Class date at United and jetBlue

[sonic340]

Serious question that I've been having a hard time with. I've got a class date at United and also one with jetBlue and I'm trying to make the best decision possible since my crystal ball seems to be broken. I've got a pro/con list for both and am having a difficult time with this one. Any valuable insight?

 

[pilotgolfer]

Serious question that I've been having a hard time with. I've got a class date at United and also one with jetBlue and I'm trying to make the best decision possible since my crystal ball seems to be broken. I've got a pro/con list for both and am having a difficult time with this one. Any valuable insight?

Where do you live? Do you mind doing redeyes? How do you look in a blue shirt? Where do you currently work?

Lots to consider.

 

[sonic340]

Live in ND. Never done redeyes. Do I really want to be on the bottom of 8000+ with not much hiring forecast and very little retirements? Or take a chance at jetBlue being around for the long haul? A couple of the many questions with no clear answer. 6 years ago I'd have given my right arm to get an offer from United and how strange it seems now that I even have to think about it.
Are you making the switch from jb to ual?

 

[race#53]

sonic,
i would go with UAL, you will get a type in the 737 for free then you can go to.......

 

[1Speedbird]

If you plan to stay in ND United would be an easier commute. If you are planning on moving anyway I would take a good look a JB.

 

[stillflyn]

I left a CA job at JB a year ago to return to UAL. I still don't have any second thoughts. If it helps..... depending on where you want to commute to, both ORD and DEN had unfilled A320 bids that will go to newhires. You are also PIC typed in all a/c at UAL if you care.

Long call/ short call on reserve works pretty well and if you can work through the first year pay the 16% B and C fund starts to add up pretty fast.

Hard decision though..... good luck!

Stillflyn

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Whats Bonnie doing?

 

[Getter]

For what its worth... I have buddies at Jet Blue and buddies at UAL. The UAL guys seem somewhat less miserable than the Blue group. I think I'd go to UAL.

 

[Huggyu2]

UAL.
I don't understand the comment made about "not many retirements coming up". I believe UAL is retiring about 3% of their pilot list each year, but I don't have those figures in front of me.

 

[najet]

I spent 4 of my 5 years at UAL commuting to reserve (my choice) and realize only now that its time I'll never get back. I was furloughed from UAL in 2003 and came to JB and am now a bus captain living in base. I'll likely make much more money over the next 5 years at JB, although, I'm likely giving up greater career earnings at UAL. Its taken me a long time to learn - and you have to realize this for yourself - you can always make money, but, you can't make time. I can't emphasize this concept enough - this is what compelled me to resign from UAL last week to stay at JB. If I lived in ORD,DEN, DCA, etc., etc., I would have gone back to UAL in 2005 and never looked back.
As stated in previous posts, pick the airline that promises the best quality of life - each have unique advantages/disadvantages and I believe both will be viable over the short/intermediate term. United will be negatively impacted by age 65 to a much greater extent and perhaps has a greater risk of merger or acquisition as well as labor issues coming to a head. Jetblue offers less career diversity at present (versus UAL) and has taken on a lot of debt which may or may not yield returns in the next 5 or 10 years.
Best of luck in your decision-making!

 

[ualdriver]

UAL.
I don't understand the comment made about "not many retirements coming up". I believe UAL is retiring about 3% of their pilot list each year, but I don't have those figures in front of me.

I'm pretty sure those are good numbers. That's how many guys are retiring at UAL per year assuming Age 60.

Good luck with your decision sonic.



2007 - 263
2008 - 235
2009 - 231
2010 - 201
2011 - 167
2012 - 228
2013 - 246
2014 - 239
2015 - 271
2016 - 330
2017 - 305
2018 - 383
2019 - 356
2020 - 461
2021 - 508
2022 - 503
2023 - 574
2025 - 539
2026 - 561
2027 – 407

 

[Rook]

sonic,
i would go with UAL, you will get a type in the 737 for free then you can go to.......

Where can you go with an SIC 737 type?? Unless he stays long enough to upgrade.

 

[D-Bo]

Where can you go with an SIC 737 type?? Unless he stays long enough to upgrade.

Everyone coming back or going through an a/c transition is PIC typed. Not SIC.

 

[Rook]

Everyone coming back or going through an a/c transition is PIC typed. Not SIC.

