NO comparison...you made so much more money at the airlines that it was ridiculous. You'd have to be dumb to stay until 20.

Now, that is just not the case AT ALL. The decision is significantly more difficult today.

 

[Tanker Clown]

In what way? Certainly not financially...if you don't make more money by age 65 as the guy that gets out at 10, then how will you make more by leaving 6 years later?

Remember that the military guy's income also doesn't include the tax free, CZTE, hostile fire, etc that he'll get on his one or more deployments/remotes during that time.

Yes, there is slop on both sides financially...

The lesson is, though, when I first saw the "airline comparison" spreadsheet in 1999, there was just NO comparison...you made so much more money at the airlines that it was ridiculous. You'd have to be dumb to stay until 20.

Now, that is just not the case AT ALL. The decision is significantly more difficult today.

A guy who leaves (especially at the 10 year point) gets to the high career earnings much faster. He hit's the 12 year point where most airline scales max out and he's making (in SWA's case) $250K/ year. So, while Joe Blow LTC is making $150 (if he was on the 20 year bonus) and living in a place with high BAH he is making 100K less a year. Times that by the 10 years longer (since he got out 10 years earlier) and there you have a cool million. There is slop, but if you could leave for SWA at the 10 year point now (and don't forget there's only a 5 year bonus) then it is a complete no brainer. I figure it's break even at the 16 year point. Not to mention, the bs factor is significantly less at SWA.

 

[Mu2Driver]

Is the ACP money Taxable? So, the current bonus is for a 5 year period. What happens after that 5 years? Can you take another 5 years to get you to retirement, or do they have you at that point?


Thanks,
A new KC-10 pilot

 

[bssthound]

It may be the wave of the future in the USAF, but it won't give you one

LMMFAO!! How true. Now, back to the discussion at hand . . .

 

[rcbullock]

FWIW--Avoid the Predator at all costs, no matter what your aspirations.

Nah, I was gonna do it for the Guard. I was a nav so I've learned the 'time that doesn't count' lesson well, TYVM.

I was hoping it'd look good 'in addition to' like nav time (IMHO) does.

I was hoping nav+predator+CAL mins (my 1000+ PIC is all piston unfortunately) might get me there a little quicker.

I.e., how many feathers can I put in my hat quicker (I'm almost 37), since turbine PIC is still a ways off.

Probably be good for networking in the Guard too. Which might be the most valuable thing.

 

[HarryShadow]

Just hit second year pay at SWA. I don't bust my a$$ and easily clear more more now than O-4 pay with the bonus...and it will continue to rise significantly each year (no retirement though). BUT, airline flying is too damn boring and the money doesn't make it worth it IMO.

Hold out for 20, then try the the airline gig. Age 65 just changed everything.

My advice...an AF job you don't like (flying or non-flying) is better than the airlines...for some!

Regardless...best of luck to all!!!

 

[Mud Eagle]

A guy who leaves (especially at the 10 year point) gets to the high career earnings much faster. He hit's the 12 year point where most airline scales max out and he's making (in SWA's case) $250K/ year. So, while Joe Blow LTC is making $150 (if he was on the 20 year bonus) and living in a place with high BAH he is making 100K less a year. Times that by the 10 years longer (since he got out 10 years earlier) and there you have a cool million. There is slop, but if you could leave for SWA at the 10 year point now (and don't forget there's only a 5 year bonus) then it is a complete no brainer. I figure it's break even at the 16 year point. Not to mention, the bs factor is significantly less at SWA.

Well, I don't agree with you.

Here are the spreadsheets showing all three scenarios. It's not financially better to leave.

Scenario 1: Stay in, take 5 year bonus, don't make O-5

Scenario 2: Stay in, take 5 year bonus, make O-5

Scenario 3: Get out and go direct to SWA

 

[Herk Bubba]

Numbers are off

MudEagle...

Retirement pay increases every year based on CPI. You may want to look at your numbers.

Not poking holes in your work - just a few comments, though...

I only clicked on your "retire as an O-4" link, and you've got $2997 from age 42 to 65... Check the DFAS website to see what the historical increase has been, and you can amortize out an average increase every year. 3% is good gouge... So it would be $2997 at age 42, $3087 age 43, etc...

Also, not sure if upgrading at 7 yrs is totally correct. I've got several friends on their 6th year and nowhere close to upgrading... Don't forget to add 3 to 5 yrs to upgrade due to Age 65.

And what about the option of getting out at 10, getting a seniority number, and then going back and getting an AD retirement? While difficult to accomplish, that's an option as well.

Just my two cents...

