Netjets vs CAL

[NavinRJohnson]

Majors to Netjets?

All: Thought I'd throw another 'what should I do?' question to see other people's ideas about this...

I'm currently a FO at CAL, and have been onboard for 2 yrs now. Based on current movement, I could be a 737 Capt as early as next year, which is pretty amazing. However QOL is not what I would like, and 12 days off with 100+ hrs in the plane (lots of deadhead) is already getting old. 7 and 7 with a reduced flying load sounds really nice right now. Basically CAL is just not as enjoyable as I envisioned it.

I would love to relocate back out West again, and with your TA, that might be able to happen. Since I'm in the EWR area, I could work TEB until getting out to BOI or somewhere similar. I currently make slightly more than a Netjets newhire would, so making a plunge wouldn't hurt too bad financially. I'm 37 and have quite a few years of flying left.

CAL pros:
Pay over the long term Moving up seniority fast
Perhaps more stable (very arguable)
New contract might be good (arguable again)
CAL cons:
work rules
time off
domiciles (desire to live west w/o a difficult commute. I'm not holding my breath on getting a LAX base)

I used to love flying into FBO's. Varied flying also appeals to me, and I feel I could hobnob w/ clients pretty easily. I'm out to make a reasonable living with good time off to do the things I like to do with my wife and kids.

Call me crazy, but I'm serious about leaving the majors if Netjets would take me. What do you think? Should I be patient and wait it out at CAL? If I leave, I feel it should be soon since I'm not a spring chicken any more. Thanks for any info/advice....

Hasta,

Navin

 

[niteflyr]

If you like the "FBO Scene" type of flying, and want to have more flexibility as far as domiciles I would say go for NJA. A lot of pilots are stuck in the airliner mentality and will not be happy anywhere but an airline, but it sounds like you are open minded and would maybe enjoy the flying at NJA.

The only downside I can see is maybe down the road several years. I don't know what the senior schedules are like at CAL now, but QOL may be better there when you get closer to retirement age although it may suck right now. At NJA you can pretty much plan on the same schedule rules until you retire, not that they are bad right now. 7 on 7 off and 2, 3 or 4 vacations per year (based on years of service) is not half bad.

 

[On Your Six]

Why not throw your application in at Netjets and see what happens? I know of a few JB pilots who have made the jump recently because airline flying was not what they had expected.

I certainly think you should apply sooner than later because the new TA could cause a stampeed with the significant pay raise for junior people. The domicile issue will be another source of interest with nearly 100 total domiciles.

I am a former airline pilot myself and I really enjoy my position on the corporate side. I say go for it and at least get an interview and decide from there. NJA is a quality operator and I think you would like it based on your interests.

Good luck.

 

[Pat Fabin]

Navin,

You are in a good position to evaluate your decision, that is for sure. My only question would be have you flown the 757/767 at CAL yet? Maybe flying some of the international stuff might appeal to you. Its generally a much easier lifestyle that all the domestic craziness.

I guess what I'm saying is try to get as much out of your experience at CAL that you can so you can make a really informed decision...cuz once you give up that seniority number, thats it.

Good luck!

 

[On Your Six]

Navin,

You are in a good position to evaluate your decision, that is for sure. My only question would be have you flown the 757/767 at CAL yet? Maybe flying some of the international stuff might appeal to you. Its generally a much easier lifestyle that all the domestic craziness.

I guess what I'm saying is try to get as much out of your experience at CAL that you can so you can make a really informed decision...cuz once you give up that seniority number, thats it.

Good luck!

Looks like he might already be on the 757/767 at CAL looking at his profile. It sounds like domicile, quality of life (7/7 vs. other schedules) and variety of flying might be some deciding factors.

 

[NavinRJohnson]

Thanks for the replies... The info is greatly appreciated!

Fabin, you are right, I know a lot of people would want to be in my shoes. FYI, I'm already on the 75/76, which is the irony. The locations we go to are good, granted, but doing 12 transatlantics (six 3 day trips) a month isn't doing much for my sleep cycle. It truly is a lot of time over the pond. By the time I get home and try to reintegrate with my family, I'm a big fat piece of crap. I think my body's time zone is somewhere over Greenland.

Plus, no trip rigs, and int'l per diem is horrible, especially considering the weak dollar. We cannot drop trips, and our bidding system is an absolute disaster. I'll stop the rant. This is not a CAL bash.

I do know that my life is better than on the slave ship 73's, but I just don' know if this is the fit for me. My other option would be to try to get onto the 777, but I would be junior forever...