But new-hires??

 

[D-Bo]

But new-hires??

New hires too. Everyone.

 

[Rook]

New hires too. Everyone.

Thanks for correcting me D. Didn't know that. I knew CAL was doing that but not UAL. Sorry race. I stand corrected.

 

[Lampshade]

UAL has my vote. JetBlue is played.

 

[regionaltard]

I'd get my sim chops down at JB and then head for the airline that's harder to kill than a cockroach.

 

[Getter]

New hires too. Everyone.

Word.

 

[UALjan15]

This thread brings back a lot of memories from 7 years ago when I chose UAL over SWA. Like you, I asked a lot of questions of my peers at both places and tried to consider all of the pros and cons of both places. Also like you, my crystal ball was on MEL. Here are some nuggets I'll give you that I learned the hard way.

• Financial health of the airline is critical. It used to be that you just needed to get 10% of the list below you for furlough protection, but with everything that has gone down in the BK courts in the last 5 years, there is much more to think about. Don't ask pilots about the financial health of their airline--instead, ask investors. I missed the fact that UAL was burying themselves in debt years ago and had a terrible balance sheet. I focused instead on the size of the paychecks and retirement.
• Take a hard look at domiciles and ask yourself if you could be happy living in one of them. It is typical for pilots to underestimate the toll that commuting takes on you.
• Take stock of the company cultures at both places. At UAL, things are pretty toxic and have been for a long time. There are people that enjoy working there, but they do so despite the poor culture. The company has not been properly led since Patterson left. JB had a good start in this area, but has been tested lately. This is where an insider's opinion can help.
• I like the fact that JB has decided to do their own small jet operation instead of outsourcing it. UAL's outsourcing after 9/11 cost me my job there.
• Size does not equal security
• Retirements do matter, though the age 65 thing is throwing up a cloud of uncertainty. Hires that are made to replace retirements are more stable than growth hiring, but growth hiring is going to get you a better schedule sooner.
• Where are you in age compared to all of the UAL hires made between 95 and 01? That was a huge hiring wave, and because I was older and at the end of the wave, I reasoned that I would have to wait a long time to hold international. That factored in to my decision not to return.

Good luck with your decision. The career is a crap shoot for sure. People always told me that I made the best decision at the time, but I still believe that if I'd dug a little deeper in my analysis, I'd be a SWA Captain today.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

I'd be a SWA Captain today.

Think of all the taxes you'd have to pay! Who needs all that money anyway? :laugh:

Unit

 

[kie8nunu]

I have friends with good seniority at JB who are deciding to accept recall at USAir!!!! If thats not a statement then I don't know what is. I'd go UA. Either way..good luck.

 

[nosoupforyou!]

But new-hires??

That will change. Once the company figures out it's a great way to keep newbies from getting a type an running, they will switch the policy to SIC types only which is less marketable.

Independence did this little trick when it did not cost them ONE THIN DIME to allow the lad to take a PIC type ride. Training costs were identical.

And yes, our MEC could do nothing about it.

 

[Headfake14]

I have friends with good seniority at JB who are deciding to accept recall at USAir!!!! If thats not a statement then I don't know what is. I'd go UA. Either way..good luck.

Yea...there are like 500 guys from Airways. Maybe less then 10% will go back. Everyone I've flown with from Airways is happy here (JB) and staying.



Someone said "JB is played"...........I love being the underdog.

 

[asadonkey]

hey headfake, how is your sister? grrrrrrrrrr......

 

[sonic340]

Thank you very much for the input everyone. Many great points have been made that I hadn't thought of. I especially appreciate the input/insight from the guys who have been there-done that as a lot can be learned from experience.

UNITED
I would have a 1 leg commute to ORD or DEN with UAL. Opportunity to fly international someday down the road. They have a good chunk of cash in the bank. Then again, Tilton's been shopping around for a merger for how long now? No aircraft on order, not sure how the reserve works since I'll be on reserve forever. QOL? Not sure for a junior commuter.

JETBLUE
2 leg commute to JFK. Very good QOL with decent days off and shorter reserve time. Not bad pay starting out. Lots of debt and not sure what lies ahead for them if they can weather a storm so to speak if something comes along.
Many Many other points too numerous to get into here. But thanks again everyone. I'll keep doing my homework.

