Who's been sleeping on the job?

[Erlanger]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307019,00.html

 

[skyward80]

Sounds like the two pilots in the report should have taken turns napping before starting down. Also, pilots on the road need a little more time on the ground to rest. I get a minimum of 17 hours on the ground wherever I go for Uncle Sam, and that's barely enough to get some sleep (esp with time zone changes).

Sleep well,
Skyward80

 

[AWACoff]

This isn't news. This is reality. Truck drivers in the USA are required to have more rest than airline pilots. We need more rest.

 

[skyaddict]

One of the many areas that I still think if farcical is that rest is not firmly defined as time in hotel for layovers. Transportation time and time waiting for vans, whether the van trip is 5 minutes or 60, should never be definable as rest time, period, IMHO. These things should be covered in the FARs and not left to the vagaries of contracts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. We need more rest.

More rest = change in FARs = act of congress = lobbying = money = ALPA-PAC = getting involved...

OR

More Rest = change in CBA = support for Negotiating Committee = getting involoved...

 

[BeCareful!]

A commercial pilot had recently switched schedules to flying three "red eyes" in a row between Denver and Baltimore with only one hour in between flights.


Wow. Hmmm. Really?



the report continues, saying that the plane was supposed to be traveling at less than 290 mph, but they were moving at a clip of about 590 mph.


Wow. Converting to kts, are they saying that it was below 10,000, supposed to be going 250kts, and that they were well over 500kts?

I don't think so......

 

[Beechnut]

I believe those are speed restrictions on the STARs into Denver.

 

[D-Bo]

A commercial pilot had recently switched schedules to flying three "red eyes" in a row between Denver and Baltimore with only one hour in between flights.


Wow. Hmmm. Really?



the report continues, saying that the plane was supposed to be traveling at less than 290 mph, but they were moving at a clip of about 590 mph.


Wow. Converting to kts, are they saying that it was below 10,000, supposed to be going 250kts, and that they were well over 500kts?

I don't think so......

Yup. This was Frontier and they used to fly F'n red eye TURNS to the easy coast. It's a miracle it only happened once. They discontinued the red eye turns not long after this. It's impossible not to be fatigued on one of those. What happened to them could happen to anybody on a red eye turn.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Yup. This was Frontier and they used to fly F'n red eye TURNS to the easy coast. It's a miracle it only happened once. They discontinued the red eye turns not long after this. It's impossible not to be fatigued on one of those. What happened to them could happen to anybody on a red eye turn.

I guess I always thought a "red-eye" was a late night (local time) departure from the western U.S. that arrived at the destination (usually ORD/DFW and further east) at 0500-0600-ish.

What is a "red-eye" turn and how does someone fly 3 red-eyes with an hour between each flight?

 

[Ex737Driver]

We have two that I know of out of EWR. The first is PSE (Ponce, PR) which leaves at 2300L and returns at 0800L. You have about 1 1/2 hr between legs. This is by far the worst. The other is BON (Bonaire, NA) which leaves at 2355L and returns at 1045L. The good thing about this one is it's a three man crew with a first class seat both ways. We used to do a CCS (Caracas, VZ) turn, which was also a three man crew but not sure if it is a seasonal thing or if it was discontinued. I'm sure there are several out of IAH as well.

 

[ShyFlyGuy]

What is a "red-eye" turn and how does someone fly 3 red-eyes with an hour between each flight?

I think you're close... It's probibally a "red-eye" DEN to the East coast, one shot up or down the coast, and then back home for rest. So it's three legs, not three "red-eye" turns.

Shy

 

[Singlecoil]

I read that to be three nights in a row flying a red-eye turn that had one hour between the legs on the turn. 2 legs a night; one out, one back. Three nights in a row.

 

[J and E's Daddy]

To change the rest and duty regs will take some sort of accident with alot of fatalies.

 

[IronCityBlue]

The press is so ignorant when it comes to what we do that its actually entertaining. Accuracy doesn't matter, and all they want to do is generate fear and sensationalism for the consumers of their product. The public has a natural fear of flying, and wants 100.00000% safety as an entitlement, something no industry on earth offers or ever has or ever will, but yet fares must be point and click specials lower than bus fares.

