JC Resigns Comair MEC

[Occam's Razor]

JC is a good man. I've worked with him a lot.

His leadership during the '01 strike was superb. I witnessed it first-hand.

I wish him well.

 

[N2264J]

His "need for greed" in getting the highest pay for regionals netted us a $1 billion loss at mainline...Why again could you not help our furloughed pilots?

When the Comair pilots went on strike, it cost Delta, by their own admission, some $680 million dollars. That's $680 million dollars no longer available to say, fund a pension plan or help finance new aircraft for mainline pilots to fly.

Many Delta pilots had Delta stock in their 401K and the strike had an adverse impact on its value. So is it reasonable to assume Delta pilots, who are big on talking the "union" talk, have a deep seated resentment and animosity toward Comair pilots for striking their airline?

They kept saying we are separate airlines but that's not the way it really is, is it?

Everyone "knows" the regionals are supposed to be a stepping stone and not a career. Apparently, we're not even allowed to aspire to make our airline a career. But the Delta pilots found themselves in an awkward position. (No Delta pilots bothered to walk our picket line after they closed the deal on their contract). As union "brothers," they wouldn't be able to say in public what they really felt because the strike was considered throughout the industry, both inside and outside of ALPA, by mainline and "regional" alike, as a success.

As accolades were showered on Comair pilots as the strike progressed, mainline pilots gritted their teeth - only three people crossed the line (one ex management, one already retired) and Comair pilots were praised for their unity while the mainliners bit their tongues. Comair pilots got to wear a star on their ALPA wings and while the Delta pilots couldn't, their ears turned red as a symbol of the "pecking order" had been stood on its head.

The accrimony grew and they needed a canard so they could rebuke the Comair pilots under the guise of playing "union brothers as victims." Enter the furloughees.

So while Delta pilots were picking up open time as fast as they could which has the affect of keeping the furloughees furloughed, they slam Comair pilots to this very day about a management hiring policy.

 

[PCL_128]

You had me agreeing with your right up until the point that you started defending the MEC's actions on the DAL furloughee situation. Sorry, but there's just no way to defend that.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

GL is almost comical at this point and the Glass House comment is right on. CMR MEC thought they were acting in their own best faith, they were approved to strike, and all the union-back patters did so for their sticking it to management and trying to raise the bar. Retrospect is sorta easy to denigrate eh? GL--won't you just ever go away or you just like hanging with the in-crowd [since yours ignores you]?

 

[C425Driver]

I agree that JC and the MEC should have tried to persuade Comair management to change their hiring policy for furloughed pilots, but only if our back was scratched, too. In conversations that I had with JC and other members of our MEC in the crew lounge, they told me that the DAL MEC wanted the seniority number resignation issue lifted as well as preferential hiring at Comair. In return Comair pilots would get preferential interviewing at DAL - not preferential hiring. They wanted a lot from us with very little in return - there was room for more negotiations between the two pilot groups to come to an amicable agreement and the opportunity was not siezed. Instead, both sides turned their noses up to the other and cried foul on each other.

Even if the Comair MEC agreed to this all they could have done was ask for a change - it is a Comair policy, not a union policy. There is no guarantee that Regional Randy, Phred Betrayal, or anyone else at the Comair GO would have changed anything to help a pilot in need. My personal belief is even if the MEC did ask for a change nothing would have come of it. Perhaps the blame should be shifted, at least partially, to the Comair management for having such a policy. No, I guess it's self-serving to only blame JC and the Comair pilots.

There are many things that I agree with as well as disagree with as far as JC and the MEC go during my 5 years at Comair. I think he was a good leader and motivator during the strike and he was a great advocate for the regional pilot in a union where the regional pilot is looked down upon as a second-rate citizen by it's top national leaders. However, the pre-bankruptcy concessions were unfathomable to me. I still can't believe it ever went to a vote. I was a very junior Captain at the time and I had a lot to gain by adding 45 new aircraft to the fleet but I still voted against the concessions because I felt it was wrong on so many levels. It became even worse when it was revealed that Phred Betrayal (or was his first name Fraud?) made a promise to the pilot group to get all of these shiny new airframes when he couldn't get financing.