 

[HarryShadow]

I have a tough time with this one. A third year FDX widebody F/O at $130/hr nets less every two weeks than an AD O-4 WITHOUT the bonus.

Fair enough...I overshot a little. I re-ran the numbers and I do come up short of O-4 bonus pay...not by too much though. It is actually pretty easy to work the system, pick up additional trips for time and a half, and not work that much more. This way can at least match O-4 bonus. But you are correct, straight pay does not beat O-4 bonus pay.

The point I meant to make was the whole grass is greener analogy. I knew I wouldn't like airline flying as much as mil flying, I just didn't think I'd dislike as much as I do...even with a good paycheck.

Best of luck to all...

 

[Mud Eagle]

MudEagle...

Retirement pay increases every year based on CPI. You may want to look at your numbers.

The exact number isn't the point..yes, there are going to be increases over time, yes the BAH is going to be different at different assignments, yes upgrade times may vary.

I don't have a crystal ball to predict what any of those things are going to be. You've gotta throw a stake in the ground somewhere and make assumptions, so keeping all of those numbers the same at current rates was one of them.

What IS important is the relative wealth gained.

Used to be, pre-9/11, that there was no contest. The relative wealth gained by leaving the military up to year 17 was SIGNIFICANTLY more than staying until retirement. I think it was to the tune of about $2 mil.

I've run this same scenario with other well-paying majors like FDX, UPS, and CAL, and they all play out basically the same as this one -- that financially it's the SAME relatively no matter what route you take.

The MOST important lesson to be learned by seeing that the pay numbers are basically a wash (again, a lot of assumptions and not considering QOL at all), is that ONE furlough or bankruptcy or merger on the wrong end kills the entire house of cards for the guy WITHOUT the military retirement.

At that point, it will no longer be nearly equal.

 

[Herk Bubba]

Used to be, pre-9/11, that there was no contest. The relative wealth gained by leaving the military up to year 17 was SIGNIFICANTLY more than staying until retirement. I think it was to the tune of about $2 mil.

Wholeheartedly concur.

The paradigm has shifted. I can't even begin think of all the guys I know that took the bonus and threw the other leg over the fence.

Massive layoffs, BK's, and gutting of contracts (AA took a 23% pay cut in '03) totally leveled the playing field and now it's a much harder decision to bail or remain to get the AD retirement.

Good discussion...

 

[Schwanker]

Just hit second year pay at SWA. I don't bust my a$$ and easily clear more more now than O-4 pay with the bonus...and it will continue to rise significantly each year (no retirement though). BUT, airline flying is too damn boring and the money doesn't make it worth it IMO.

Hold out for 20, then try the the airline gig. Age 65 just changed everything.

My advice...an AF job you don't like (flying or non-flying) is better than the airlines...for some!

Regardless...best of luck to all!!!

I think you're quite a bit off here. I'm an O-5 with bonus and on a military leave of absence from NWA. I have several friends at SWA and UPS whom I've compared take home with. Right now, I can assure you my take home is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the 4 year SWA FO and 3 year UPS FO (this is without taking the 25K/yr into account). Hopefully I can jump back to NWA after the mil retirement and have the best of both worlds. A lot can happen over the course of the next few years so I'll stick with the sure thing for now.

Still Flying!
Schwanker

 

[HarryShadow]

I think you're quite a bit off here. I'm an O-5 with bonus and on a military leave of absence from NWA. I have several friends at SWA and UPS whom I've compared take home with. Right now, I can assure you my take home is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the 4 year SWA FO and 3 year UPS FO (this is without taking the 25K/yr into account). Hopefully I can jump back to NWA after the mil retirement and have the best of both worlds. A lot can happen over the course of the next few years so I'll stick with the sure thing for now.

Still Flying!
Schwanker

Yeah, I posted another response saying I was off a little...but again, not much.

Now I'm just curious: any O-4 with bonus...what's your monthly net?

 

[BengalsFan]

A little off topic, but hey, this is my thread... right?

I know the reserve ART pilot positions have the 30% bonus thing added to their pay, but do AGRs get to sign the same bonus as active duty?

 

[Benhuntn]

I think you guys miss the point when you only discuss money. I worked 22+/- days a month in the AF and I had a day job in addition to flying that required me to always be in the office when not on a trip. When I left the AF I was making 104k gross a yr. I now work 13-14 days a month as a 3rd yr SWA/fo and I grossed 120k plus profit sharing (8000k). When I am not flying I am home...no additional duties and desk job. QOL is much better and should be a factor in thinking of which way to go. It isn't always all about the money.