ASA - Future Schedules w/ Rigs

[Stifler's Mom]

I don't think most ASA pilots understand much.

I'm sure you'll be more than happy to explain it to your FOs though. :laugh:

 

[ReverseSensing]

Exactly...... sometimes the "law of unintended consequences" can be a B!tch....

As long as you schedule at least 3.75 hours of flying each day, unproductive 4 days will be cheaper than some 3 days for the company...

If you guys didn't get a trip rig, a 3.75 min day will probably lead to unproductive trips. Even a trip rig won't prevent unproductive trips unless it is low enough. QX has a 4:1 trip rig and still averages 4-day trips crediting less than 20 hours. I hope we can negotiate somewhere around 3.5:1 so we can earn our credits quicker and get more days off.

A trip pilots view as unproductive (little flying -- long overnights) is productive as far as management is concerned if it doesn't cost them anymore to have you sit around a hotel at an outstation.

Maybe it's been covered elsewhere, but I'm curious how your new (proposed) min day is actually applied/calculated. The devil is in the details on that one.

 

[www.]

The company has wanted to get rid of CDOs for a long time. They eliminated a lot already, but kept some around as a favor to the few who actually like to bid them. They may go away with the new contract.

Yeah, right. Look at LYH. You really think that's a nap because someone likes them. 2 flights a day is the only reason.

 

[SSDD]

I keep telling you to read the fine print, but some of you think your MEC can outsmart Skywest management. Other than hourly rates, what I have heard about your TA is nothing that Skywest doesn't have right now.

Its not too late. Ask questions. Don't get so giddy you'll agree to anything.

 

[No Delay]

yeah, I agree.

If quality of life is what we were looking for...this TA doesn't do it.


13 mil in a bonus...(that will be spent by Jan.). After that, all we have is a better reserve system.

These rigs are really useless...except maybe a long mtc delay would get you an extra hour of pay.

Am I missing something?

 

[No Delay]

Can someone ask some of the ALPA guys these questions next time they are in the crew lounge?

I never see these guys.

 

[ASACAPT]

yeah, I agree.

If quality of life is what we were looking for...this TA doesn't do it.


13 mil in a bonus...(that will be spent by Jan.). After that, all we have is a better reserve system.

These rigs are really useless...except maybe a long mtc delay would get you an extra hour of pay.

Am I missing something?

How can you comment on the TA when you have not seen it. How about you be quiet and go to the road shows and ask questions and SEE the TA before you make up your mind.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Can someone ask some of the ALPA guys these questions next time they are in the crew lounge?

I never see these guys.

Why not? The directions to the MEC office are posted. So are all their phone numbers.

There's no excuse for ignorance.

 

[No Delay]

When I said "I never see these guys"...I didn't mean it in a bad way. I never see them because I blow in and blow out as quick as I can.

I know I can track them down or go and visit the office...I just prefer to get my education from flightinfo


ASACAPT - Take a f u c k i n g chill pill. I know the TA hasn't been published. There are also about 10 other threads about our future contract. Everyone is just talking and sharing OPINIONS. Jackass.

 

[JoeMerchant]

When I said "I never see these guys"...I didn't mean it in a bad way. I never see them because I blow in and blow out as quick as I can.

I know I can track them down or go and visit the office...I just prefer to get my education from flightinfo

Then you are LAZY.... call them up... Let them know how you feel and ask them questions.... they will talk to you....

 

[No Delay]

I know they will talk to me.

I am lazy.

What else ya got?

I was simply making conversation. I wasn't searching for legally binding information. Can I just retract my question?

How about this - "Do you guys think Britney Spears should get her kids back?"

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know they will talk to me.

I am lazy.

What else ya got?

I was simply making conversation. I wasn't searching for legally binding information. Can I just retract my question?

How about this - "Do you guys think Britney Spears should get her kids back?"

