ETPs

[AIRMOTIVE]

Im curious to know the SOPs regarding ETPs. Do you guys enter these in the FMS via Lot/Longs? That being said, do you navigate to them? Do you put the ETPs into the lasertrack or third FMS to keep track of your position relative to the ETPs. What if you dont receive the clearance as it was filed, do you generate new ETPs? A rift has developed within our community of pilots soo... what do you do across the NAT or NOPAC, or anywhere else that requires an equal time point? Thanks in advance!

 

[Tgaug6300]

We use Arinc flight planning services and they provide detailed coordinates of the ETPs. IMHO I think loading these coordinates into the actual flight plan should be discouraged. Due to the complex calculations required to generate those points, they will rarely lie percisely on the assigned track. Loading an ETP into a flight plan could take the aircraft outside the allowable navigation area and cause a GNE.

What we do with a Universal FMS is: under DATA load ETPs as a Pilot Airports, then select Airports for display on the MFD.

With a Collins FMS, go to the DATABASE page, use DEFINE WPT to create a waypoint, then display the point by selecting IDX-FIX and enter the point name under REF.

Just my .02

 

[Spooky 2]

Im curious to know the SOPs regarding ETPs. Do you guys enter these in the FMS via Lot/Longs? That being said, do you navigate to them? Do you put the ETPs into the lasertrack or third FMS to keep track of your position relative to the ETPs. What if you dont receive the clearance as it was filed, do you generate new ETPs? A rift has developed within our community of pilots soo... what do you do across the NAT or NOPAC, or anywhere else that requires an equal time point? Thanks in advance!

Absolutey do not navigate to a ETP Lat/Long. In other words do not put it in the body of your flight plan and while this may be munitia at this hour, your clearance did not include or have anything to do with that ETP waypoint. If corporate aviation ever drags themselves in to FANS arena they will see that with ADS/CPLDC the controlling agency can see eaxctly where you are going just as if they wee looking over your shoulder in the cockpit. When they ask why you are navigating to some obscure wpt along your path as opposed to say 40N130W as in your flight clearance, your going to be writing long letters trying to explain your actions. Not unlike a GNE.

 

[Sammy]

in the primus epic u can input the long. of the ETP and the box will compute the lat. pt. where the long intercepts the flight plan in the FMS. u could then place that pt. in the FMS route. anyone see a problem with this method?

 

[Wiggums]

What if you dont receive the clearance as it was filed, do you generate new ETPs?

Do not enter your ETPs as waypoints.

Yes, do generate new ETPs if you get a reroute.

 

[SuperFLUF]

A common technique in the 121 carrier world is to "float" your ETP's and diversion airports after the active flight plan.

To do this you just create a discontinuity after the last fix on the legs page and enter the divert airport, ETP, divert airport...etc.

They will then appear on the MAP display as non-active waypoints as you fly by them.

 

[Spooky 2]

in the primus epic u can input the long. of the ETP and the box will compute the lat. pt. where the long intercepts the flight plan in the FMS. u could then place that pt. in the FMS route. anyone see a problem with this method?

Sammy as Wiggums says in the next post, do not use ETP waypoints as Active waypoints that you are navigating to. In my previous post I suggested that this was not a legal flight as you did not (I assume) file the flight plan that way, you just modified it without the benefit of a clearance. Big no no, especially in ADS operations. Also, and this is really splitting hairs but you are no longer flying a great circle route between say 130W and 140W when you have put a ETP waypoint that while it appear to fall on you exact flight plan track, it none the less ever so slightly modifies it.

I know of now International Ops training organization that would embrace this concept of flying to a ETP waypoint.

The other post that refers to Part 121 ops is unique to the B767/757 PIP/Pegasus FMS although it may be applicable to others as well, but in the example used the ETP waypoints are never active waypoints for all the reasons I just mentioned.

 

[TransMach]

Another important factor to think about is "just what is an ETP ... an Equal Time Point". The only time that a highly defined (read accurate to all actual conditions) ETP is important is when fuel on arrival at the diversionary airport is schossche (read minimal).

If you've got baggs of gas onboard, the highly defined ETP is an exercise and nothing more.

With lots-a-fuel (my favorite) should something happen you should look at the problem and determine your best option ... play your card ... and go where want and can!

Spooky2 ... chime in here if you like ...

ETP's are only an advisory point, not a regulatory point, all depending on fuel state. You can and should do what is right for your flight should a diversionary/contingency requirement present itself.

ETP's ARE NOT A PART OF YOUR FLIGHT PLAN ROUTE!

TransMach

 

[maximizer]

We simply plot them on a chart and are aware of our position relative to an ETP. Simple.

