SkyWest Staffing Problem

[Splert]

And I'm positive mesa guys would die for our QOL... go alpa! ha ha hah a ha ha ha tools

You are Okay with SkyWest, Inc. transferring Emb120 flying to a third company?

You are also Okay with SkyWest, Inc. transferring CRJ200 flying to a forth company?

These are the segments of SkyWest, Inc's. portfolio that is getting relatively expensive to continue to have SkyWest Airlines seniority list pilots operate.

There are more than a few "new" operators that can do the flying with much lower 'crew costs" than SkyWest Airlines Pilots. It's better for SkyWest, Inc. to spread the crew cost of an 18 year CA over 70 seat than 30/50 and have a 1st year CA at a new company fly the 30/50. You do understand SkyWest, Inc. bids against other carriers on crew costs. The majority of other expenses are not bid, they are "passed though" to the code share partner.

That is what killed the QOL of other carriers. They had to foresight to band together and fight to keep all flying on one list. It hurts to win this battle but in the long run it is worse for your career to have to fight with your pay value, benefits and work rules in order to keep the flying on SkyWest Airlines pilot seniority list.

Just ask an ASA pilot about the reality of SkyWest, Inc. transferring 900 flying to SkyWest Airlines.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

alpa is the one offering the box-o-poo. see ASA... mesa... any and all bankrupt major... i have a steamy box for you- courtesy of alpa (I ate their free lunch yesterday) they have empty promises and im pretty sure they have thoroughly hosed ASA guys- didnt they sue alpa for non representation? Id bet that ASA guys (not all) would be happy with what we have. And I'm positive mesa guys would die for our QOL... go alpa! ha ha hah a ha ha ha tools

So you're basically saying that ALPA caused the majors to go bankrupt?
You also fail to see the difference between a bankrupt carrier, and Skyw which has been making record profits(the highest profit margins in the entire airline industry accoding to AIN) and their ability to give us at least a fair raise and COLA(not the 0 or 1%)?????

 

[Soverytired]

Nope he's an idiot, we've already had a few years to reconsider.

Nice. Good rebuttal to the patently untrue "No ALPA carrier would only give it's pilots 8 days off a month" assertion.

More power to your union drive, if that's what you truly desire. My only reason for posting on this is that for many at Skywest, it's their first airline and potential union job. They need to understand that while a union solves some problems, it creates a totally different set of obstacles; you're a fool if you don't recognize this.

As the the actual union choice, I would personally NEVER go with ALPA. Why?

• Completely ineffectual at Mesa for my 10 year stay in hell
• Completely ineffectual at protecting the pensions of those retired at the legacy carriers (you know, the guys who paid dues for 30+ years?)
• Over 150 "officers" on the ALPA payroll making over $100k a year from your dues. Over 30 making over $200k/yr from your dues. It's a payroll scheme that would make most corporations blush.
• The RLA virtually strips airline unions of the ability to STRIKE . . .their only true bargaining chip. Airline contracts take YEARS to negotiate. UAW took 9 days and a 3 day strike.

ALPA is excellent, however, at making reasonable sounding excuses.

There's a good reason union drives have nose dived over the past 30 years, and it's not because the blue collar workers are stupid.

That said, if you truly want ALPA on your property, good luck, take ownership of your union (re: volunteer), and never complain about ANYTHING between contracts, because nothing changes until contract time . . . so be sure and think of every possible contingency that could ever happen over the next 5 years. (HINT: it takes 3 or 4 contracts to figure every contigency out)

 

[SkyNation]

great post.

we have problems. if we vote in ALPA, we trade them in for new problems. I think the majority of us won't make that trade.

 

[kj6991]

great post.

we have problems. if we vote in ALPA, we trade them in for new problems. I think the majority of us won't make that trade.

I wouldn't be so certain. It might not pass, but it will be very close. I would say more people are for it than not that i have flown with recently. wouldn't surprise me.

 

[BigLebowski]

ALPA is not the perfect answer...but it is the best one. At least with ALPA, you have guarantees and protections with a contract. I have heard rumors (granted, they may be false) that SKW guys are being taken down to 8 days off in some cases. This would NEVER happen with an ALPA contract.

As I said, ALPA is very flawed but it is better than nothing at all.

Actually I used to work with an airline that was ALPA and they would do that. The only thing scheduling would tell you was to "grieve it" That is the answer to everything when you have a union...it never stops the company from doing what they want.