Your original question is a good one..... these "rigs" may lead to worse schedules...... however, you need to get involved and get educated..... Whether you like these rigs, or not, whether you like this TA or not, you need to get involved and get educated....

I'm definately not an ALPA cheerleader, but I am tired of people sitting back waiting for things to be put in their lap....

Question BOTH sides, make up your own mind, get involved, and don't expect things to be taken care of for you....

 

[WWEfan]

Can someone ask some of the ALPA guys these questions next time they are in the crew lounge?

I never see these guys.

Have you ever attended an LEC meeting or recurrent lunch?

Would you rather get the information 1st hand from a rep or 2nd hand on a site like this where everyone is an expert in theory? But there is a save all, there will be road shows where you can go and ask questions till you are satisfied or so pissed you want to throw something at the reps.

 

[Speedtape]

A Regular pilot, except on CDO lines, shall be paid daily, the greater of:

1. Duty rig credit, or
2. Min day credit of 3.75 hours, or
3. Scheduled block, on a leg by leg, or
4. Actual block, on a leg by leg.

CDO lines do not get the min day 3.75. Duty rigs are based on scheduled not actual. It is not an average and is not a lookback.

Underblock credit concept went away, however, with this method, the loss is negated by the above method. Most of the time, it appears that CDO lines will get credited with a value above 75 hours. As someone from Skywest mentioned, CDO's go senior as a result.

 

[JoeMerchant]

A Regular pilot, except on CDO lines, shall be paid daily, the greater of:

1. Duty rig credit, or
2. Min day credit of 3.75 hours, or
3. Scheduled block, on a leg by leg, or
4. Actual block, on a leg by leg.

CDO lines do not get the min day 3.75. Duty rigs are based on scheduled not actual. It is not an average and is not a lookback.

Underblock credit concept went away, however, with this method, the loss is negated by the above method. Most of the time, it appears that CDO lines will get credited with a value above 75 hours. As someone from Skywest mentioned, CDO's go senior as a result.

Exactly..... doesn't prevent unproductive 4 day trips and actually encourages them....

 

[shamrock]

Well that's certainly disappointing. I was wondering if I was missing something when I saw no mention of trip rigs. Guess I wasn't.

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Minimum Day Credit:​

•​

3.75 hours for each calendar day of duty and/or calendar day away
from domicile.
​

Trip construction​

o​

Trips will be constructed using the following guidelines:​

��​

With block times front-loaded toward the beginning of the trip,​

��​

Minimize the use of extended breaks within a duty period,

Doesn't that help a little with unproductive trip issue? ​

 

[No Delay]

With block times front-loaded toward the beginning of the trip


What does that mean? You would be scheduled to fly more on the first day vs. the 3rd or 4th day?


I did read lines would be a mix of 1, 2, 3, & 4 day trips. Mixed how? I hate guidelines. Would like to see it locked in a little tighter.

I was hoping we would see a lot of 3 day trips. I am afraid we will be seeing mostly 4 days blocked 16-20 hours. With these rigs and the limitations on scheduled duty days...I don't see it being any other way.

 

[Speedtape]

Exactly..... doesn't prevent unproductive 4 day trips and actually encourages them....

What is an unproductive four day trip? It is not in their best interest to create alot of unproductive four day trips. It eats up resources.

 

[Speedtape]

Well that's certainly disappointing. I was wondering if I was missing something when I saw no mention of trip rigs. Guess I wasn't.

Trip rigs would be useless. The ratio would be terrible and nothing would change.

 

[GeekMaster]

We certainly DO have so many who have a less than thourough knowledge on this subject. It doesn't make them bad people though. Here are some important thoughts before everyone gets their panties wadded up.

