ETPs

[AIRMOTIVE]

Im curious to know the SOPs regarding ETPs. Do you guys enter these in the FMS via Lot/Longs? That being said, do you navigate to them? Do you put the ETPs into the lasertrack or third FMS to keep track of your position relative to the ETPs. What if you dont receive the clearance as it was filed, do you generate new ETPs? A rift has developed within our community of pilots soo... what do you do across the NAT or NOPAC, or anywhere else that requires an equal time point? Thanks in advance!

 

[Tgaug6300]

We use Arinc flight planning services and they provide detailed coordinates of the ETPs. IMHO I think loading these coordinates into the actual flight plan should be discouraged. Due to the complex calculations required to generate those points, they will rarely lie percisely on the assigned track. Loading an ETP into a flight plan could take the aircraft outside the allowable navigation area and cause a GNE.

What we do with a Universal FMS is: under DATA load ETPs as a Pilot Airports, then select Airports for display on the MFD.

With a Collins FMS, go to the DATABASE page, use DEFINE WPT to create a waypoint, then display the point by selecting IDX-FIX and enter the point name under REF.

Just my .02

 

[Spooky 2]

Im curious to know the SOPs regarding ETPs. Do you guys enter these in the FMS via Lot/Longs? That being said, do you navigate to them? Do you put the ETPs into the lasertrack or third FMS to keep track of your position relative to the ETPs. What if you dont receive the clearance as it was filed, do you generate new ETPs? A rift has developed within our community of pilots soo... what do you do across the NAT or NOPAC, or anywhere else that requires an equal time point? Thanks in advance!

Absolutey do not navigate to a ETP Lat/Long. In other words do not put it in the body of your flight plan and while this may be munitia at this hour, your clearance did not include or have anything to do with that ETP waypoint. If corporate aviation ever drags themselves in to FANS arena they will see that with ADS/CPLDC the controlling agency can see eaxctly where you are going just as if they wee looking over your shoulder in the cockpit. When they ask why you are navigating to some obscure wpt along your path as opposed to say 40N130W as in your flight clearance, your going to be writing long letters trying to explain your actions. Not unlike a GNE.

 

[Sammy]

in the primus epic u can input the long. of the ETP and the box will compute the lat. pt. where the long intercepts the flight plan in the FMS. u could then place that pt. in the FMS route. anyone see a problem with this method?

 

[Wiggums]

What if you dont receive the clearance as it was filed, do you generate new ETPs?

Do not enter your ETPs as waypoints.

Yes, do generate new ETPs if you get a reroute.

 

[SuperFLUF]

A common technique in the 121 carrier world is to "float" your ETP's and diversion airports after the active flight plan.

To do this you just create a discontinuity after the last fix on the legs page and enter the divert airport, ETP, divert airport...etc.

They will then appear on the MAP display as non-active waypoints as you fly by them.

 

[Spooky 2]

in the primus epic u can input the long. of the ETP and the box will compute the lat. pt. where the long intercepts the flight plan in the FMS. u could then place that pt. in the FMS route. anyone see a problem with this method?

Sammy as Wiggums says in the next post, do not use ETP waypoints as Active waypoints that you are navigating to. In my previous post I suggested that this was not a legal flight as you did not (I assume) file the flight plan that way, you just modified it without the benefit of a clearance. Big no no, especially in ADS operations. Also, and this is really splitting hairs but you are no longer flying a great circle route between say 130W and 140W when you have put a ETP waypoint that while it appear to fall on you exact flight plan track, it none the less ever so slightly modifies it.

I know of now International Ops training organization that would embrace this concept of flying to a ETP waypoint.

The other post that refers to Part 121 ops is unique to the B767/757 PIP/Pegasus FMS although it may be applicable to others as well, but in the example used the ETP waypoints are never active waypoints for all the reasons I just mentioned.

 

[TransMach]

Another important factor to think about is "just what is an ETP ... an Equal Time Point". The only time that a highly defined (read accurate to all actual conditions) ETP is important is when fuel on arrival at the diversionary airport is schossche (read minimal).

If you've got baggs of gas onboard, the highly defined ETP is an exercise and nothing more.

With lots-a-fuel (my favorite) should something happen you should look at the problem and determine your best option ... play your card ... and go where want and can!

Spooky2 ... chime in here if you like ...

ETP's are only an advisory point, not a regulatory point, all depending on fuel state. You can and should do what is right for your flight should a diversionary/contingency requirement present itself.

ETP's ARE NOT A PART OF YOUR FLIGHT PLAN ROUTE!

TransMach

 

[maximizer]

We simply plot them on a chart and are aware of our position relative to an ETP. Simple.

 

[Tgaug6300]

WOW! For once there is a thread in which everyone agrees on something, with no personal attacks! I think we are all unanimous here. Do not put your ETPs in the box as a waypoint.

 

[Spooky 2]

Do not enter your ETPs as waypoints.

Yes, do generate new ETPs if you get a reroute.

Generally you would not have to build new ETP's if your reroute was only 1 degree off your original course, which is pretty typical for a reroute on say the NA. There are several ways to generate new ETP's for reroutes further than one degree but I suspect most reading this simply call up there flight plan provider and go from there. Ah, for the old days when the real navigator working in his little dark hooch in the rear of the cockpit would refigure these points. Note that I did not say recompute!

 

[AIRMOTIVE]

Great feedback guys. I appreciate all the points made. I will share this with the dissidents.