 

[USCtrojan]

Actually I used to work with an airline that was ALPA and they would do that. The only thing scheduling would tell you was to "grieve it" That is the answer to everything when you have a union...it never stops the company from doing what they want.

Unless you quit being a pu$$y and just refuse to do it. You can do that you know, I've done it at ASA. And ALPA just got ASA an industry leading contract to vote on.

Trojan

 

[USCtrojan]

EVERYBODY READ THIS.... This guy knows what hes talking about!!!

Try refusing a legal assignment at SkyWest. See what happens. Buddy of mine at SkyWest got extended into his "personal day off" by 10 minutes. When he called Scheduling to re-arrange it, they told him, "it was only 10 minutes, so tough." At ASA, I would have refused it. Nothing they can do. I don't blame my buddy at all, I would have done the same, he could've been fired.

If you don't know your contract, it's your problem. Fly, grieve, etc. Otherwise, flat out refuse it, if it's against contractual rules. A nice thing to have.

Case in point. A few months ago I had an 8 hour Reduced Rest overnight. Contract says we can work a max 10 hour duty day following 8 RR overnight. They tried to extend me and send me out again (which would have extended me beyond that 10 hours duty.) Told them NO. They asked if I was refusing the assignment, said, yep, absolutely REFUSING IT. Why? Because of my CONTRACT. Never heard another word about it.

Trojan

 

[PBRstreetgang]

EVERYBODY READ THIS.... This guy knows what hes talking about!!!

Don't you have a N.A.M.B.L.A. meeting to chair? SKYW does this on a daily basis, it's called PBS and scheduling discretion. Now shut up and don't touch anything in the cockpit, except yourself, LOOSER?
PBR

 

[jea]

Don't you have a N.A.M.B.L.A. meeting to chair? SKYW does this on a daily basis, it's called PBS and scheduling discretion. Now shut up and don't touch anything in the cockpit, except yourself, LOOSER?
PBR

ha ha ha ha you are my new hero! You seem so informed, educated, mature... Do you have your atp yet? If not I can help you out with that

 

[PBRstreetgang]

great post.

we have problems. if we vote in ALPA, we trade them in for new problems. I think the majority of us won't make that trade.

Thats the problem, you "think", and your head overheats, the master caution goes off and you pass out. I would hope that when ALPA becomes the collective bargaining agent for the SKYW pilots you will have an anal hemmorage and lose your medical. That way you can spend more time on trying to legitimize your N.A.M.B.L.A. projects!
Please go away, of stick a loaded shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger with your toe!
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Unless you quit being a pu$$y and just refuse to do it. You can do that you know, I've done it at ASA. And ALPA just got ASA an industry leading contract to vote on.

Trojan

You hit the nail on the head, pu$$y nails it right on!
PBR

 

[Coloaviator]

New poll numbers indicate ALPA is a long shot at Skywest. I have polled 224 Captains and First Officers at Skywest 84 Yes's and 160 No's. It is not looking good for ALPA's return on investment. It looks like 2 million dollars up in smoke, that is 2 million dollars of our fellow regional airline pilots dues they have worked hard for so that ALPA can get 3000 more members. Man nobody seems to see the light.

 

[jea]

It would be nice if alpa- a business- had financial responsibility to those it serves wouldnt it. Granted I'm sure people see me as anti alpa- at the regional level- but its just sad..... 5 years for a TA... industry leading contracts (comair).... oh that was retraced or something right? I see benefits of pilot groups, just not alpa.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

It would be nice if alpa- a business- had financial responsibility to those it serves wouldnt it. Granted I'm sure people see me as anti alpa- at the regional level- but its just sad..... 5 years for a TA... industry leading contracts (comair).... oh that was retraced or something right? I see benefits of pilot groups, just not alpa.

Jon
Again, you are wrong, but again that is nothing new!
We don't see you as just anti ALPA, we see you as an ignorant, selfish, stupid a$$wipe of a pseudo-human being. That completes the picture.
PBR

 

[jea]

Again, you are wrong, but again that is nothing new!
We don't see you as just anti ALPA, we see you as an ignorant, selfish, stupid a$$wipe of a pseudo-human being. That completes the picture.
PBR

You really are nonstop aren't you? I think you could add a few more names in there.... please give it another shot- show all of us your brilliance... again.

 

[yellowfever]

!