I left Comair and the regional airline industry shortly after the first round of concessions went into effect. When I walked through the turnstyle for the last time I left behind any anger and angst I had toward anyone or any group. I worked with some of the best people in my career and I appreciate the time that I had at Comair. I wish JC all the best.

 

[PCL_128]

I agree that JC and the MEC should have tried to persuade Comair management to change their hiring policy for furloughed pilots, but only if our back was scratched, too. In conversations that I had with JC and other members of our MEC in the crew lounge, they told me that the DAL MEC wanted the seniority number resignation issue lifted as well as preferential hiring at Comair. In return Comair pilots would get preferential interviewing at DAL - not preferential hiring. They wanted a lot from us with very little in return - there was room for more negotiations between the two pilot groups to come to an amicable agreement and the opportunity was not siezed.

Wow, that's some great revisionist history, but that's not what took place at all. DALPA scheduled a meeting with JC to discuss this issue, because CMR management had specifically stated that the reason they would not change their policy is because the pilots wouldn't support it. When The DAL MEC Chair showed up to the meeting, instead of JC being there, he was met by the Executive Admin. The EA proceeded to state that for the CMR MEC's position to change, that DALPA would have to agree to talk about easing their scope restrictions on CMR. It had nothing to do with pref hiring of CMR pilots, it was all about further eroding DALPA scope. Since the loss of scope was directly responsible for the furloughees in the first place, it would be asinine for DALPA to consider easing scope yet more, resulting in the furloughed pilots being out of a job for even longer. The DAL Chairman stated that he refused to discuss scope concessions, that this was about one MEC helping the furloughed brothers of another MEC, and that he was only there to discuss the change of the CMR MEC's policy. The EA said that there was nothing further to discuss in that case, and the DAL Chairman walked out.

 

[Nindiri]

Is it true that Delta pilots were picking up open time while there were still pilots on furlough? If true, then it's hard to have very much sympathy for their complaints about the Comair MEC's policy on Delta furloughs. Lead by example.

 

[General Lee]

GL is almost comical at this point and the Glass House comment is right on. CMR MEC thought they were acting in their own best faith, they were approved to strike, and all the union-back patters did so for their sticking it to management and trying to raise the bar. Retrospect is sorta easy to denigrate eh? GL--won't you just ever go away or you just like hanging with the in-crowd [since yours ignores you]?

Glass house, eh? It's great that they tried to get the high pay. Any striking group is obviously going for high pay. But, they went up against Leo Mullin and he crushed them, and they still didn't get what they wanted. The unsuccessful strike cost us (mainline) $1 billion (which hurt after 9-11), and the result was a modest pay increase, and hardly any SCOPE, which was exploited by Leo later on. CVG was invaded by other carriers, and the result now is a smaller Comair, lower pay, BK, and JC Lawson leaving. We all got pay cuts in BK, but Comair is continually getting hammered, and will for awhile.

And no, I won't go away, especially on Comair issues. Their actions after 9-11 were ridiculous and incredibly insensitive to many who were furloughed, many just leaving Comair to go to Delta themselves. Lawson knew he was asking for too much, but did anyway. He will be remembered for just that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wmuflyguy]

So did JC get hired at Delta?

 

[General Lee]

Is it true that Delta pilots were picking up open time while there were still pilots on furlough? If true, then it's hard to have very much sympathy for their complaints about the Comair MEC's policy on Delta furloughs. Lead by example.

That probably did happen a bit, but we were capped at 75 hours of pay per month, and the rest went into a bank that filled up pay checks to 75 hours when someone had 70 or so hours that month. Did you know that we were actually sued for not picking up overtime, and LOST. We actually LOST a court case with the Federal Court for not keeping with the status quo. So, any stoppage of picking up overtime would have resulted in damages awarded. But, you didn't know that, did you?