I would be giving up a huge amount of seniority if I left. One of the biggest questions is can ALPA really negotiate a better contract in 08? A really tough call, hence my query on flight info....

Navin

 

[On Your Six]

My friends who fly for NJA love it. The situation will improve dramatically for newhires if the proposed TA passes. Check this out if you haven't already seen it:

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/fractional.html

From your tone I think you are already making a good case for at least trying to secure an interview - why wouldn't you? If you are looking at QOL and you can handle 7 days out, then 7/7 could be a much better schedule for you (especially if you take one week off in between - 21 days off in a row). If you want variety, you can't do much better than fractional flying where you can hit any airport that can accomodate your aircraft. If you want to schmooze with people, you will get more face time with celebrities than photographers at US Weekly.

Just remember that no operator is perfect. NJA is not perfect. CAL is not perfect. SWA is not perfect. UPS is not perfect. Sounds like airline flying is not living up to your expectations...

It comes down to QOL and pay in my book - once you feel good about those factors then other things will sort themselves out.... Start by getting yourself a NJA interview and you can evaluate it from there - it doesn't hurt to check it out.

 

[NavinRJohnson]

On Your Six:

Thanks for the link and the advice. I do think you are right, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to go interview and see what they're all about.

R/

Navin

 

[On Your Six]

On Your Six:

Thanks for the link and the advice. I do think you are right, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to go interview and see what they're all about.

R/

Navin

Check this out too if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.netjets.com/default.asp

Netjets has a fleet bigger than most airlines. This is not a fly-by-night operation. Again, it ain't perfect and people will always find reasons to knock it (tour schedule, small airplanes, adhoc nature of the flying vs. fixed routes, etc.). I think it takes an open mind to consider fractional flying. Many former 121 pilots love fractional flying and yet some prefer more structure found in the airline environment - whatever floats your boat.

From a pay perspective, NJA is getting better, and for newhires the TA (if it passes) could be a bonanza relative to other alternatives. It certainly is respectable relative to even some of the majors and I think many legacy pilots will take notice if the TA passes.

New aircraft, 7/7 schedule (if that is what you want), unlimited route variety, a better pay/benefits package, interesting passengers and relative security knowing you would be flying for the de facto industry leader vs. a follower - that's a pretty compelling combination.

All that said, I would hurry up and apply if you are interested - I think the new TA will cause a flood of applications if it passes. I don't work for NJA, but I have friends who do and they are quite happy.

 

[Pat Fabin]

Navin,

Sorry to hear the Intl. stuff is beating you up. Good luck on making a decision that suits you and your family. When I was furloughed and flying 135, all the Netjets crews were fun to hang with at the FBOs and their airplanes are all very nice.

OR you could always apply to DAL...we treat you better internationally! Designated rest seat/bunks....trip rigs...more intl. routes...good PBS, etc. Had to throw a shameless plug in there.

In any case, good luck to you!

 

[bizjet800]

Funny how our industry has changed. This question would have been unthinkable just 7 years ago! I say go for what is best for your family. When your kids are grown, you can't get any of that time back...good luck with your decision.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

I can see that you're not going to get much from the CAL perspective on this forum so I'll throw this out.

-Since the bottom 50% of your BES only gets 12 days off a month, you are in the worst seat for family time. Even more miserable if you commute.

-At two years, you probably have 1,000 pilots junior to you. You will not be junior on the 777 in Newark. You will be a lineholder and can get your trips in two work blocks (only two commutes!) per month. Potentially less if you're willing to go below mpg. In time (2-3 years), you could do the same in Houston and cut your commute time in half.

-At 50% BES as a 737 FO in IAH, you can easily get lines with 15+ days off if you bid correctly (read: can manuever in PBS and don't set too many avoids.) I'm doing it consistantly and I live in Houston; QOL has finally become manageable.

-I would say the BeechJet at FlightOptions is ten times the slave ship that the 737 is. Of course, leaving FLOPS was hardly the same decision as leaving NetJets would have been. Even still, think of the increased productivity at work as more time at home with the family.

-Think of how far your seniority has come in only two years. Look at the aircraft orders and retirements over the next three years and give yourself a conservative assumption of where your seniority would be at that point. Then think, from then until retirement it only gets better. (I know, past performance is no guarantee of future results, but until something happens...)

-One last thin straw, there may be a west coast base yet. Not enough of an argument to base a decision on, but still possible none-the-less.

-In two years, you will probably be able to scoop up a house in California that you never thought would be possible this time last year.

