JC Resigns Comair MEC

[Heavy Set]

Didn't know, didn't care. Bottom line is that Delta pilots were picking up open flying while you still had guys on furlough. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but you were still lining your own pockets at your fellow pilot's expense. Nobody forced individual pilots to pick up time.

Losing a Federal Court case isn't a good enough reason to stop picking up overtime? Do you usually go against the Court's wishes? Any restraining orders against you? You probably don't care. She does, though.

 

[PCL_128]

And you believe whatever management says, right? No wonder you were gullible enough to rent time in a 1900.

It doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, because it would have cost the CMR MEC nothing to support the furloughees and request that management help them. Instead, they tried to take advantage of the situation to extract scope concessions.

 

[sweptback]

Losing a Federal Court case isn't a good enough reason to stop picking up overtime? Do you usually go against the Court's wishes? Any restraining orders against you? You probably don't care. She does, though.

Delta was not in Section 6 negotiations during their round of furloughs after 9/11. Apples and oranges.

 

[TurboAWD]

General, sometimes I agree with you, but you have way to much faiith in mgmt and, like most DL pilots, seem to be against job actions.

As far as the "one billion" dollars that "Comair pilots" "cost Delta" while trying to raise the bar (btw, if it was so unreasonably expensive, why didn't DL just pay up earlier?), what makes you think they wouldn't have just used that money for more worthless stock buybacks?

And as far as them not scoping out DCI flying, DL Mainline certainly has never done a fanstastic job of scoping out your own flying... glass houses and all that.

Now, on to something postitve, THANK YOU DELTA PILOTS FOR NOT SELLING OUT YOUR NEW HIRES. Every other legacy pilot group should be looking at your first year rates and asking themsleves "why did we sell out our new guys so much?".


Turbo

 

[General Lee]

Delta was not in Section 6 negotiations during their round of furloughs after 9/11. Apples and oranges.

So, after losing the case the first time, we should just go ahead and stop flying overtime again, and risk losing another verdict? We lost one time, and we wouldn't lose again? It would probably have been the same judge. Don't you think Delta would have gone back to the same judge? You don't? Apples and oranges my ARSE. Wake up. Anytime the "status quo" would have been interrupted, Delta would have gone back to court. We couldn't believe we lost the first time.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General, sometimes I agree with you, but you have way to much faiith in mgmt and, like most DL pilots, seem to be against job actions.

As far as the "one billion" dollars that "Comair pilots" "cost Delta" while trying to raise the bar (btw, if it was so unreasonably expensive, why didn't DL just pay up earlier?), what makes you think they wouldn't have just used that money for more worthless stock buybacks?

And as far as them not scoping out DCI flying, DL Mainline certainly has never done a fanstastic job of scoping out your own flying... glass houses and all that.

Now, on to something postitve, THANK YOU DELTA PILOTS FOR NOT SELLING OUT YOUR NEW HIRES. Every other legacy pilot group should be looking at your first year rates and asking themsleves "why did we sell out our new guys so much?".


Turbo

Against job actions? George Bush stated before the Summer that we planned something that "there will be no strikes this Summer." (2000) He did NOT say that about Comair. And when it comes to "job actions", we are primarily responsible for stopping the USAir buyout. Read the article about Moak in the Majors section. Moak spearheaded the battle against them.

Yes, the Comair strike added $1 billion to the additional $2 billion loss for the stock buy back after 9-11. You can speculate that Delta would have used the other money for a buy back, but in reality you have to add them togther to get what really happened. We were about $3 billion in the hole shortly after 9-11---and none of that was due to Delta pilots and their "expensive" contract.

And yes, our first year rates are pretty good compared to other legacies for our newhires. They deserve it, and 2nd year pay jumps $25 an hour for 757/767 FO (a realistic position for 2nd year these days) and another $20 for 3rd year pay. So, 2 years and 1 day after you are hired at Delta (your date of hire), you can be making $90 or more an hour flying a 757/767 (third year pay starts 1 day after your second anniversary). Not bad.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TurboAWD]

Against job actions?

I still think there is a bit of a "corporate culture" amongs Delta pilots that says "don't rock the boat too much". But then again, I don't work there, so what do I know...

You can speculate that Delta would have used the other money for a buy back, but in reality you have to add them togther to get what really happened.

Isn't it really the same either way? Money down the tubes. And I still don't understand why you have so much distaste for the Comair pilots in this senario but not for your own mgmt team that let them walk rather than pay up a contract. I can't believe that they were anywhere close to $1b at the bargaining table before the strike. I bet they weren't even $100m apart.

 

[General Lee]

I still think there is a bit of a "corporate culture" amongs Delta pilots that says "don't rock the boat too much". But then again, I don't work there, so what do I know...



Isn't it really the same either way? Money down the tubes. And I still don't understand why you have so much distaste for the Comair pilots in this senario but not for your own mgmt team that let them walk rather than pay up a contract. I can't believe that they were anywhere close to $1b at the bargaining table before the strike. I bet they weren't even $100m apart.

We did rock the boat when we initially got the 777s. We wouldn't fly them unless they gave huge raises to everyone, across the board. Each aircraft type got raises, and the 757 and 767 were both tied together (757 brought up to 767 rates). Our C2K contract helped raise the bar for everyone, including Southwest and Fedex.