Bye BYe--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

So did JC get hired at Delta?

We are looking for qualified Lav dumpers, and I know JC and John Pennecamp have interviews next week...

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DrewBlows]

DALPA scheduled a meeting with JC to discuss this issue, because CMR management had specifically stated that the reason they would not change their policy is because the pilots wouldn't support it.

Comair management doesn't abide by what IS in the contract. Why would they ask for the pilots permission to do something that has absolutely nothing to do with the contract?

 

[PCL_128]

Comair management doesn't abide by what IS in the contract. Why would they ask for the pilots permission to do something that has absolutely nothing to do with the contract?

It isn't really relevant anyway, because the CMR MEC's support should have been a given. DALPA shouldn't even have to ask for something so common sense.

 

[Nindiri]

But, you didn't know that, did you?
Bye BYe--General Lee

Didn't know, didn't care. Bottom line is that Delta pilots were picking up open flying while you still had guys on furlough. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but you were still lining your own pockets at your fellow pilot's expense. Nobody forced individual pilots to pick up time.

 

[imacdog]

Wow, that's some great revisionist history, but that's not what took place at all. DALPA scheduled a meeting with JC to discuss this issue, because CMR management had specifically stated that the reason they would not change their policy is because the pilots wouldn't support it.

And you believe whatever management says, right? No wonder you were gullible enough to rent time in a 1900.

 

[Heavy Set]

Didn't know, didn't care. Bottom line is that Delta pilots were picking up open flying while you still had guys on furlough. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but you were still lining your own pockets at your fellow pilot's expense. Nobody forced individual pilots to pick up time.

Losing a Federal Court case isn't a good enough reason to stop picking up overtime? Do you usually go against the Court's wishes? Any restraining orders against you? You probably don't care. She does, though.

 

[PCL_128]

And you believe whatever management says, right? No wonder you were gullible enough to rent time in a 1900.

It doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, because it would have cost the CMR MEC nothing to support the furloughees and request that management help them. Instead, they tried to take advantage of the situation to extract scope concessions.

 

[sweptback]

Losing a Federal Court case isn't a good enough reason to stop picking up overtime? Do you usually go against the Court's wishes? Any restraining orders against you? You probably don't care. She does, though.

Delta was not in Section 6 negotiations during their round of furloughs after 9/11. Apples and oranges.

 

[TurboAWD]

General, sometimes I agree with you, but you have way to much faiith in mgmt and, like most DL pilots, seem to be against job actions.

As far as the "one billion" dollars that "Comair pilots" "cost Delta" while trying to raise the bar (btw, if it was so unreasonably expensive, why didn't DL just pay up earlier?), what makes you think they wouldn't have just used that money for more worthless stock buybacks?

And as far as them not scoping out DCI flying, DL Mainline certainly has never done a fanstastic job of scoping out your own flying... glass houses and all that.

Now, on to something postitve, THANK YOU DELTA PILOTS FOR NOT SELLING OUT YOUR NEW HIRES. Every other legacy pilot group should be looking at your first year rates and asking themsleves "why did we sell out our new guys so much?".


Turbo

 

[General Lee]

Delta was not in Section 6 negotiations during their round of furloughs after 9/11. Apples and oranges.

So, after losing the case the first time, we should just go ahead and stop flying overtime again, and risk losing another verdict? We lost one time, and we wouldn't lose again? It would probably have been the same judge. Don't you think Delta would have gone back to the same judge? You don't? Apples and oranges my ARSE. Wake up. Anytime the "status quo" would have been interrupted, Delta would have gone back to court. We couldn't believe we lost the first time.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General, sometimes I agree with you, but you have way to much faiith in mgmt and, like most DL pilots, seem to be against job actions.

As far as the "one billion" dollars that "Comair pilots" "cost Delta" while trying to raise the bar (btw, if it was so unreasonably expensive, why didn't DL just pay up earlier?), what makes you think they wouldn't have just used that money for more worthless stock buybacks?