As for me, I'm tired of moving. I'm tired of pay cuts and starting over. I'm tired of being at the bottom of pilot lists hoping nothing happens in the industry. I'm optimistic about the future of my job at Continental. And most importantly, as I'm sure you can understand, my wife also agrees with that decision. Our roots grow deeper every month. Good luck with your decision, your only obligation is to your family.

 

[brokeflyer]

Airlines have never been a good place to work...all it will take is one small glitch in the economy and your job is gone.....

if you want to have a life go to netjets.....if you need to feed your ego and be a airline pilot...stay where you are.....

 

[acaTerry]

In my 3rd year at NJA. I'd quit flying before going back to the airlines

 

[johnsonrod]

I think Netjets would be a great choice. I think military pilots who skip the regional experience are sometimes surprised by the "realities" of airline flying. Yeah, it ain't as glamorous as it used to be. For example, nowadays you have to put up with the following on a consistent basis: long congo lines at JFK/EWR/ATL, bottlenecks at the busiest airports leading to terrible ground delays (more frequent now than in the past), putting up with TSA hassles in the crowded airports, cranky old stews, psycho redneck passengers who expect the world from you, constant concern about the financial viability of your airline (unless you are a SWA or UPS/Fedex pilot - for now), uneven schedules on reserve as a newbie, low pay at the beginning relative to a previous job and many more factors. It can be very stressful and that might not be expected by those who didn't experience all of that in the regional world. That's why a lot of regional pilots jump at fractional flying - they learn to hate the airline business and want to avoid the nightly congo lines at JFK and ATL and the constant stress of the job. Not all of it is stressful, but the job is certainly more stressful now than it was 10-20 years ago. And the economic incentives are no longer there for many airline pilots - pensions are mostly a thing of the past for many pilots. The allure of airline flying is evaporating.

I am not saying fractional flying is immune, but I am sure it can be less stressful here and there (unless you work for FLOPS which has a terrible operating enviornment, etc.). There may be different sources of stress in fractional flying too including frequently changing schedules/destinations, being away from home for 7 nights in a row, an occasional jerk passenger, etc. However, I think fractional flying for a quality operator like Netjets would be a great alternative to airline flying. Like others have said, it has a great contract that is improving for the junior people, the airplanes are top notch and you soon might be able to live almost wherever you want at Netjets - that's not bad. It is the leader in the industry too.

So, go get the interview and then tell us what you think. Good luck.

 

[NavinRJohnson]

You guys are awesome. Thanks again.

I'll post how my interview went if I get one. Then the real decision making begins.

Navin...

 

[jonjuan]

You guys are awesome. Thanks again.

I'll post how my interview went if I get one. Then the real decision making begins.

Navin...

Try to seek out NJA pilots leaving for CAL to compare notes.

 

[kman]

Think I am one of the few that are going back to the airlines, Its a great job, but its not for me good luck.

 

[JetFumes]

I am in the same boat trying to figure out if this choice is for me. I live on the west coast and there simply is no real opportunity to live west and have a good quality of life and income at JetBlue. They do way to many redeyes and the pay is just not there. I have been there two years and I am considering going to NetJets also. I am tired of the lack of real job security. Plus I will not be a captain on the bus out west for god knows how long. So if I can live in the bay area and be a capt at netjets in 5 years I might be better off. If the soft pay is there then I would not have to take much of a pay hit. Its time to consider it. Let us know what your decision is. I'll do the same.

 

[t-bone]

Another plug...

If you're living in the Bay Area, you could be a captain at XOJet in less than a year and fly out of Sacramento...

If you haven't heard of us, we're the company that just ordered an additional 30 Citation 10s and 80 Challenger 300s (20 firm and 60 options) with financial backing from TPG and Lehman Brothers. We've got somewhere around 80 pilots now (only 12 citations currently on the property, along with a few smaller planes) so you've still got a great chance of getting on early with a rapidly expanding company.

9 on 7 off schedule, with a good chance of getting home during those 9 days if you live near MCC or VNY. PHX and ILG/TEB/HPN are also pilot bases. I haven't been gone for a solid 9 days since June. If you want to live somewhere else, as long as it's reasonably close to an airport with good airline service, you can do so if you don't mind the 17/15 schedule. That one sounds kinda rough to me, but the guys and gals that are on that schedule seem to really like it. 15 solid days off (yes, cell phone can be turned off) is appealing to some. That would work for the guy that wants to live in Boise. And with this NJA TA that's out there and their 100 prospective bases, don't be surprised if our base options on the 9/7 schedule become a little more flexible in the near future.

Good luck, whatever you do!