 

[Tgaug6300]

WOW! For once there is a thread in which everyone agrees on something, with no personal attacks! I think we are all unanimous here. Do not put your ETPs in the box as a waypoint.

 

[Spooky 2]

Do not enter your ETPs as waypoints.

Yes, do generate new ETPs if you get a reroute.

Generally you would not have to build new ETP's if your reroute was only 1 degree off your original course, which is pretty typical for a reroute on say the NA. There are several ways to generate new ETP's for reroutes further than one degree but I suspect most reading this simply call up there flight plan provider and go from there. Ah, for the old days when the real navigator working in his little dark hooch in the rear of the cockpit would refigure these points. Note that I did not say recompute!

 

[AIRMOTIVE]

Great feedback guys. I appreciate all the points made. I will share this with the dissidents.

 

[OldManPilot]

If you can enter the ETP as a "Floating" waypoint then that is the way to go. It does not provide an actualy point as far as a let to navagate to, but allows you to visually see when you have passed your ETP.
Try it! On you FMS after the VERY LAST waypoint on your flight plan (usually a runway, or airport VOR), put in the ETP then creat a dicontinuety between the ETP and last waypoint. This will allow the ETP Lat/Lot to show on the screen.

 

[Spooky 2]

If you can enter the ETP as a "Floating" waypoint then that is the way to go. It does not provide an actualy point as far as a let to navagate to, but allows you to visually see when you have passed your ETP.
Try it! On you FMS after the VERY LAST waypoint on your flight plan (usually a runway, or airport VOR), put in the ETP then creat a dicontinuety between the ETP and last waypoint. This will allow the ETP Lat/Lot to show on the screen.

I think what Old man is saying is that the ETP Lat/Lon coordinates should be after the last wpt in the missed approach for whatever procedure your using? Again this I think is unique to Boeing FMS protocols and might not work on some of the other FMS products out there even though they might be Honeyell products. IF you have the enhanced FIX page that Hoeney offers on some Boeing products lines, then you you can put the Lat/Long directly on the Fix page but not many airlines have opted for this feature. The original MD11 FMS, (non Pegasus) would allow you to build and name a "defined waypoint" using Lat/Long and thus you could put that identifier, what ever you wanted to call it, on the Fix page. The original MD11 FMS was Airbus driven technology so maybe other Airbus products fling around out there today will allow the "defined wpt." solution?

 

[Spooky 2]

If you can enter the ETP as a "Floating" waypoint then that is the way to go. It does not provide an actualy point as far as a let to navagate to, but allows you to visually see when you have passed your ETP.
Try it! On you FMS after the VERY LAST waypoint on your flight plan (usually a runway, or airport VOR), put in the ETP then creat a dicontinuety between the ETP and last waypoint. This will allow the ETP Lat/Lot to show on the screen.

I think what Old man is saying is that the ETP Lat/Lon coordinates should be after the last wpt in the missed approach for whatever procedure your using? Again this I think is unique to Boeing FMS protocols and might not work on some of the other FMS products out there even though they might be Honeyell products. IF you have the enhanced FIX page that Hoeney offers on some Boeing products lines, then you you can put the Lat/Long directly on the Fix page but not many airlines have opted for this feature. The original MD11 FMS, (non Pegasus) would allow you to build and name a "defined waypoint" using Lat/Long and thus you could put that identifier, what ever you wanted to call it, on the Fix page. The original MD11 FMS was Airbus driven technology so maybe other Airbus products fling around out there today will allow the "defined wpt." solution?

 

[Wiggums]

Here is a good one, encountered some guys operating Part 91 that are not calculating ETPs. They claim if they have a contingency that they just look at where they are and decide where they will go. Other then the obvious of not knowing if you have wet footprint I was wondering if there is a legal requirement (other then careless and reckless) to calculate ETPs.

Here is another good one, these guys do not carry a track message. They operate above the tracks and did not understand that they had to be aware of where the tracks were in case of a contingency.

 

[Fokkerflyer]

Always put them on plotting chart and keep track of where you are. Collins Pro Line 4 allows you to display up to 5 fixes on the MFD independent of the FMS flight plan. Create the ETP LAT/LONG's as pilot waypoints and display them that way.

On the GIV we would select the waypoint LAT/LONG page on DU4 which always shows current LAT/LONG and keep track that way.

As someone already said, they're NOT part of your FPL route, merely advisory for your flight based on your alt/speed/fuel. Many ways to skin a cat.

Another good habit is to request the weather for your diversion airport as you approach your ETP's, as that could impact your course of action.

 

[Spooky 2]

Here is a good one, encountered some guys operating Part 91 that are not calculating ETPs. They claim if they have a contingency that they just look at where they are and decide where they will go. Other then the obvious of not knowing if you have wet footprint I was wondering if there is a legal requirement (other then careless and reckless) to calculate ETPs.