And as far as them not scoping out DCI flying, DL Mainline certainly has never done a fanstastic job of scoping out your own flying... glass houses and all that.

Now, on to something postitve, THANK YOU DELTA PILOTS FOR NOT SELLING OUT YOUR NEW HIRES. Every other legacy pilot group should be looking at your first year rates and asking themsleves "why did we sell out our new guys so much?".


Turbo

Against job actions? George Bush stated before the Summer that we planned something that "there will be no strikes this Summer." (2000) He did NOT say that about Comair. And when it comes to "job actions", we are primarily responsible for stopping the USAir buyout. Read the article about Moak in the Majors section. Moak spearheaded the battle against them.

Yes, the Comair strike added $1 billion to the additional $2 billion loss for the stock buy back after 9-11. You can speculate that Delta would have used the other money for a buy back, but in reality you have to add them togther to get what really happened. We were about $3 billion in the hole shortly after 9-11---and none of that was due to Delta pilots and their "expensive" contract.

And yes, our first year rates are pretty good compared to other legacies for our newhires. They deserve it, and 2nd year pay jumps $25 an hour for 757/767 FO (a realistic position for 2nd year these days) and another $20 for 3rd year pay. So, 2 years and 1 day after you are hired at Delta (your date of hire), you can be making $90 or more an hour flying a 757/767 (third year pay starts 1 day after your second anniversary). Not bad.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TurboAWD]

Against job actions?

I still think there is a bit of a "corporate culture" amongs Delta pilots that says "don't rock the boat too much". But then again, I don't work there, so what do I know...

You can speculate that Delta would have used the other money for a buy back, but in reality you have to add them togther to get what really happened.

Isn't it really the same either way? Money down the tubes. And I still don't understand why you have so much distaste for the Comair pilots in this senario but not for your own mgmt team that let them walk rather than pay up a contract. I can't believe that they were anywhere close to $1b at the bargaining table before the strike. I bet they weren't even $100m apart.

 

[General Lee]

I still think there is a bit of a "corporate culture" amongs Delta pilots that says "don't rock the boat too much". But then again, I don't work there, so what do I know...



Isn't it really the same either way? Money down the tubes. And I still don't understand why you have so much distaste for the Comair pilots in this senario but not for your own mgmt team that let them walk rather than pay up a contract. I can't believe that they were anywhere close to $1b at the bargaining table before the strike. I bet they weren't even $100m apart.

We did rock the boat when we initially got the 777s. We wouldn't fly them unless they gave huge raises to everyone, across the board. Each aircraft type got raises, and the 757 and 767 were both tied together (757 brought up to 767 rates). Our C2K contract helped raise the bar for everyone, including Southwest and Fedex.

As far as Comair, Leo Mullin was not going to give in, thanks to every other airline CEO pressuring him not to. High pay rates was the primary thing Lawson wanted, and Leo wasn't going to do it. Had he come down a bit and added better scope protection for CVG, it may have worked. Instead, the strike failed, it cost us money, and it cost the Comair pilots some pay and protection.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Nindiri]

No, it still doesn't excuse picking up open time while pilots are on furlough. While the court may have eventually ruled against you again, you didn't even try. And nothing forces individual pilots to pick up overtime. Bottom line: Delta guys picked up extra flying while pilots were on furlough.

 

[doh]

I sense a little anger from the Gen. Comair couldn't have cost you money General, you are "two seperate companies". I heard that ad nauseum. And as for it costing them "protection", that is garbage. Comair would never have had protection in the Mother Ship's world. NEVER! So please spare me the spin. We wer doomed from the start, but for one shining moment we stood up to the evil that is the Mother Ship. And we wiped it's eye. We would be in the same boat today had we not done that. Delta would never and has never done a thing for us. kill them all, and let God sort them out! All the best to JC, where ever he goes. And yes, he screwed the pooch on the furloughs. But Delta had screwed the Comair pilots a thousand times over before that, so his one mistake pales in comparison to the evil of Delta. And now back to your regularly scheduled bashing of the Comair pilots...

