Class Dates at Southern Air and Focus

[avbug]

Ah, no. You've tried posting under numerous names, but also have identified yourself as a captain and copilot for several carriers, all within the last year, and most recently have promoted yourself to captain in the 747 in your internet world. A year ago you told us you'd failed interviews for skywest.

Simply clicking on your name on this thread will give the viewer the option to review your old posts...all of them, all made by YOU...only one person with that handle and it's you.

Zero credibility, some serious inadequacy issues, and a penchant for telling lies...that's you.

 

[pilotbrain]

Like i said before there just might be more then one person using this handle

 

[avbug]

Not unless you let them. There's only one such "handle" registered. That would be you. Either you're a multi-personality fruitcake, or dumb enough to let others post under your name (and the others under which you've posted). Either way, you have zero credibility...either as the mythical 27 year old non-existant captain for SAI/Cargo 360, or the kid who failed his Frasca sim check at Skywest. (Though admittedly, it's a lot easier to envision you as the kid that failed his checkride, from your posts).

Of course, if there's more than one of you posting under this name, it means only that you are multiple trolls, each of whom lacks any credibility. Have it either way. Either you're a discredited individiual with inadequacy issues, or a group of discredited individuals, the collective wisdom of whom lacks a great deal of maturity.

Might as well try under a new name. Again. Maybe next time you'll do better.

 

[Rottweiller]

Dakota, you mention trips can be long (OK nature of cargo) but what kind of schedules are realistic, 18 on 12 off??

Growth seems to be rapid there and you mention CA qual FO's but what is the average time to make full CA and what constitutes CA qualified (prior 74 CA, Chuck Yeager in the sim etc?

Home basing is a big plus but is there a standard for DH flights, ie. business/first class or are you stuck in cattle for 12+ hours.

Thanks for your time.

 

[dakotaHC8]

Dakota, you mention trips can be long (OK nature of cargo) but what kind of schedules are realistic, 18 on 12 off??

Growth seems to be rapid there and you mention CA qual FO's but what is the average time to make full CA and what constitutes CA qualified (prior 74 CA, Chuck Yeager in the sim etc?

Home basing is a big plus but is there a standard for DH flights, ie. business/first class or are you stuck in cattle for 12+ hours.

Thanks for your time.

Ten days off is what you are scheduled for, but the company will often hit you up to trade a few of em in return for overtime pay when things get busy (or you happen to be on the side of planet earth that they need someone). Many guys do so in order to rack up bigger paychecks (80-120 hours). Others shoot for the days off (like me), and depending on how busy the season is, you can average a fair number of days at home, as you are supposed to pull your reserve at home (and like I said, if you are in the states and they need someon in Shanghai, well you can do the math). But make no mistake that you can end up on a long long... long rotation, if the schedule you bid (or end up with) backs up into the next months schedule... Like 40 days long. But its not that common. Longest I was out was 33 days in a row.

It depends on the schedule too, if you bid overseas vs. Domestic (usually ANC to lower 48), then obviously you will see less of the good 'ol USA...

So, I wouldn't recommend this company if you are a total homebody, as the real cash is when you stay out on the road... But if that's what you are looking for, you can work 'til you are blue in the face and see every corner of the world.

As for CA Qual'd FO's, I cannot speak for the company, but IMO they obviously are looking for someone that can step into the position quickly, without a lot of catching up. Obviously PIC time is a huge must, larger Jet pref'd, and someone that has overwater/international exper. is also a big plus... As a lot of repsopnsibility falls on the shoulder of our Captains. Much like I pointed out before, timing is everything, as sometimes they do not have a real need for them, while othertimes they do.

Standard Upgrade depend upon the amount of large jet time you come in with, otherwise you have to accumulate at least 500+ hours in type before getting into the left seat.

DH...? Depends on your freq flier status with the airline, otherwise coach. Much like NetJet guys, you become a master of the FF miles, and try to gain elite status on the most common carriers you fly on, so you can snag the better seats and priority boarding. Adds up quick if you DH up to ANC or overseas to Europe or Asia.