New poll numbers indicate ALPA is a long shot at Skywest. I have polled 224 Captains and First Officers at Skywest 84 Yes's and 160 No's. It is not looking good for ALPA's return on investment. It looks like 2 million dollars up in smoke, that is 2 million dollars of our fellow regional airline pilots dues they have worked hard for so that ALPA can get 3000 more members. Man nobody seems to see the light.

I'm not sure if you understand why the pilots at ALPA carriers feel it is important for the industry to have SkyWest under the ALPA umbrella. Do you understand pattern bargaining? How about scope protection? I know the SkyWest pilots don't like to hear this...but I believe they were the industry leaders (with MESA) on the low pay scales for the larger regional jets. At least MESA did it to leash an alter ego carrier (and they always have had split rates for the bigger jets). Sadly, it appears that SkyWest pilots voted to fly the larger jets for the same rate...only for 18 months right? The problem for you guys is that you don't have a contract and BH didn't want to give you any more money for flying the bigger equipment after the 18 months. Lucky for you that a group of your pilots wanted to organize and, magically, you were handed a BHO (not as good as a legitimate hourly rate, but better than nothing right) and if you are to ever get a decent rate on the bigger equipment, you will get nothing for retro pay (because BH doesn't want to pay it...and you have no choice but to do what BH says). So don't come on here and insinuate that ALPA pilots are wasting their money. They can spend it how they want to. They are trying to have foresight so that this career will be better... not worse.

 

[USCtrojan]

I'm not sure if you understand why the pilots at ALPA carriers feel it is important for the industry to have SkyWest under the ALPA umbrella. Do you understand pattern bargaining? How about scope protection? I know the SkyWest pilots don't like to hear this...but I believe they were the industry leaders (with MESA) on the low pay scales for the larger regional jets. At least MESA did it to leash an alter ego carrier (and they always have had split rates for the bigger jets). Sadly, it appears that SkyWest pilots voted to fly the larger jets for the same rate...only for 18 months right? The problem for you guys is that you don't have a contract and BH didn't want to give you any more money for flying the bigger equipment after the 18 months. Lucky for you that a group of your pilots wanted to organize and, magically, you were handed a BHO (not as good as a legitimate hourly rate, but better than nothing right) and if you are to ever get a decent rate on the bigger equipment, you will get nothing for retro pay (because BH doesn't want to pay it...and you have no choice but to do what BH says). So don't come on here and insinuate that ALPA pilots are wasting their money. They can spend it how they want to. They are trying to have foresight so that this career will be better... not worse.

Yeah, what I find very funny now is that Skywest Mgmt. is resorting to "threatening" company emails to all of its pilots. Nice job, and some of you complain about "ALPA thugs?" What kind of threats did ASA hear before this thing was TA'd?

Trojan

 

[Soverytired]

Unless you quit being a pu$$y and just refuse to do it. You can do that you know, I've done it at ASA. And ALPA just got ASA an industry leading contract to vote on.

Trojan

Actually, it's a good way to get fired. (ASA must be special - - guess your management must be pussis)

Your contract will spell out your grievance procedure, and it will take from months to years to get it resolved.

My experience is you'll be expected to follow it. Mesa had a couple of guys fired in ORD because they took the "I won't be a puss" track. As far as I know, the union was not able to get them their jobs back.

 

[USCtrojan]

Actually, it's a good way to get fired. (ASA must be special)

Your contract will spell out your grievance procedure, and it will take from months to years to get it resolved.

My experience is you'll be expected to follow it. Mesa had a couple of guys fired in ORD because they took the "I won't be a puss" track. As far as I know, the union was not able to get them their jobs back.

If it's in the Contract, it's in the Contract. Fire me, I hope they do, I will get very very rich. You start making up rules, now that's a different story....

Trojan

 

[PBRstreetgang]

You really are nonstop aren't you? I think you could add a few more names in there.... please give it another shot- show all of us your brilliance... again.

Jon,
I don't think I need to add anything!
Do the math?
PBR

 

[BigLebowski]

Unless you quit being a pu$$y and just refuse to do it. You can do that you know, I've done it at ASA. And ALPA just got ASA an industry leading contract to vote on.

Trojan

Well that would be an ingenious thing to do wouldn't it? They used to fire people for refusing an assignment...Then you would have to sit and wait while ALPA handled it with no paycheck.
Sorry, not the case there.

If ALPA is so good, why is USAir trying to vote them off? Soon will be United, NWA, and of course TWA.....oops I forgot ALPA took great care of them.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Well that would be an ingenious thing to do wouldn't it? They used to fire people for refusing an assignment...Then you would have to sit and wait while ALPA handled it with no paycheck.
Sorry, not the case there.