 

[FDJ2]

Nice try, GL, but it still doesn't excuse picking up open time while pilots are on furlough.

Quite a few furloughs in the industry these last few years. Were the DAL pilots who picked up flying, the only ones picking up flying? Or was that going on at other airlines also?

 

[Nindiri]

If they were, that is their problem and they will answer to their own pilotgroups for it. But in this case, some are accusing the Comair pilots of not supporting furloughed Delta pilots, yet it turns out that some Delta pilots themselves were making extra money at the expense of their own furloughed coworkers. If you're going to criticize another pilot group, then you should lead by example.

 

[PuffDriver]

I sense a little anger from the Gen. Comair couldn't have cost you money General, you are "two seperate companies". I heard that ad nauseum. And as for it costing them "protection", that is garbage. Comair would never have had protection in the Mother Ship's world. NEVER! So please spare me the spin. We wer doomed from the start, but for one shining moment we stood up to the evil that is the Mother Ship. And we wiped it's eye. We would be in the same boat today had we not done that. Delta would never and has never done a thing for us. kill them all, and let God sort them out! All the best to JC, where ever he goes. And yes, he screwed the pooch on the furloughs. But Delta had screwed the Comair pilots a thousand times over before that, so his one mistake pales in comparison to the evil of Delta. And now back to your regularly scheduled bashing of the Comair pilots...

Why don't you elaborate on the "many" times that Delta pilots screwed over the Comair pilots, and I will dispel them for you. The problem was that JC and cronies thought they had far more leverage against the Delta pilots than they did. I was a part of the strike operation in MCO, and we actually all but set up the Comair strike center as they had no idea what they were doing. Sounds like lending a hand to me. Comair and ASA were offered an olive branch in the form of setting up a flow through and wanted no part of it. Probably regretting that decision now as once again they thought that they had more power than they did. ASA and Comair were both asked to support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots in exchange for preferential interviews. JC flat refused citing that it would create an unsafe cockpit situation. Asa welcomed them with semi-open arms. How many went over? 5-10?

So there you have it. While our pilots do indeed pick up open time with furloughed pilots, it's contractually allowed. I daresay at 250/hr that many senior Comair pilots would pick up a 20 hour trip as well with pilots out on the street. Not really about Comair thought, is it? Merely a red herring on your part in order to try and escape the Comair support of an over-egod chair.

But if you want unity, fine. The Delta pilots single-handedly put down the Delta buyout from USAir. It would have been disastrous in the way of future Delta career and hiring. Hey, speaking of hiring, do you know the number of ASA pilots hired vs the number of Comair pilots hired? I do, and it is NOT pretty. But you got that feel good coalition known as the RJDC. How much did you give to them and what did you get back? Make sure to thank them for what is undoubtedly a large reason for the lack of Comair new-hires.

Good luck to you sir.

 

[DrewBlows]

It isn't really relevant anyway, because the CMR MEC's support should have been a given. DALPA shouldn't even have to ask for something so common sense.

If Comair's MEC would have asked Comair management to change it's position, Comair would have asked for something in return. Comair management gives it's employees NOTHING without something in return. Why should Comair pilots have taken concessions to get Delta pilots hired without something in return?

I agree, Comair's MEC should have asked management to change their position (they eventually did but the issue was moot by that point), but the result would have been the same without givebacks from the pilots, which obviously wasn't going to happen.

 

[PCL_128]

If Comair's MEC would have asked Comair management to change it's position, Comair would have asked for something in return. Comair management gives it's employees NOTHING without something in return. Why should Comair pilots have taken concessions to get Delta pilots hired without something in return?

I agree, Comair's MEC should have asked management to change their position (they eventually did but the issue was moot by that point), but the result would have been the same without givebacks from the pilots, which obviously wasn't going to happen.

And if Comair management had asked for concessions in return, then JC should have responded "fu&^ no." Pretty simple. DALPA never requested that the CMR pilots give up anything to achieve this. They simply wanted a statement of support from the CMR MEC. JC refused to even give them that.