I'm not a big fan of coach, but it beats worrying about non-revving to get to work (like I did for a decade +). another thing most people do not mention in regards to Southern, is your travel to and fro is during work days, so your days off are at home

PS. You do not get DH pay your first year, which sucks, but it was one of the trade offs for us to retain Home Basing. sorry...

But most of the time, esp in the first year you will ride along on the upper deck on a comapny flight. Not quite the first class it might be on passenger 747s, but the bunks help kill the time + there are outlets to plug your laptop/PSP's into...

Hope it helps.

 

[ERJFO]

When you honestly talk to someone that flies for Evergreen, Tradewinds, Focus, World, Atlas, Polar, (and so on) you find that each outfit has it's plusses and minuses...

And when you add them all together all of these places are pretty much alike. Much like how M+M's mostly taste the same when you get down to it, despite whatever color coating they happen to have on the outside... ACMI operations are purposefully kept pretty close to even

Southern's "outer" flavor is a tough schedule + soft work rules, tied to a home basing + quick advancement.... But at it's core it "tastes" the same as any other ACMI outfit (much like working + getting hired at most regionals is generally the same as any other regional) . It's just the nature of the job...

So good luck. If you want something different than the regionals, ACMI flying will sure provide that.

Good luck.

Thanks for the info! I tend to think that the small diffences add up rather quickly and can make one place better or worse...

I do see what your saying though in that they run very similary.

I've talked to Atlas guys that "still enjoy it" and Evergreen guys that "wish they were dead." So I have to believe some places are better than others.

Kinda like the RJ thing. If I were at a place with PBS it's a slim chance that I would be in the middle of 43 days off on vacation right now! Some places don't build lines with 19 days off a month. Now we all fly RJ's on RJ type routes but when the Mesa crew piles in the van I don't hear any of them tell me they get more than 15 days off - I don't imagine any off them can get 40+ days off with only 2 weeks of vacation either... It's the same job, but the company makes a difference. I have to think the ACMI world sees a bit of that?

Agian, thanks for the info.

 

[dakotaHC8]

Well, it depends a lot on what you are looking for.

Obviously if you want to make a career of flying ACMI, then the more static outfits might be your thing. While Southern has some decent long term potential, for the near term it is going to be in a real state of flux.

Look to the regional industry that you are probably more familiar with for a decent comparison. Some regionals actually are decent places to stay and make a career, but they tend to be the more stable and static of the lot vs. the hyper-growth and chaotic companies like Republic/CHQ/ShAmr...

All in all, most regionals are alike, but you have to decide what your long term goals are to see which outfit best matches your needs.

Anyways, my goal was to provide better information regarding Southern Air, as much of what has been on here lately was tainted by the bad blood (some had) regarding the absorbtion of Cargo 360, or from others that never worked for (but seem to have to share an opinion about) Southern.

While I understand where the C360 guys are coming from, I still have to keep some pride in the job I do (and where I do it at)... So I figured it might be time to explain a few things about a airline that I work for.

The company is by no means UPS or FedEx, but it is not that bad either. It is pretty much what you should expect from a non scheduled, international, cargo ACMI company that has more than tripled in size in the last two years...

So there ya go, hope my posts shed some light upon things for ya, so you could decide for yourselves if Southern was right for you.



Blue Skies.

 

[gear_yanker]

Let's be completely honest and not omit some key facts:

1. Southern uses the possibility of being a "Captain qualified F/O" as bait to fill the classes. The truth is that this happens very rarely and only to those who perform exceptionally well during initial training. The majority of guys who have accomplished this have had previous large jet command experience. It is extremely unlikely that someone coming from a commuter/regional aircraft background could perform well enough during initial training to be considered for the left seat, especially if a guy is coming from something modern, with glass.

2. There are no other 747 operators at this level of the industry that require new hires to sign a training bond. And don't compare Southern to World in this respect. Southern doesn't PIC type new hires.....World does. And 747 F/O time on your resume is nearly useless these days, thanks to the large number of "training mills" like Southern, Tradewinds and Focus.

I do agree that ACMI flying offers the same lifestyle wherever you decide to work. That's all the more reason to avoid Southern and their training bond!!

