sim time as total time

[20sx]

what's the opinion on the board of using Level C and D sims as total time? I'm curious as i'd like to use this for upgrade times.

Thanks all

 

[FirstMate]

I wouldn't do it. Its not flight time.

 

[regionalcap]

Do not do it. It is sim time only.

 

[dogismycopilot]

what's the opinion on the board of using Level C and D sims as total time? I'm curious as i'd like to use this for upgrade times.

Thanks all

I don't think the opinions of this board will hold much water when you apply for your additional rating, so I'll spare you mine. Here's what the regs have to say. 14 CFR 61.159 (a)(5) states:

"Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter."

Hope that helps. It may be worth reviewing the entire section to determine your eligibility. Good luck on the upgrade!

 

[DoinTime]

Fly what you want...Log what you need.

 

[BlueRidger]

I had a friend who was about 50 hours short of the multi time needed for upgrade to a 121 captain. He had about 60 hours in the company sims through different training events. It was applied and he was allowed to upgrade. Take that for what it is worth.

 

[TheInsider]

what's the opinion on the board of using Level C and D sims as total time? I'm curious as i'd like to use this for upgrade times.

Thanks all

C and D time counts as total time. If the sim time was done Part 142, Training Centers it can also be used towards certification ( a new certificate or rating). Log it ! The logbook is yours, not the FAA's or any airline's. Just be sure to log it correctly and justify how you did it.

 

[RedDogC130]

C and D time counts as total time. If the sim time was done Part 142, Training Centers it can also be used towards certification ( a new certificate or rating). Log it ! The logbook is yours, not the FAA's or any airline's. Just be sure to log it correctly and justify how you did it.

You will get laughed at at an interview if you log sim time as total time. Your PIC + SIC + DUAL = TOTAL TIME If your time does not fall into one of those categories, you are wrong. It can only be one or the other...Do not log time in a sim in any of the above categories. It should be listed in a seperate category stand alone.

 

[siucavflight]

If you feel that you may have to explain it away at an interview you may not want to log it. This is how I look at everything I put in my logbook.
Do not count your sim time as your total time.

 

[nethan]

I know I'm slightly behind the curve as this has been going on for a bit now, but it seems sort of scary to me that people are having to scrounge up time like this just to meet the ATP mins.

 

[TheInsider]

You will get laughed at at an interview if you log sim time as total time. Your PIC + SIC + DUAL = TOTAL TIME If your time does not fall into one of those categories, you are wrong. It can only be one or the other...Do not log time in a sim in any of the above categories. It should be listed in a seperate category stand alone.

Laughed at? Done many interviews where you laughed at the applicant?

PIC + SIC + DUAL = TOTAL TIME
What? According to the FAA it counts towards TT but not certification unless Part 142.

Again, it is YOUR log book and follow the rules for logging. Log it as TT but use a separate column for sim and then deduct sim from TT and you have total actual flight time.

 

[blott]

I hope you don't view your taxes this way.... IRS does not mess around....

B

 

[DoinTime]

Your PIC + SIC + DUAL = TOTAL TIME

Your PIC + SIC + Dual will never equal your total time. Ever.

 

[trainer8]

Laughed at? Done many interviews where you laughed at the applicant?

PIC + SIC + DUAL = TOTAL TIME
What? According to the FAA it counts towards TT but not certification unless Part 142.

Again, it is YOUR log book and follow the rules for logging. Log it as TT but use a separate column for sim and then deduct sim from TT and you have total actual flight time.

As someone who conducts training, have been a SIM instructor, here is the bottom line.

If you "follow the rules", Simulator time is NOT Total Flight Time. It is Simulator Time is Simulator Time and should be logged as such.

In an interview, I wouldn't laugh, but I'd sure look the guys logbook over a little closer to see what other time is in there.

From another web site:

A Simulator or FTD session is not a "flight". The confusion that leads to this frequently asked question comes about because there are a number of different definitions here. And "total time" is not one of them.

"Total Time" isn't defined anywhere in the FAR. When the term is used, it's not alone. For example, 61.109(a) requires 40 hours of "flight time" for the private certificate. On the other hand, the 61.159 aeronautical experience requirements for the ATP include "at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot"

So there's really no such thing as "TT" standing by itself. It's usually combined with either "pilot time" or "flight time". And there is a definite difference between these two terms.