Here is another good one, these guys do not carry a track message. They operate above the tracks and did not understand that they had to be aware of where the tracks were in case of a contingency.

Sad but very true and proably all to common in some Part 91 Ops. I can really be difficult to fix a bad case of Stupid. Can't think of any regs other than the catch all...careless, reckless and yes..stupid that would cover this issue.

 

[Wiggums]

Probably why 91 guys are 5% of the traffic but cause 50%+ of the problems.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Another important factor to think about is "just what is an ETP ... an Equal Time Point". The only time that a highly defined (read accurate to all actual conditions) ETP is important is when fuel on arrival at the diversionary airport is schossche (read minimal).

If you've got baggs of gas onboard, the highly defined ETP is an exercise and nothing more.

With lots-a-fuel (my favorite) should something happen you should look at the problem and determine your best option ... play your card ... and go where want and can!

Spooky2 ... chime in here if you like ...

ETP's are only an advisory point, not a regulatory point, all depending on fuel state. You can and should do what is right for your flight should a diversionary/contingency requirement present itself.

ETP's ARE NOT A PART OF YOUR FLIGHT PLAN ROUTE!

TransMach

I don't have Spooky's experience, but I disagree with your opinion.
An ETP shows your nearest (in time) runway. Any inflight emergency could cause a divert to it, not just a low fuel state.

 

[TransMach]

I don't have Spooky's experience, but I disagree with your opinion.
An ETP shows your nearest (in time) runway. Any inflight emergency could cause a divert to it, not just a low fuel state.

Appreciate your opinion ... yes, properly planned your ETP considering (single engine, depress, or true) is the shortest time to an available runway at that point in time under the given circumstance. My point is that it is not always the best diversion alternate when you consider the exact circumstance our your issue.

By example, you are on your way from L.A. to Maui and just as you pass your "true" ETP (all engines, no pressurization issues, all nav functions operative and you're tankering fuel) when one of your passengers who is under the care of a Stanford University doctor develops chest pain ... if you have the fuel, go to San Francisco! In our operation, in a medical emergency we go where The Mayo Clinic tells us to go, fuel, approach availability, airport performance and as good sense dictates.

Don't you think it might be better to fly a little further to a better airport, better weather, better medical facilities, better mechanical facilities .. better anyting that is material to your circumstance than simply diverting to your planned "ETP"?

Aside from not puting your ETP position in the flight plan (really, really bad idea) that is all I was advertising. Your ETP sets are advisory, your circumstance (and your result) may vary depending on your actions.

TransMach

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Appreciate your opinion ... yes, properly planned your ETP considering (single engine, depress, or true) is the shortest time to an available runway at that point in time under the given circumstance. My point is that it is not always the best diversion alternate when you consider the exact circumstance our your issue.

By example, you are on your way from L.A. to Maui and just as you pass your "true" ETP (all engines, no pressurization issues, all nav functions operative and you're tankering fuel) when one of your passengers who is under the care of a Stanford University doctor develops chest pain ... if you have the fuel, go to San Francisco! In our operation, in a medical emergency we go where The Mayo Clinic tells us to go, fuel, approach availability, airport performance and as good sense dictates.

Don't you think it might be better to fly a little further to a better airport, better weather, better medical facilities, better mechanical facilities .. better anyting that is material to your circumstance than simply diverting to your planned "ETP"?

Aside from not puting your ETP position in the flight plan (really, really bad idea) that is all I was advertising. Your ETP sets are advisory, your circumstance (and your result) may vary depending on your actions.

TransMach

Agreed, depending on the problem, there might be better places to go.
Thanks for the clarification, that makes perfect sense.
I think we all agree about not having the ETP as a nav fix.
Not picking nits, but I have to add, after nine years as a field and helo paramedic, chest pain needs the soonest treatment. Every minute, more heart muscle is dying. I know that was just an example, not arguing
Thanks for the reply.

 

[Waldom]

To address the questions in the original post:

My company's S.O.P.s require an E.T.P. to be shown on the flight plan and plotting chart. If receiving a re-route, a new E.T.P. must be computed and plotted. Per our F.O.M., the E.T.P.s are not to be entered in the FMSs.

If there is another diversion point in addition to those on the continents we are flying between, I request that the flight plan show E.T.P.s between all of them. When drawn on the plotting chart and compared to present position, they provide an instant graphical reference to the nearest runway. As an example, on a flight across the North Atlantic, there might be three sets of E.T.P.s. On a more northerly route, that would be CYQX-EINN, CYQX-BIKF, and BIKF-EINN. This is a matter of personal technique and not a company-mandated procedure....and hardly an original idea.