 

[On Your Six]

No operator is perfect, but I still think Kalitta sounds like a better deal than Southern, Evergreen and a few others. I hear upgrades are pretty quick at Kalitta too.

I don't know why some people are so he11-bent on Southern - it ain't that great from what I have heard...

 

[dakotaHC8]

Let's be completely honest and not omit some key facts:

Really...?

Because in the last year there have been 16 of these Captain Qual'd F/O's, and a number of additional pilots who were offered the chance (yet wanted to get some right seat time first). Most have since "upgraded", and now have full status as a Captain, and two were even promoted to Check Airman.

But why let reality get in the way of your "honest facts"...?

No one suggested that anyone other than a highly qualified pilot would be eligible for such a thing, and to imply such is just showing your bias against Southern Air.

Yeah, not everyone get's offered 4 stripes when they walk in the door, no duh... But the upgrade is running around just over a year's time regardless. (Except for the handful that are just not capable - like a number of First Officers at every airline I have flown at - incld. a Major).

So I stand by my assertion that Southern does has rapid advancement, and that if you ARE Captain QUALIFIED, then there might be a position as a Captain Qualified First Officer (if the company needs em and they think you are ready)

As for the training bond. It did not exist when I signed on, but I doubt that it would have made a major differenece to me if it had. I planned on being here at least 2 years... Anything shorter seems like a waste of time (going thru groundschool, training, and IOE just to leave soon thereafter).

If you are good enough to get on with Southern, you can probably get on with Atlas or Kalitta (or whoever else) right now that you might have left SA for, so why bother coming here in the first place if you are just gonna leave...?

Do you enjoy sitting in classrooms or something...???

I'm sorry anyone's career plan of jumping ship, before the ink is dry on your new B747 type got a little sidetracked by a training contract. I guess it goes against the character of Southern being a "Training Mill". Hopefully your new employer can be more understanding about your feelings and needs Sport.

You called me out as a Liar by telling me to be honest + inclusive with the facts about Southern, which was BS. Nothing I have said was a lie, and I have not sugarcoated working for Southern one bit.

I'm just handing out information on my workplace for people (interested in the company) to make up their own minds. Southern has never been a place for just anyone (from the Southern Air Transport days to the present), but it is a good place for others.

So unless you have real information to add... (as the training bond was mentioned already + your "facts" about the captain Qual'd F/O program were wrong), feel free to stick to airlines that you actually know something about. (which is the whole purpose behind flightinfo.com)


Merry Christmas

 

[gear_yanker]

Wow.....You've completely missed the point!

The Chief Pilot tells all applicants that they could be used as a Captain qualified F/O. He does this to fill the classes. In actuality, very few F/Os are used as Captain prior to upgrading in seniority order. Your numbers support this.

As far as a fast upgrade, I completely agree. Most intelligent applicants see this and ask themselves why. Growth or attrition? You can't really attribute the hiring for the planes coming from C360 as growth, as these planes all had/have fully qualified crews flying them. The vast majority of these highly experienced professionals chose to move on rather than work for a scumbag outfit like Southern. The current Southern hiring is due to ATTRITION and intelligent applicants must wonder why so many people are leaving.

I've never met a pilot who took a job with the intention of quitting after he received training. When companies like Southern ask for a training bond it should set off alarm bells. Why are so many pilots quitting? The answer is easy. The crews are treated poorly (loss of days off for one thing) and they vote with their feet. When you sign away your right to vote with your feet (as is the case when you sign a $24,000 training bond) you become nothing more than an INDENTURED SERVANT!!

Merry Christmas to you. The holiday season must be very special when viewed through rose-colored glasses.

 

[mrvmo]

As a former SA guy, I believe Dakota paints a very accurate pic of what SA is all about. For those interested in SA, his posts are honest, accurate, and and contain all things one must consider before getting into SA or any other ACMI.

 

[dutch747]

There are two sides to every story and I believe that while one is drinking the koolaid, the other opinions warrant consideration.

 

[Dream2fly]

U don't like it, Don't come over.....
this type of operation is not for everyone.
Whiners, please stay away.
I am trying to enjoy what I have.

 

[ironspud]

As a former SA guy, I believe Dakota paints a very accurate pic of what SA is all about. For those interested in SA, his posts are honest, accurate, and and contain all things one must consider before getting into SA or any other ACMI.