"Pilot time" is defined in 61.1(b)(12) and specifically includes simulator time.

that time in which a person -
(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.​

On the other hand, "flight time" is defined in FAR 1 as

Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or​

That does not include simulators. Even the best of them are still not "aircraft"

The logbooks I've seen don't have a column for "total time" or "total pilot time". They do have a column for total "flight" time or "Total duration of flight" and sim or FTD time doesn't belong there. Want to track total pilot time? Add a column and go ahead. It counts for something.</B>

T8

 

[CHQ Pilot]

If your company lets you add your sim time to meet a company total time requirements, then I would say go for it. CHQ was at one time letting FOs add their company sim time (intial plus any PCs) to their total time to meet upgrade mins. They were even projecting out how much time you would get in the months between the award posting and training (they also for a short time had 2 for 1 credit for any company flying). I wouldn't however add it to you actual flying total time. Most airlines don't count sim time as actual flight time, even though the FAA says a Level C or D may be counted as such.

 

[trainer8]

Your PIC + SIC + Dual will never equal your total time. Ever.

Mine does. Electronic logbooks will only allow you to enter it in one field, so it adds up correctly.

 

[mcleach71]

Your PIC + SIC + Dual will never equal your total time. Ever.

Ditto.

 

[siucavflight]

Ditto.

No ditto here for me, mine adds up.

 

[shamrock]

Mine does. Electronic logbooks will only allow you to enter it in one field, so it adds up correctly.

Logbook Pro allows PIC and Dual Rec'd in the same entry.

 

[shamrock]

Your PIC + SIC + Dual will never equal your total time. Ever.

Double-dog ditto.

 

[BlueRidger]

When you were working on your commercial rating, you are PIC but it is also logged as dual. You would double count the same time if it were added as PIC + Dual. Both go in the logbook but they are not additive.

 

[RedDogC130]

If your company lets you add your sim time to meet a company total time requirements, then I would say go for it. CHQ was at one time letting FOs add their company sim time (intial plus any PCs) to their total time to meet upgrade mins. They were even projecting out how much time you would get in the months between the award posting and training (they also for a short time had 2 for 1 credit for any company flying). I wouldn't however add it to you actual flying total time. Most airlines don't count sim time as actual flight time, even though the FAA says a Level C or D may be counted as such.

Why don't you quit being GI JOE and come back and fly the line.... Take care J

 

[shamrock]

No ditto here for me, mine adds up.

It will if you log time only as PIC OR Dual, never both, but (unless it's a company specific application/resume requirement) there's nothing saying that TT has to equal PIC+SIC+Dual.

 

[OCP]

For god sake... You don't ever touch a crj or anything else new without a buch of time in a level D sim. So why is that not total time? How is that any less total time than spending that much time in a (name your airplane) until you are rated for that airplane?

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

Total time is total time in aircraft, not including sim...at least that's the way it is in interviews...as a means of checking, ask the FAA if it'd count sim time towards the 1500 for your ATP...my guess is, the answer'd be "no"...I may be off here, but I think I've got it...

 

[Explosive]

Time in a flight simulator or flight training device cannot be logged as “flight time” ("flight time" is a required column per 61.51).


Since it is not flight time, it is not cross country, PIC, SIC, night/day, or loggable as time in any category, class, or type aircraft (since it is not an "aircraft").

Flight simulator/flight training device time can can only be logged as such. It is also considered dual received and simulated instrument.

Look at the regs for whatever certificate or rating you are going for and see how much sim time you can use in lieu of flight time. (e.g., 61.57(c)(1) & (d)(1)(ii), 61.58(e), 61.65(e), 61.109(i), 61.129(i), 61.157(i), 61.187(c)(2)).

But that still doesn't mean that you count it as total flight time on the 8710-1 form. It just goes into the appropriate SIM/FTD/PCATD instruction received, and instrument boxes and will be used to calculate your eligibility for whatever cert/rating you are applying for.

14CFR 1.1 & 61.1 contain definitions
14CFR 61.51 governs pilot logbooks

 

[siucavflight]

For god sake... You don't ever touch a crj or anything else new without a buch of time in a level D sim. So why is that not total time? How is that any less total time than spending that much time in a (name your airplane) until you are rated for that airplane?

Alright go with this guys answer. Then when you get asked why you are logging your time incorrectly on an interview, just say "well this guy OCP on flightinfo said that you should be able to because of the way that you are trained on most newer airplanes" Then just sit back and smile, next question!!

 

[OPECJet]

Why is it that people try and re-invent the wheel centuries after it was perfected.

I don't know many people who actually logged the sim time while in airline training to begin with. It's in your training records, why bother if you don't have to...

 

[siucavflight]

I remember the first day of training at Eagle I asked the instructor if he was going to need my logbook, he kind of laughed at me and said I can put whatever I want to in it, but he was not signing anything.

 

[Flyprdu]

Hey Let em not log it. I don't care. Means they are missing out.