 

[OldManPilot]

If you can enter the ETP as a "Floating" waypoint then that is the way to go. It does not provide an actualy point as far as a let to navagate to, but allows you to visually see when you have passed your ETP.
Try it! On you FMS after the VERY LAST waypoint on your flight plan (usually a runway, or airport VOR), put in the ETP then creat a dicontinuety between the ETP and last waypoint. This will allow the ETP Lat/Lot to show on the screen.

 

[Spooky 2]

If you can enter the ETP as a "Floating" waypoint then that is the way to go. It does not provide an actualy point as far as a let to navagate to, but allows you to visually see when you have passed your ETP.
Try it! On you FMS after the VERY LAST waypoint on your flight plan (usually a runway, or airport VOR), put in the ETP then creat a dicontinuety between the ETP and last waypoint. This will allow the ETP Lat/Lot to show on the screen.

I think what Old man is saying is that the ETP Lat/Lon coordinates should be after the last wpt in the missed approach for whatever procedure your using? Again this I think is unique to Boeing FMS protocols and might not work on some of the other FMS products out there even though they might be Honeyell products. IF you have the enhanced FIX page that Hoeney offers on some Boeing products lines, then you you can put the Lat/Long directly on the Fix page but not many airlines have opted for this feature. The original MD11 FMS, (non Pegasus) would allow you to build and name a "defined waypoint" using Lat/Long and thus you could put that identifier, what ever you wanted to call it, on the Fix page. The original MD11 FMS was Airbus driven technology so maybe other Airbus products fling around out there today will allow the "defined wpt." solution?

 

[Spooky 2]

If you can enter the ETP as a "Floating" waypoint then that is the way to go. It does not provide an actualy point as far as a let to navagate to, but allows you to visually see when you have passed your ETP.
Try it! On you FMS after the VERY LAST waypoint on your flight plan (usually a runway, or airport VOR), put in the ETP then creat a dicontinuety between the ETP and last waypoint. This will allow the ETP Lat/Lot to show on the screen.

I think what Old man is saying is that the ETP Lat/Lon coordinates should be after the last wpt in the missed approach for whatever procedure your using? Again this I think is unique to Boeing FMS protocols and might not work on some of the other FMS products out there even though they might be Honeyell products. IF you have the enhanced FIX page that Hoeney offers on some Boeing products lines, then you you can put the Lat/Long directly on the Fix page but not many airlines have opted for this feature. The original MD11 FMS, (non Pegasus) would allow you to build and name a "defined waypoint" using Lat/Long and thus you could put that identifier, what ever you wanted to call it, on the Fix page. The original MD11 FMS was Airbus driven technology so maybe other Airbus products fling around out there today will allow the "defined wpt." solution?

 

[Wiggums]

Here is a good one, encountered some guys operating Part 91 that are not calculating ETPs. They claim if they have a contingency that they just look at where they are and decide where they will go. Other then the obvious of not knowing if you have wet footprint I was wondering if there is a legal requirement (other then careless and reckless) to calculate ETPs.

Here is another good one, these guys do not carry a track message. They operate above the tracks and did not understand that they had to be aware of where the tracks were in case of a contingency.

 

[Fokkerflyer]

Always put them on plotting chart and keep track of where you are. Collins Pro Line 4 allows you to display up to 5 fixes on the MFD independent of the FMS flight plan. Create the ETP LAT/LONG's as pilot waypoints and display them that way.

On the GIV we would select the waypoint LAT/LONG page on DU4 which always shows current LAT/LONG and keep track that way.

As someone already said, they're NOT part of your FPL route, merely advisory for your flight based on your alt/speed/fuel. Many ways to skin a cat.

Another good habit is to request the weather for your diversion airport as you approach your ETP's, as that could impact your course of action.

 

[Spooky 2]

Here is a good one, encountered some guys operating Part 91 that are not calculating ETPs. They claim if they have a contingency that they just look at where they are and decide where they will go. Other then the obvious of not knowing if you have wet footprint I was wondering if there is a legal requirement (other then careless and reckless) to calculate ETPs.

Here is another good one, these guys do not carry a track message. They operate above the tracks and did not understand that they had to be aware of where the tracks were in case of a contingency.

Sad but very true and proably all to common in some Part 91 Ops. I can really be difficult to fix a bad case of Stupid. Can't think of any regs other than the catch all...careless, reckless and yes..stupid that would cover this issue.

 

[Wiggums]

Probably why 91 guys are 5% of the traffic but cause 50%+ of the problems.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Another important factor to think about is "just what is an ETP ... an Equal Time Point". The only time that a highly defined (read accurate to all actual conditions) ETP is important is when fuel on arrival at the diversionary airport is schossche (read minimal).

If you've got baggs of gas onboard, the highly defined ETP is an exercise and nothing more.

With lots-a-fuel (my favorite) should something happen you should look at the problem and determine your best option ... play your card ... and go where want and can!

Spooky2 ... chime in here if you like ...

ETP's are only an advisory point, not a regulatory point, all depending on fuel state. You can and should do what is right for your flight should a diversionary/contingency requirement present itself.

ETP's ARE NOT A PART OF YOUR FLIGHT PLAN ROUTE!

TransMach

I don't have Spooky's experience, but I disagree with your opinion.
An ETP shows your nearest (in time) runway. Any inflight emergency could cause a divert to it, not just a low fuel state.