USAPA Card Count

[FR8mastr]

These guys didn't have a job when the list was done and were placed accordingly. If a guy doesn't want to be "furlough fodder".............don't come back.

Oh wait how silly of me!! Without the merger "IF" he was recalled to AAA, it would have been to the bottom. So just exactly how did Nic adversely affect what was going to happen to a furloughed guy.

Hey, I was answering a question about who would be furloughed first. Why dont you try and read something before you open your trap. I said nothing about Nic. Get it?

 

[iflyhigh]

<<Cool....call your reps and let's get on with it. See, this way, east 1988 hires won't have to be furloughed four times while west 2005 hires never see one.>>

What guy would allow a company to furlough them 3 times and still return for more punishment. I am sure these pilots had other jobs that would have been as good as US Air. In the mid 90's, alot of airlines were hiring.

By the way, alot of pilots hired at AWA between 2001 and 2005 were furloughed from other airlines, like UAL, AMR/TWA, and US Airways. So to say new hires at AWA would never see furlough, they already have. Plus AWA pilots were furloughed in the mid 90's during BK, and after 9/11.

 

[BeCareful!]

Offer a fence in return for what? You know, a negotiation usually means a give-and-take. What do you have to offer us? Right now you're effectively holding a gun to our head and demanding a concession -- and you wonder why we don't just give in to your reasonable offer? Pull the trigger! Go ahead, I dare ya.

Oh, I see, the flawed award and the windfall (that none of you guys like to admit you got) is now something you want to use in "negotiation" with us.
Funny, you guys don't really "have" anything yet, but you want us to give you something for it.

Believe me, the trigger has been pulled, and not by the AAA MEC.....

 

[PHXFLYR]

PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

Easy, since then the furloughed guys have all been called back, so now the west has a 500 or so buffer.

Your logic is flawed since I was referring to the Nicolau Award and you're referring to a situation that occurs ex post facto. In other words, Nic ruled based on a snapshot date that included 1800 furloughees and you're looking at the present. Nicolau ruled that the career expectations of those furloughees was to remain furloughed. Hence, any future furloughs based on the Nicolau list do indeed share the pain appropriately.

 

[TWA Dude]

Oh, I see, the flawed award and the windfall (that none of you guys like to admit you got) is now something you want to use in "negotiation" with us.

I shall point out the obvious flaw in your logic.

Who decides what constitutes a "windfall"?

a) You
b) Me
c) ALPA
d) an Arbitrator by mutual consent.

(if you don't know the answer you fail the test)

So you can cry "windfall" until you're dehydrated but that doesn't make it so. I can guarantee you that no judge will ever touch the Nicolau Award. The fact that more of you are unhappy than us is a simple reflection of who had realistic expectations. Remember the Transcripts!

 

[Fast43]

Oh, I see, the flawed award and the windfall (that none of you guys like to admit you got) is now something you want to use in "negotiation" with us.
Funny, you guys don't really "have" anything yet, but you want us to give you something for it.

Believe me, the trigger has been pulled, and not by the AAA MEC.....

Please clarify what you mean by "windfall"

With the latest projections provided by the comapny, the East side has 77 Active Captains retiring in 2008 and the West has 26 Active Captains retiring. Vacated Capt positions usually provide upgrade positions. (retiring F/O's and retiring from a leave or medical do not provide Capt opportunities)
It is believed that by 2009 we will have age 65 in place, hence age 60 attrition stops.

So if you think getting access to 51 net upgrades in the forseeable future is a "Windfall".....you must be joking.

Because of the process you have had 350-400 east upgrades since may 05, (some could sensibly argue this is a winfall for the east since this was unlikely to happen without the merger) Full Integration was not possible until the arrival of a single certificate which came on Sept. 25th. 07 Now it has been completed integration can now happen.but

If you all feel the need to enjoy bottom of the barrel LOA 93 pay rates for the forseeable future to gain 51 more upgrades...............knock your self out.

Its time to move on and squeeze the company for all they got!!

 

[Soulfly]

Abe, Fast, TDub,

Arguing with these guys is like arguing with a drunk.

I am older, I have more (experience), so there is no way in hell, I am living without DOH.

You know what, screw it. Lets just go with DOB, indexed for how many times you have flown to the same exact place over and over again.

Abe, what do you think? Decades of straight in ILS approaches, or the old circle to land in ASE when its low. With a San Juan kid in the right seat. You know my answer.....

 

[FDJ2]

Parties must comply with the arbitrator’s decision unless they initiate a court challenge, claiming that the agreement, or the presentation and/or administration of the agreement, is unconscionable.

That is one incredibly high legal hurdle to climb. If the east had been stapled to the bottom of the west, perhaps an argument can be made that the arbitration was unconscionable, but even then the chances of vacating the decision would be remote.

In this case, the east would have a hard time making an argument that an arbitrators decision that awarded them the top 500+ positions and then melded the two seniority lists, effectively preserving each active pilots relative seniority, is unconscionable, given the similar gauge of equipment.

That being said, if the east feels that they can vacate this decision in court, then they ought to take it to court. Dumping ALPA for USAPA will not vacate this decision, nor can the seniority of the west pilots be negotiated away by USAPA in favor of the east pilots in future negotiations. That would be a gross violation of USAPA's duty of fair representation.

The east pilots agreed to binding arbitration and they agreed that Nicolau would be that arbitrator, now they are bound by that, regardless of who represents them.

The notion that changing your representation, after arbitration, vacates the arbitrators decision is just wrong. It's equivalent to stating that if you just change lawyers after a civil decision has been rendered, the decision is then vacated because you've changed lawyers. That just simply is not the case.

 

[PHXFLYR]

FDJ2

While what you say is very true, rest assured that this won't stop our "distinguished colleagues from the east" from ignoring the logic in your post and trying anyway. An unfortunate waste of time; time that can be much better spent at the negotiating table hammering out a new working agreement that will benefit all pilots,their's more so than ours. Regrettably ,they don't see it that way.Anyway,thanks for the outsiders perspective and your well-balanced and thoughtful posts on the subject.They've been a pleasure to read

 

[PHXFLYR]

Your logic is flawed..... .

It most certainly is. As a matter of fact,can you show me a time when his logic wasn't flawed??

PHXFLYR

 

[regionaltard]

Better representation for US Air pilots? Not a bad idea at all. Undoing the consequences of bad representation for US Air pilots? Not likely. Does anyone really believe that another union could have argued that DOH nonsense any more effectively? If ALPA failed those guys in any way it was in not taking over administrative control when it became obvious that their elected leadership was intent upon ignoring the dire warnings and riding the thing into right into the ground.

 

[abefly]

Abe, Fast, TDub,

Arguing with these guys is like arguing with a drunk.

I am older, I have more (experience), so there is no way in hell, I am living without DOH.

You know what, screw it. Lets just go with DOB, indexed for how many times you have flown to the same exact place over and over again.

Abe, what do you think? Decades of straight in ILS approaches, or the old circle to land in ASE when its low. With a San Juan kid in the right seat. You know my answer.....

Ha ha...I like that idea.......lets make it happen...where do i sign