Ditto to dat man.

 

[dakotaHC8]

Wow.....You've completely missed the point!

I did not miss the point. You have a beef with Southern because of the recent Cargo 360 merger, and you wanted to hijack the thread to continue to badmouth the place.

Was there some other point to your thread, or did you just feel a need to call me dishonest...?

The Chief Pilot tells all applicants that they could be used as a Captain qualified F/O. He does this to fill the classes.

No, he does not.

There is a range of experience in our applicant pool, and only the more capable pilots avail. at any given time get offered this.

In actuality, very few F/Os are used as Captain prior to upgrading in seniority order. Your numbers support this.

No, my numbers make you look like you really don't know what you are talking about.

What you stated as happening "very rarely" happened to around 20% of our newhire pilots, that's one out of every five.

The reality is that the company waits to see what kind of aviator you are, before finally deciding to drop someone into the left seat. Do you have a problem with that...?

Not everyone that Southern interviews is qualified to assume command of a B747 right off, so your claim that everyone is told that they might be able to do so is suspect.

As far as a fast upgrade, I completely agree. Most intelligent applicants see this and ask themselves why. Growth or attrition? You can't really attribute the hiring for the planes coming from C360 as growth, as these planes all had/have fully qualified crews flying them. The vast majority of these highly experienced professionals chose to move on rather than work for a scumbag outfit like Southern. The current Southern hiring is due to ATTRITION and intelligent applicants must wonder why so many people are leaving.

Ahhh, no (again).

We've had people leave. But it's not that great an exodus towards the door. Not counting the ones that left to recall to a major (or retired), I'd say I'm surprised how many stick around here (in comparison to other operations I have known).

The place has grown from 4 planes (when I hired on 2 yrs ago), to 12 with more on the way. I guess you could blame some of our hiring on replacing attrition, but to discount our growth, once again makes you sound like you really don't know what you are talking about.

I've never met a pilot who took a job with the intention of quitting after he received training. When companies like Southern ask for a training bond it should set off alarm bells. Why are so many pilots quitting? The answer is easy. The crews are treated poorly (loss of days off for one thing) and they vote with their feet. When you sign away your right to vote with your feet (as is the case when you sign a $24,000 training bond) you become nothing more than an INDENTURED SERVANT!!

It's not like Southern gets you drunk and tricks you into signing the contract... If you don't like the idea of signing one, then don't apply.

It's not like anyone is painting Southern Air to be a "Shangri-la" of aviation to trick you into signing up either. If your feelings get hurt easily, and you miss your Mommy if you are away from home too long, then don't apply.

Make no mistake, Southern is a tough place to work at. But understand that it is that which makes it worthwhile + quality flight experience. I have nothing to be ashamed of working for Southern Air, because our pilots overcome a myriad of unique challenges, in a variety of places... And still get the job done.

If you are the type that would rather sit + bitch, than do the job you were hired for, then for God's sake, don't apply to Southern.

It's as simple as that. Sign on the door 'sez there's a two year commitment. As long as it stays up, no sense in whining about it. (esp. if you have no plans to work there). Just walk past this door, and the many others that also have a training contract.

Awhile back, I did not want to cough up the dough to pay for my own background screening and drug test just to apply to Cargo 360... So I did not apply there.

But you did, right...?

See how "freedom of choice" works...???

Merry Christmas to you. The holiday season must be very special when viewed through rose-colored glasses.

Once again a snide remark to attack me personally.

Sorry you are so bitter about your Cargo 360 going away. I had nothing to do with that.

But hopefully over time, you (and the others that seem so disgruntled) will gain a better perspective that things turned out pretty good for you (as mergers go)...

When finding out (as a surprise) that your company will now ceases to operate (vs. half a year's notice), or you get merged into another pilot group and placed behind all of their pilots (if kept at all), or cannot cash your last paycheck (instead of having a large severance or retention package to choose from)...

Well let's just say that having been through all of those things myself, I tend to look at things differntly than you, but never through rose colored lenses. And FYI, Koolaid is for kids... I drink Gunniess, thank you.