If ALPA is so good, why is USAir trying to vote them off? Soon will be United, NWA, and of course TWA.....oops I forgot ALPA took great care of them.

Well,
The USAir guys are crying into their beer, they wanted to step to the front of the line ahead of the AW guys. These were the same guys who were publicly stating that when USAir and United merged they were going to get DOH and deserved it. The very same United guys who want the decertification are the same guys, one who told me personally he hadn't been to a local meeting in years, he just wanted to save the dues. I am constantly amazed, the guys who use messa as an ALPA example refuse to admit or even consider how bad it would be there without a contract. For all the UAL guys who want to decertify ALPA, look at the concessions that SKYW pilots have endured in the last 5 years and apply those losses to their situation.
PBR

 

[fatdumbandhappy]

ooops

 

[Soverytired]

If it's in the Contract, it's in the Contract. Fire me, I hope they do, I will get very very rich. You start making up rules, now that's a different story....

Trojan

Well, it would certainly be nice if it worked that way in the real world. But bluster aside, I think you know it doesn't.

Unfortunately, if you refuse an assignment just because you disagree with your company's contract interpretation (or even their blatant disregard of a contract clause), and thereby don't follow the proscribed and contractually bargained for grievance process, you might be fired . . . . for good, and your union won't be able to do squat.

And that's going to follow you for the rest of your aviation career. Assuming you still have one.

Most of the "job saving" that unions do has to do with "wrongful termination." . . .usually in the form of not following the contractually agreed to disciplinary steps to the letter. This is how the true embarrassments to aviation get their jobs back. A short list of what I've seen and heard of:

• Pilots who sexually harass flight attendants (I know of one from Independence who actually got his job back after drugging then sexually assaulting one***)
• Showing up with alcohol on their breath
• Gross mishandling of the aircraft (like a full blown stall in smooth air at altitude)

All deserved to be fired. All WERE fired. Immediately. And they all got their jobs back, with backpay and bonuses, because the company didn't follow the contractually agreed to disciplinary framework. Had they done so, they would have been gone for good, forever.

So . . . be careful.


----------------------------

***(On a side note, this particular scumbag was caught doing it AGAIN, was fired properly with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, and wound up in jail when she pressed charges)

 

[Soverytired]

Well,
I am constantly amazed, the guys who use messa as an ALPA example refuse to admit or even consider how bad it would be there without a contract.
PBR

I think it's a valid criticism to say that "because ALPA doesn't work at Mesa, it won't work anywhere".

The biggest, and broadest example of ALPA failing on a national scale is their inability to protect the very hard earned pensions of all those poor bastards from the legacy carriers (DAL, UAL, etc., etc.) Thousands of these men and women worked the longest, invested tens of millions of dollars into ALPA over their long careers, and when push came to shove, they didn't have a voice and were thrown under the bus when concessions were needed.

If the first thing these pilots demand when their contracts come up is to restore the pensions above all other things, I'll eat my words and reconsider ALPA. Anyone care to wager on how likely that will be?

Unions may be the answer for some airlines (poster children = WN, UPS). I'm convinced, however, that ALPA is not the answer as it is presently constituted, especially for the regionals.

 

[PCL_128]

Unfortunately, if you refuse an assignment just because you disagree with your company's contract interpretation (or even their blatant disregard of a contract clause), and thereby don't follow the proscribed and contractually bargained for grievance process, you might be fired . . . . for good, and your union won't be able to do squat.

Incorrect. It's certainly true that the company can fire you if you refuse the assignment (the company can fire you whenever they want, but it doesn't mean that it will stick). However, when it goes to the arbitrator, he will be looking to see if the assignment was a legal assignment per the agreement. If the arbitrator finds that the assignment was not in compliance with the agreement, then he will rule that the termination was without just cause and order the company to reinstate your employment with full back pay.

The problem with this scenario is this: if you have some really bad luck and end up with a nutty arbitrator, then he could come up with a wacky interpretation of what is seemingly easy to understand contract language. I've seen arbitrators make some very strange rulings. In a majority of cases, however, the arbitrator will make a reasonable interpretation of the contract language.