Meanwhile, any spin on any story that helps pander to the consumer's fear of flying makes money for the media and will contunie to be covered by ignorant reporters, out of context and misrepresented, often times intentionally.

 

[AWACoff]

Half our flying in GUM is redeyes. We have the Saipan Death March. You show around 6pm. Then you deadhead to Saipan. After an hour sit, you fly Manilla-Korror-Yap-Guam. You arrive around 5:30am. We also have GUM-TKK-PNI-TKK-GUM as a redeye. Nothing more fun than hitting a 6000ft piece of dirt in the rain at 2am...

I agree with D-Bo...falling asleep really could happen to everyone. Especially when you do consecutive redeyes.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I brief all my FOs "Don't ever let me wake up and catch you sleeping".

 

[igneousy2]

Even worse then the redeye turns are the standups or the red eyes followed by 9 hours on the ground followed by the return flight followed by a late night report the next day to do it all over again. I have always found that the clock flip is harder on you then the long day. I think the new rule should address this. If you report on day 1 at 1400 and fly until 2200 - you should not have to report at 0600 until you have had at least 48-72 hours off. I can safely work 4 - 12 hour days in a row as long as the 12 hours are more or less the same ones. It's this flipping every 2 days that kills me. Also - the measure needs to be DUTY TIME not flight time. 1 - 5 hour flight is nowhere near as fatiguing as 5 - 45 minute flights even though the 5 legs is less "work" as measured by the FAA.

The FAA has known this has been a problem for YEARS, however they do not have the political clout to effect change.

And incidentally - people have already been killed because of this...

"Contributing to the accident were the flight crew's (1) impaired performance resulting from fatigue and the situational stress associated with the intent to land under the circumstances"

That was from the NTSB report on AA1420 (Little Rock, AK) - I guess 11 people aren't enough.

Later

 

[igneousy2]

Also...I think ALPA needs to come forward with a SOLUTION - instead of just saying there is a problem - come up with a solution people can rally around.

I think a good starting point for Domestic 2 pilot is 10 hours duty time with the subsequent duty time starting no more than 2 hours earlier and finishing no more than 2 hours later then the first duty period. No more than 40 hours on duty in any 7 day period and no more than 160 hours on duty in any 30 consecutive days. Rest begins 60 minutes or the time required to complete all company assigned duties and get to the employees car at the employee lot - whichever is greater - after block-in at the crewmembers domicile or upon the crewmember obtaining adequate sleeping facilities when not in the pilots domicile.

No extensions but I propose no limitations on flight hours. If they build your schedule efficiently they can fly you 10 hours during your 10 hour duty period. However, if they build you too close to the 10 hour duty period that's it you are pumpkin REGARDLESS of the reason for the delay up until that point. 10 would become the new 16. Also should have something like 1 leg is 2 hours or something like that so you can be on duty for 10 hours or 5 legs.

Anyway - the point is we (pilot unions) gotta propose a specific solution we can talk about and campaign for with a unified voice- complaining doesn't do any good. Make the airlines have to say why they can't function with specific limitations even if all of there competitors will be made to follow them also.

Later

Later

 

[nimtz]

We have two that I know of out of EWR. The first is PSE (Ponce, PR) which leaves at 2300L and returns at 0800L. You have about 1 1/2 hr between legs. This is by far the worst.

Everyones favorite avoid statement.
Thanks for this one JetBlue!

 

[NEDude]

To change the rest and duty regs will take some sort of accident with alot of fatalies.

And incidentally - people have already been killed because of this...

"Contributing to the accident were the flight crew's (1) impaired performance resulting from fatigue and the situational stress associated with the intent to land under the circumstances"

That was from the NTSB report on AA1420 (Little Rock, AK) - I guess 11 people aren't enough.

Apparently either not enough people died, or the right people didn't die. The first time a senator or celeb dies on a flight because the pilots were fatigued, you will see action.

 

[rustypigeon]

To change the rest and duty regs will take some sort of accident with alot of fatalies.