 

[Spectre]

Thank you very much for the input everyone. Many great points have been made that I hadn't thought of. I especially appreciate the input/insight from the guys who have been there-done that as a lot can be learned from experience.

UNITED
I would have a 1 leg commute to ORD or DEN with UAL. Opportunity to fly international someday down the road. They have a good chunk of cash in the bank. Then again, Tilton's been shopping around for a merger for how long now? No aircraft on order, not sure how the reserve works since I'll be on reserve forever. QOL? Not sure for a junior commuter.

JETBLUE
2 leg commute to JFK. Very good QOL with decent days off and shorter reserve time. Not bad pay starting out. Lots of debt and not sure what lies ahead for them if they can weather a storm so to speak if something comes along.
Many Many other points too numerous to get into here. But thanks again everyone. I'll keep doing my homework.

Never been a furlough at JetBlue even after 9/11. As soon as the next downturn hits at UAUA, you will get your furlough letter.

Don't worry about retirements, what is UAUA's growth. JB is still a healthy 10% and that's where you will gain in better QOL. If age 65 is the retirement age, forget moving up via retirements at UAUA.

One leg commute is a big plus for going with UAUA. Two hoppers stink.

If you need a type in a B-737, then just pay 5K at Higher Power. Don't make a type rating at one airline make your decision. You can get a real type by upgrading to Captain on the E190 in 2-3 years at JB.

My 2 cents.

 

[On Your Six]

No question given the two choices I would choose UAL.

I am former UAL (I did not accept recall because I found a great Part 91 gig) and I have friends at both UAL and JB. The JB guys are not optimistic about the situation going forward and a few are looking at other gigs. The UAL guys are a bit uncertain about UAL's strategic plan (or lack thereof) but they are not bailing out yet. Two of my UAL friends just transitioned to the 777 fleet and they are very happy with their schedules/layovers after years on the 300/500 and Airbus.

If you go to JB, you will have to fly into and out of JFK for at least awhile - and that is a complete nightmare. I can't imagine flying into that mess multiple times per day. On top of that, you would have to live with the uncertainty surrounding JB's future in a very difficult, low-cost environment. DAL is intent on pounding it into the ground at JFK while other lower-cost upstart airlines like Virgin America and Skybus continue to lower fares and reduce JB's margins on some key routes. The low-cost carriers will impact all airlines including UAL, but other LCCs with huge aircraft orders (Air Tran has 50+ 737-700s on order, Spirit has 30-40 A319s on order and SWA has 100+ 737-700s on order) will have to put their new airplanes somewhere, and any successful route for JB will likely be targeted (resulting in lower margins for all). The LCC industry will become a blood-bath and consolidation could very well happen in the next few years (and merging seniority lists will be fun - just look at USAirways/AWA).

Sure, this decision could be a crap shoot. UAL could very well merge with someone soon too. However, I doubt that the Department of Justice will allow a big merger that would result in fewer consumer choices. The Delta/USAirways merger would have never happened because of overlapping hubs/routes that would have required consolidation and fewer choices for consumers in some markets. I think a big merger would only be allowed if liquidation were IMMINENT and thousands of jobs were at stake (USAirways/AWA) and hubs were not overlapping. So, Tilton can continue to look for merger partners, but a partner that fits the bill might not materialize... I think UAL offers fewer risks than JB - plus, you can fly international routes (beyond Cancun and the Caribbean) and someday fly bigger equipment like the 777 and 747-400 if you ever have the desire - it would be nice to at least have that choice.

I'd choose UAL. That's my $0.02.

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

Serious question that I've been having a hard time with. I've got a class date at United and also one with jetBlue and I'm trying to make the best decision possible since my crystal ball seems to be broken. I've got a pro/con list for both and am having a difficult time with this one. Any valuable insight?

Insight? Think about it like this: Would you rather be punched in the face or the nuts? That should help.

 

[freightdogfred]

Insight? Think about it like this: Would you rather be punched in the face or the nuts? That should help.

There's always one joker in the crowd, but I gotta admit that's pretty funny stuff. Not too far off the mark as well. This crazy bizness is just a friggin crapshoot. Ya might as well roll some chicken bones, or break out a oujii board. I'll give ya my two cents, I've been a commuter for twenty years, and you'll tire of a 2-leg commute real fast.