As an ALPA rep, I always told pilots to "fly it and grieve it" as official advice. However, in situations that I was personally dealing with scheduling about, I would tell them to stick it if they were trying to get me to fly an illegal assignment. I would never tell a member to refuse an assignment, because there was the small chance that the company would wrongfully terminate them, but the decision is really up to you. If you're very confident in your interpretation of the agreement, then you're really not taking a whole lot of risk.

 

[PCL_128]

I think it's a valid criticism to say that "because ALPA doesn't work at Mesa, it won't work anywhere".

ALPA does work at Mesa. Had it not been for ALPA, your job would have been outsourced to Freedumb a long time ago. ALPA had to spend negotiating capital to protect your job with scope, and the other sections of the agreement had to suffer to "buy" that scope language.

The biggest, and broadest example of ALPA failing on a national scale is their inability to protect the very hard earned pensions of all those poor bastards from the legacy carriers (DAL, UAL, etc., etc.)

The blame for this rests with the current bankruptcy laws. The 1113(c) bankruptcy process is heavily weighted in favor of management, and there are no protections for employee pension plans. There simply wasn't enough negotiating leverage to keep the pensions during concessionary bargaining. ALPA is currently working with Congress to change the bankruptcy laws to prevent the remaining pension plans from being terminated. Captain Prater recently gave testimony to Congress on this issue.

If the first thing these pilots demand when their contracts come up is to restore the pensions above all other things, I'll eat my words and reconsider ALPA. Anyone care to wager on how likely that will be?

Doing so would be a waste of negotiating capital. The pensions would simply be at risk again the next time an airline files for Chapter 11. Unless the bankruptcy laws are drastically changed, pension plans are huge cost-savings targets in bankruptcy. Wasting leverage to negotiate for something that you'll just lose again in the next bankruptcy is not solid strategy. The goal should be to fix the bankruptcy process, and work on top of the line B-funds in the mean time. For most pilots, a B-fund is a far superior retirement vehicle anyway.

 

[Gandalf]

The alpa guarantee through the eyes of Tommy boy.... ive got a box and some spare time for you alpa lovers

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting.
Ted: I'm listening.
Tommy: Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.
Ted: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy: 'Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter.
Ted: What's your point?
Tommy: The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.
Ted: But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?
Tommy: Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of ********************. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.

(just vote no by not calling in)

And you think that the "guarantee" of a SAPA negotiated "agreement" with management is worth anything? WTF? Ummm, last time I checked, SAPA has done nothing for us!

Oh, yeah GO SAPA, GO SAPA! SAPA has so much REAL BARGINING POWER! They can go to JA, BH, and boys and tell them what to do. And, golly gee wizz they will just listen and do whatever SAPA says. Are u freaking kidding me!!!!

TALK ABOUT WRAPPING THINGS UP IN A BOX! Oh, We have Sked+ - yippee do da! Hmmm, they were kind of quick to get Sked+ up and running weren't they? Makes you kind of start to wonder why so they were so quick to put up the cute little posters and flyers up in crew lounges!

On the other hand, I did get a new lunchbox and a flight attendent binder for my already bound FOM. At a cost to the company that I would have rather seen in form of a decent pay proposal that would have made a difference in my life.

So, keeping on drinking the kool-aid.

Again to beat a dead horse.............

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THERE IS SAPA. MANAGEMENT HAS NO, I REPEAT NO, LEGAL OBLIGATION TO DO ANYTHING SAPA SAYS.

SAPA CAN "NEGOTIATE" AND "BARGIN" ALL THEY WANT. IT DOESN'T MATTER. IT IS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY!

SAPA HAS NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING TO NEGOTIATE WITH.

HOW CAN U NEGOTIATE WITH MANAGEMENT WHEN YOU ARE FUNDED BY MANAGEMENT, WHEN THERE IS NO LEGAL, BINDING AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES, WHEN MANAGEMENT CAN CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME AS WELL AS THE PLAYING FIELD AND YOU HAVE NO LEGAL RECOURSE!

THAT IS NOT NEGOTIATING OR BEING REPRESENTED!

AS YOU QUOTED EARLIER...."feel all warm and toasty inside." ISN'T THAT WHAT SAPA DOES BEST?

SAPA IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF "THE BOX OF CRA%"

 

[jea]

Yeah, what I find very funny now is that Skywest Mgmt. is resorting to "threatening" company emails to all of its pilots. Nice job, and some of you complain about "ALPA thugs?" What kind of threats did ASA hear before this thing was TA'd?

Trojan

threatening emails? I just checked- i must be off the threatening email list