They will just call it pilot error. Make sure you say "I'm tired" on the CVR before every takeoff and landing.

 

[twighead]

...falling asleep really could happen to everyone. Especially when you do consecutive redeyes.

Especially after they allow people over 60 to fly.

*runs for cover*

 

[Floatplane]

Everyones favorite avoid statement.
Thanks for this one JetBlue!

What does JetBlue have to do with CO?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

What does JetBlue have to do with CO?

I'm impressed that it took this long to mention jetblue. We as an industry of pilots are the biggest bunch of pussies I've ever heard whine. There is ample rest between flights and I've done plenty of redeyes without any regrets or problems. In fact, as a commuter, I enjoy them because they allow me to return home earlier. Now, whether pilots choose to "rest" during their allotted time is another story. Heck, we've got folks commuting in from Seattle on a redeye and flying all day long-- that's just as bad as falling asleep in the middle of a redeye. Some of these folks are useless during the day and simply unsafe-- by their own choice.

 

[NuGuy]

I'm impressed that it took this long to mention jetblue. We as an industry of pilots are the biggest bunch of pussies.

Maybe, but we know conveinent scapegoats when we see them...

Nu

 

[humuakalaka]

Also...I think ALPA needs to come forward with a SOLUTION - instead of just saying there is a problem - come up with a solution people can rally around.

I think a good starting point for Domestic 2 pilot is 10 hours duty time with the subsequent duty time starting no more than 2 hours earlier and finishing no more than 2 hours later then the first duty period. No more than 40 hours on duty in any 7 day period and no more than 160 hours on duty in any 30 consecutive days. Rest begins 60 minutes or the time required to complete all company assigned duties and get to the employees car at the employee lot - whichever is greater - after block-in at the crewmembers domicile or upon the crewmember obtaining adequate sleeping facilities when not in the pilots domicile.

No extensions but I propose no limitations on flight hours. If they build your schedule efficiently they can fly you 10 hours during your 10 hour duty period. However, if they build you too close to the 10 hour duty period that's it you are pumpkin REGARDLESS of the reason for the delay up until that point. 10 would become the new 16. Also should have something like 1 leg is 2 hours or something like that so you can be on duty for 10 hours or 5 legs.

Anyway - the point is we (pilot unions) gotta propose a specific solution we can talk about and campaign for with a unified voice- complaining doesn't do any good. Make the airlines have to say why they can't function with specific limitations even if all of there competitors will be made to follow them also.

Later

Later

Great post! Totally agree.

 

[Jolly Roger]

The press is so ignorant when it comes to what we do that its actually entertaining. Accuracy doesn't matter, and all they want to do is generate fear and sensationalism for the consumers of their product. The public has a natural fear of flying, and wants 100.00000% safety as an entitlement, something no industry on earth offers or ever has or ever will, but yet fares must be point and click specials lower than bus fares.

Meanwhile, any spin on any story that helps pander to the consumer's fear of flying makes money for the media and will contunie to be covered by ignorant reporters, out of context and misrepresented, often times intentionally.

This is the best and most accurate post I have read in a long time. I can't believe this isn't common knowledge among the general population. We're a smart country right..... ok maybe not

 

[curtis46]

Especially after they allow people over 60 to fly.

*runs for cover*

It is known that the older you get less sleep needed,actually that's the 60+ old who gonna be smacking your head to keep you awake.

 

[Andy]

It is known that the older you get less sleep needed,actually that's the 60+ old who gonna be smacking your head to keep you awake.

You might actually want to verify that myth with scientific data before opening mouth and inserting foot.
http://longevity.about.com/od/sleep/a/sleep_aging.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1915455/posts

It's not that you need less sleep as you age, it's that there is more sleep deprivation among seniors than their younger counterparts. Mmmm. Nice. Sleep deprived senior pilots. That should enhance safety.

 

[curtis46]

Your articles referred mostly to people with illness or sleeping desorder.it's well known that sleeping circle is part of the human growing process ,which is not the case anymore as you age.this is why we don't need 8-9 hours of sleep anylonger.