As far as Comair, Leo Mullin was not going to give in, thanks to every other airline CEO pressuring him not to. High pay rates was the primary thing Lawson wanted, and Leo wasn't going to do it. Had he come down a bit and added better scope protection for CVG, it may have worked. Instead, the strike failed, it cost us money, and it cost the Comair pilots some pay and protection.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Nindiri]

No, it still doesn't excuse picking up open time while pilots are on furlough. While the court may have eventually ruled against you again, you didn't even try. And nothing forces individual pilots to pick up overtime. Bottom line: Delta guys picked up extra flying while pilots were on furlough.

 

[doh]

I sense a little anger from the Gen. Comair couldn't have cost you money General, you are "two seperate companies". I heard that ad nauseum. And as for it costing them "protection", that is garbage. Comair would never have had protection in the Mother Ship's world. NEVER! So please spare me the spin. We wer doomed from the start, but for one shining moment we stood up to the evil that is the Mother Ship. And we wiped it's eye. We would be in the same boat today had we not done that. Delta would never and has never done a thing for us. kill them all, and let God sort them out! All the best to JC, where ever he goes. And yes, he screwed the pooch on the furloughs. But Delta had screwed the Comair pilots a thousand times over before that, so his one mistake pales in comparison to the evil of Delta. And now back to your regularly scheduled bashing of the Comair pilots...

 

[FDJ2]

Nice try, GL, but it still doesn't excuse picking up open time while pilots are on furlough.

Quite a few furloughs in the industry these last few years. Were the DAL pilots who picked up flying, the only ones picking up flying? Or was that going on at other airlines also?

 

[Nindiri]

If they were, that is their problem and they will answer to their own pilotgroups for it. But in this case, some are accusing the Comair pilots of not supporting furloughed Delta pilots, yet it turns out that some Delta pilots themselves were making extra money at the expense of their own furloughed coworkers. If you're going to criticize another pilot group, then you should lead by example.

 

[PuffDriver]

I sense a little anger from the Gen. Comair couldn't have cost you money General, you are "two seperate companies". I heard that ad nauseum. And as for it costing them "protection", that is garbage. Comair would never have had protection in the Mother Ship's world. NEVER! So please spare me the spin. We wer doomed from the start, but for one shining moment we stood up to the evil that is the Mother Ship. And we wiped it's eye. We would be in the same boat today had we not done that. Delta would never and has never done a thing for us. kill them all, and let God sort them out! All the best to JC, where ever he goes. And yes, he screwed the pooch on the furloughs. But Delta had screwed the Comair pilots a thousand times over before that, so his one mistake pales in comparison to the evil of Delta. And now back to your regularly scheduled bashing of the Comair pilots...

Why don't you elaborate on the "many" times that Delta pilots screwed over the Comair pilots, and I will dispel them for you. The problem was that JC and cronies thought they had far more leverage against the Delta pilots than they did. I was a part of the strike operation in MCO, and we actually all but set up the Comair strike center as they had no idea what they were doing. Sounds like lending a hand to me. Comair and ASA were offered an olive branch in the form of setting up a flow through and wanted no part of it. Probably regretting that decision now as once again they thought that they had more power than they did. ASA and Comair were both asked to support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots in exchange for preferential interviews. JC flat refused citing that it would create an unsafe cockpit situation. Asa welcomed them with semi-open arms. How many went over? 5-10?

So there you have it. While our pilots do indeed pick up open time with furloughed pilots, it's contractually allowed. I daresay at 250/hr that many senior Comair pilots would pick up a 20 hour trip as well with pilots out on the street. Not really about Comair thought, is it? Merely a red herring on your part in order to try and escape the Comair support of an over-egod chair.

But if you want unity, fine. The Delta pilots single-handedly put down the Delta buyout from USAir. It would have been disastrous in the way of future Delta career and hiring. Hey, speaking of hiring, do you know the number of ASA pilots hired vs the number of Comair pilots hired? I do, and it is NOT pretty. But you got that feel good coalition known as the RJDC. How much did you give to them and what did you get back? Make sure to thank them for what is undoubtedly a large reason for the lack of Comair new-hires.

Good luck to you sir.

 

[DrewBlows]

It isn't really relevant anyway, because the CMR MEC's support should have been a given. DALPA shouldn't even have to ask for something so common sense.

If Comair's MEC would have asked Comair management to change it's position, Comair would have asked for something in return. Comair management gives it's employees NOTHING without something in return. Why should Comair pilots have taken concessions to get Delta pilots hired without something in return?

I agree, Comair's MEC should have asked management to change their position (they eventually did but the issue was moot by that point), but the result would have been the same without givebacks from the pilots, which obviously wasn't going to happen.

 

[PCL_128]

If Comair's MEC would have asked Comair management to change it's position, Comair would have asked for something in return. Comair management gives it's employees NOTHING without something in return. Why should Comair pilots have taken concessions to get Delta pilots hired without something in return?

I agree, Comair's MEC should have asked management to change their position (they eventually did but the issue was moot by that point), but the result would have been the same without givebacks from the pilots, which obviously wasn't going to happen.

And if Comair management had asked for concessions in return, then JC should have responded "fu&^ no." Pretty simple. DALPA never requested that the CMR pilots give up anything to achieve this. They simply wanted a statement of support from the CMR MEC. JC refused to even give them that.