 

[blueskies8]

We simply plot them on a chart and are aware of our position relative to an ETP. Simple.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Spooky 2]

Agreed, depending on the problem, there might be better places to go.
Thanks for the clarification, that makes perfect sense.
I think we all agree about not having the ETP as a nav fix.
Not picking nits, but I have to add, after nine years as a field and helo paramedic, chest pain needs the soonest treatment. Every minute, more heart muscle is dying. I know that was just an example, not arguing
Thanks for the reply.

Okay I'll take this to the next level. First of all we are talking about 1 engine out ETP's (1EO) on two engine aircraft in these discussions as three or four engine aircraft have a completely different set of parameters to observe. Also two engine ETOPS operations have a slew of additional requirements that Part 91 or even Part 135 ops do not observe. Most flight planning organizations working the corporate side of the house will provide not on engine out ETPs, but medical ETPs as well that assume all engines are running as well as PNR Points of no return when operating into some remote airfields that do not support traditional ETP calculations. (mostly remote islands in the Pacific).

In the case of two engine aircraft the regulatory compliance does require you to divert to the nearest suitable airport in time without exception, no matter how much gas you have onboard. Hopefully we are all in agreement with this concept as it sounds as if maybe a few do not accept this fact.

ETP's for three engine aircraft assume you have lost two engines. The L1011-1 (orginal lead sled) could get into a situation where when reaching the ETP between say PHNL and KLAX it would not have enough fuel with two engines inop to reach either KSFO/KOAK or PHOG/PHTO, thus the crew was legally bound to return to it's point of orgin. This did not happen often, but it did happen, mostly during contract negotiations for some reason. Also the subsequent drift down after losing two engines might require you to dump fuel so as to stay out of the water. This requirement was factored in the the required fuel remaining at the 2EO ETP Lat/Long.

As we all saw awhile back BA (747-400) lost an engine on takeoff and continued all the way back to Europe. Didn't break any rules at that time and although they did divert for low fuel prior to reaching London.

None the less it was bascially an acceptable practice
condoned by BA. There was a lot of chest pounding and sound bites but I don't anything came of it.

 

[wtrav8r]

A common technique in the 121 carrier world is to "float" your ETP's and diversion airports after the active flight plan.

To do this you just create a discontinuity after the last fix on the legs page and enter the divert airport, ETP, divert airport...etc.

They will then appear on the MAP display as non-active waypoints as you fly by them.

Can you refresh my memory on how to add a Discontinuty on the Legs Page? I used to do the same thing in the 76 for TW, however, that was 5 years ago and I forgot. I am now operating Collins Proline 21 equipment & trying to fiqure the keystrokes. Thanks

 

[Spooky 2]

Can you refresh my memory on how to add a Discontinuty on the Legs Page? I used to do the same thing in the 76 for TW, however, that was 5 years ago and I forgot. I am now operating Collins Proline 21 equipment & trying to fiqure the keystrokes. Thanks

Let me see if I can walk through this. I'm doing 777 stuff these days but I think it's the same on the PIP or Pegasus and you can probably make it work on others as well.

First of all go the the very end of the flight plan. That would be the very last point in the missed approach if you have loaded the approach at the start. Then insert a bogus way waypoint like KSFO for example, Next insert the Lat/Long of your ETP(s) after the bogus waypoint.
Then...delete the bogus waypoint and you should have a discontinuity which you leave in place. After doing this your Lat/Long should "float" in their respective positions over the top of the magenta line. If they are off course at all, take a hard look at your basic flight plan loading to see if the ETP Lat/Long's are incorrect, or maybe you are 1 degree off in the original flight plan loading. When you put the bogus waypoint in the original flight plan and it's not close to the actaul flight plan, you can expect an Insufficient Fuel" message on a Boeing Honeywell FMS.

There is another way to load ETPs on route two but I prefer the above method over messing with route two as it eliminates the Route Copy functionality that

 

[AIRMOTIVE]

I tried to enter a discontinuity the way you described and I was unsucccesful. When I deleted the bogus waypoint it just closed the gap... no discontinuity. The White Honeywell FMS book was not usefull or instructive on how to create a discontinuity. I am at a loss. Its a Honeywell FMS SWv5.2 on a GIV.

 

[Freight Dog]

In B-737NG, we define ETP using Lat/Long, and then put it in FIX page. This way, it shows along your route of flight merely as an advisory.

 

[AIRMOTIVE]

To my knowledge the Honeywell box we are using does not have a fix page. We can enter fixes lots of ways though...cross points, lat/longs, points abeam. These get line selected and then inputed on the flight plan page. Even if I put a fix after the destination airport or navaid flyover fix it will not show up on the waypoint list or plan view of the ND.