Good luck to you, wherever you ended up. Please feel free to tell people on here about that operation (instead of an airline that you don't work for, and really know nothing about).

Blue Skies

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

8,
Does Mike Hartley have anything to do with Southern?

 

[mrvmo]

Not anymore....he retired about a year and a half ago.

 

[gear_yanker]

You have a beef with Southern because of the recent Cargo 360 merger, and you wanted to hijack the thread to continue to badmouth the place.

No, not at all. But I do have a problem when a management cheerleader comes on a public forum and tries to misrepresent the current situation at Southern.

Southern is not the place to work if you have any other options at all. You can fly the 747 somewhere else that upgrades just as fast. What's the difference? The other places DON'T REQUIRE YOU TO SIGN A TRAINING BOND!! And some of the other places even have a proper union and a contract with teeth. Southern has become an employer of last resort. Better than nothing, if you're already unemployed.

Your numbers concerning Captain qualified F/Os represent those hired prior to the training bond. The experience level of those hired since the implementation of the bond is much lower. There are just not many highly experienced guys around who are willing to soil the profession by signing a training bond to get a job at a bottom-feeder outfit like Southern.

The next time you say I don't know anything about Southern, I'll publish the full text of the training "agreement" for everyone to see. I bet that would slow the number of guys willing to travel to CT at their own expense. And I bet your "daddy" in Norwalk might not be too happy with you either.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Gentlemen;

First off; Training Bonds are all a matter of cause & effect. They are put in place to stave off a tremendous amount of financial loss by people receiving type ratings for "free" and then bolting out the door. Granted life at many ACMI's really stinks in the first year and some people might consider that it's people "voting with their feet". That might be the case in some instances, but there have been a number of people that just take advantage of the situation. I know of one person that went to SAI, then went to Atlas & last I heard was jumping over to CX with his freshly minted -400 type. Focus was telling people that they should go to SAI & Tradewinds, get typed and then with their 2 Billion in initial operating cash they would hire you away from those other "loser" companies.

There is enough information out there that people would know exactly what they are getting into when they work for an ACMI.

The differences between the myriad of ACMI operators is slight. If it is not one thing, it's another. If you don't want to sign a training agreement (World, SAI), pay for your lodging while in training (Kalitta - at least recently), pay for your own background check & urinanalysis (Cargo 360), not receive per diem while on the aircraft (Cargo 360), get charged a $100.00 a month home basing fee (World), get payed only what the line was originally worth & battle with 60 day bids & close to no chance of overtime (Focus - initially), get told by the company owner that your employment there means that you are a complete loser (Tradewinds), have your wages frozen indefinitely (Gemini), get furloughed at the drop of a hat (all ACMI but Evergreen most specifically), have management pitch two pilot groups into a figurative punch up so that they could more effectively scr*w them, (Atlas & Polar), get based in GB on your own dime (Atlas), tax your lodging (Atlas), and more other permutations and situations than you can possibly imagine then DON'T GO TO WORK FOR AN ACMI!!!

There are LOTS of majors & other operators out there that are hiring, go there!

One other thing; All these operators for the most part keep their people out on the road for the better part of close to 20 days. All applicants are told this INITIALLY at all places. When your out on the road for 14 days don't start whining about how unfair it is. You signed up for it and knew what you were getting into. Yes it's painful at times, but it's more of a pain when you all try to get some kind of Regional schedule going. I want all my days off in a row & and not broken up to some BS 2 days at home and then back out on the road!

ACMI is hard, and is not the glamorous passenger flying major airline job. There is certainly room for improvement at the ACMI's. Just quit your b*tching about the basics. There are bigger & more important issues that need to be addressed. Two right off the bat are Maintenance & Fatigue (for all people!) Now if you want to b*tch about that and come up with some suggestions then I might listen.

Another thing, I listed just some of the different situations that occurs at a bunch of these operators. Some of these were from direct experience and some was from well known & discussed events. A lot of opinions about SPECIFICS that get voiced here are from people that have had absolutely NO experience working at these different places. Keep to what you know and don't make wild ASSumptions to just what you think is going on.

Happy Holidays!

Good Luck To Us All!