Duty and trip rigs won't have NEARLY as much effect on the upper half of the seniority list one way or another. While it might be totally legal for the company to build 4 day trips that fly exactly 4 hours each day, it's not going to happen in mass. Why? Because at 16 hours a pop, it's hard to get the pilots up to 75 hours and it would take a good solid 10% more pilots on the payroll to perform a given amount of flying. I personally have only one trip this month that would be affected by the new rigs. It's a 4 day with 7+ hours on days 1 and 4 with only 2.5 hours on days 2 and 3. Rigs would add about 2.5 hours to the total trip to bring those two days up to value. Instead the company would most likely build those two days to the min. day by using longer legs. To keep it averaged, they might pull down days 1 and 4 by an equal amount. So really, that trip didn't change much.

The ones who will be most affected are the lower end of the seniority list. For everyone prognosticating how the evil empire is going to circumnavigate the new defenses (rigs) to secretly get inside your pants and "violate" you, consider what you have protecting you right now.

Are these rigs an improvement? BIG FAT YES!!!! Perfect? No airline has absolutely perfect rigs. Airlines haven't yet figured out how to make money scheduling 18 days off, long overnights at beachfront hotels, duty in late, duty out early, flying 51 hours and crediting 102.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Question BOTH sides, make up your own mind, get involved, and don't expect things to be taken care of for you....

That there is about the best advice you could hope for.

 

[John Pennekamp]

A Regular pilot, except on CDO lines, shall be paid daily, the greater of:

1. Duty rig credit, or
2. Min day credit of 3.75 hours, or
3. Scheduled block, on a leg by leg, or
4. Actual block, on a leg by leg.

CDO lines do not get the min day 3.75. Duty rigs are based on scheduled not actual. It is not an average and is not a lookback.

Underblock credit concept went away, however, with this method, the loss is negated by the above method. Most of the time, it appears that CDO lines will get credited with a value above 75 hours. As someone from Skywest mentioned, CDO's go senior as a result.

So do the duty rigs apply to CDOs or not? If co, we'll cash in because they're all above 12 hours of duty.

 

[USCtrojan]

So do the duty rigs apply to CDOs or not? If co, we'll cash in because they're all above 12 hours of duty.

Yeah, but what is confusing is the Scheduled Duty for Back Side of the Clock. 11 hours max duty..... Basically, as I read it, 5 hours min per day per nap? Is that right?

Trojan

 

[John Pennekamp]

Yeah. To clarify, I read that they'll apply, but I'm wondering if the 1:1 above 12 hours applies.

 

[USCtrojan]

Yeah. To clarify, I read that they'll apply, but I'm wondering if the 1:1 above 12 hours applies.

That's what I mean. As I read it, no CDO will be over 11 hours of duty, is that what you meant?

Trojan

 

[wms]

It's the other way around.....

Duty rigs apply to "duty time"..... Time at the hotel, unless on a CDO, is not "duty time".

Min day is the "trip rig".

This could create more 4 days and less naps.

Sorry, that's what I meant. The Sydlexia again.

 

[Speedtape]

So do the duty rigs apply to CDOs or not? If co, we'll cash in because they're all above 12 hours of duty.

From my source, the CDO's have the same Duty Rig as a regular trip. However, CDO's do not have min-day of 3.75.

Example: A CDO with a 12 hour duty will pay credit of 6 hours. Every minute of Duty over 12 hours is a credit of 1 for 1, so, for example, a 14 hour Duty will pay 8 hours credit.

 

[Texx]

Minimum Day Credit:​

•

3.75 hours for each calendar day of duty and/or calendar day away

from domicile.​

Trip construction
o ​

​

Trips will be constructed using the following guidelines:

�� ​

​

With block times front-loaded toward the beginning of the trip,

�� ​

​

Minimize the use of extended breaks within a duty period,

Doesn't that help a little with unproductive trip issue? ​

​

This means nothing...No teeth. It's like Bill Clinton. It depends on what your defenition of is is.

​

 

[Texx]

What is an unproductive four day trip? It is not in their best interest to create alot of unproductive four day trips. It eats up resources.

A 17 hour 4 day is unproductive.

As long as your at work your productive to them because they can use you any way they want.