ASA MEC job seminar September, with Air, Inc.

[AsaLossPaywAlpa]

ASA MEC job seminar September 15
and 25

:smash:ALPA trying to show they care? Bull Shilt. Why else support a job fair for people that already have a job?

I understand trying to help fellow pilots. Those that want to move on to Majors. But WTF is this crap. ASA fading away, as planned?

 

[601Pilot]

ASA MEC job seminar September 15
and 25

:smash:ALPA trying to show they care? Bull Shilt. Why else support a job fair for people that already have a job?

I understand trying to help fellow pilots. Those that want to move on to Majors. But WTF is this crap. ASA fading away, as planned?

hahahaha....we already have a $HITTY job, but most of us want a better job. I expect alot of cancelled flights those two days!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Anyone else see the irony here......

ALPA is telling the Skywest pilots that they need ALPA, while at the same time they are telling ASA pilots to leave.... even if it means leaving for a non-ALPA company......

ALPA job hunting seminar for ASA pilots..... FREE....

ALPA organization effort at Skywest.... Thousands of dollars....

ASA ALPA pilot using ALPA's free service to leave for Skywest....... PRICELESS......

 

[Medeco]

You sooo funnyy!




NOT!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

You sooo funnyy!




NOT!!!

Actually none of this is very funny..... Do you have a good explanation as to why ALPA is telling the Skywest pilots that life will suck without ALPA, while simultaneously it tells the ASA ALPA pilots that it can't do anything for them but help them find another job.... even if it means leaving for a non-ALPA carrier? Kinda ironic don't ya think.....

 

[jegermeister]

I think it's a great idea. Everyone wins.

1. ALPA gets a chance to help it's members better them self, while at the same time putting pressure on the company.

2. I get to sharpen my resume before an interview with CAL, UAL, NWA, etc....

3. The company gets to reap some of the seeds they've sewn.

All in all it's a real home run.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think it's a great idea. Everyone wins.

1. ALPA gets a chance to help it's members better them self, while at the same time putting pressure on the company.

2. I get to sharpen my resume before an interview with CAL, UAL, NWA, etc....

3. The company gets to reap some of the seeds they've sewn.

All in all it's a real home run.

1. It won't exactly instill confidence in ALPA with the Skywest pilots.... They have better job security WITHOUT ALPA....

2. It perpetuates the master/apprentice relationship that has been created... If these jobs continue to be "stepping stone" jobs, they will remain low cost jobs - with or without ALPA. If they remain low cost jobs, this will continue to put downward pressure on the coveted mainline jobs...

3. It doesn't exactly instill confidence in ALPA with the senior ASA ALPA members who have the most to lose and very little to gain with what is left on the table.... Are the senior ASA ALPA pilots expendable?

4. The company wants people to leave.... it lowers their costs which help it compete in the portfolio...

 

[TurboAWD]

The reason ALPA hosts events like this (they did the same thing at XJ) is that in the absence of a cooling-off period, attrition is one of the most powerful pieces of negotiations leverage ALPA has.

It is not contradictory to representing your pilots, quite the opposite actually. What it says is, your current job may be at ASA, but your career is that of professional pilot, and ALPA is here to help your entire career, not just this job.

Turbo

 

[AsaLossPaywAlpa]

Then why not before, today. Why not do this 3 years ago? 6 years ago? 6 months ago? 1 year ago?
So your reasoning is BS.
If they were concerned about me/you why not help us before.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The reason ALPA hosts events like this (they did the same thing at XJ) is that in the absence of a cooling-off period, attrition is one of the most powerful pieces of negotiations leverage ALPA has.

It is not contradictory to representing your pilots, quite the opposite actually. What it says is, your current job may be at ASA, but your career is that of professional pilot, and ALPA is here to help your entire career, not just this job.

Turbo

I might believe that if ALPA actually did something to allow us to transfer our seniority/longevity to the next job..... however unlike any other profession, we are forced to start all over again.... No other "profession" does that....

It also sends a message to the Skywest pilots.... We couldn't protect the ASA, ACA, ALG, CCAir, Mesaba, or CMR pilots, but you really need us....

Forget the Kit Darby sales pitch.... protect my job or allow me to make a lateral move.... until then I will continue to see ALPA for what it has become.... a total failure......

 

[FishandFly]

joe, I'm not an alpa freak, but your negativity is absurd.

How do you fail to recognize that the majority of pay, benefits, and work rules afforded to regional airlines as a whole is because of the negotiating of our union representation.

Without the fear of a united workforce, these corporations have zero reason or desire to make this a decent place.

 

[JoeMerchant]

joe, I'm not an alpa freak, but your negativity is absurd.

How do you fail to recognize that the majority of pay, benefits, and work rules afforded to regional airlines as a whole is because of the negotiating of our union representation.

Without the fear of a united workforce, these corporations have zero reason or desire to make this a decent place.

Exactly FishandFly....see we agree more than you think...... The problem is we (ALPA/airline pilots) are not a "united workforce"..... If we were we wouldn't be competing with each other for flying.... Just think what we could do if we were truly "united"....

The fact is, the Skywest pilots have it better than most union regionals, and we are not a unified workforce..... Time for ALPA to get with the times....

 

[FishandFly]

The fact that all airline pilots are not a united workforce is irrelevant. I agree that it likely would have been better over the course of history if all were united, but since that is not the case, we must deal with what we have.

Arguing that we would be better off in a perfect world does not take away from the fact that unions have played a significant role in the pursuit of this being a decent job.

Take ASA. This company's corporate mentality sucks, and they would much rather have the lowest paid and least benefited employee group in aviation because they lack the ability to see past the expense half of ac income statement.

You mention Skywest deceivingly. Do they have decent work rules and pay? Yes. But you miss the point completely if you fail to ask why.

Take a look at this:
http://asacontract.com/pa/documents/Contract_4.XLS

Notice that Skywest is right in the mix with all of the other carriers.

Skywest management is faced with a need to fill their cockpits with pilots. Pay less than everyone else and they lose pilots and are unable to get newhires.

This is called "riding on the coattails of others"

 

[JoeMerchant]

The fact that all airline pilots are not a united workforce is irrelevant. I agree that it likely would have been better over the course of history if all were united, but since that is not the case, we must deal with what we have.

There you have it folks.... ALPA has failed as a union to unifiy us.... even the ALPA supporters admit it...

Even you admit that we aren't unitied.... I disagree that it is impossible for ALPA to unify us, but if it is impossible, then I am not interested in supporting ALPA....

Arguing that we would be better off in a perfect world does not take away from the fact that unions have played a significant role in the pursuit of this being a decent job.

So you admit that this is a "decent job".... what if some of us are interested in keeping our seniority at this "decent job"? Being senior at a "decent job" is much better than starting over again at the bottom of another "decent job".... something to think about....

Take ASA. This company's corporate mentality sucks, and they would much rather have the lowest paid and least benefited employee group in aviation because they lack the ability to see past the expense half of ac income statement.

The regional model in this fee-for-departure competition is based on cheap costs.... A regional with all 18 year pilots can't compete with a Mesa with 1-5 year pilots.... The model isn't designed for people to hang around and that benefits management.... It makes more sense for ASA pilots to move on after a certain time so that they can be replaced by cheaper pilots..... The scary thing is that some of you don't understand that....

 

[frapper]

The reason ALPA hosts events like this (they did the same thing at XJ) is that in the absence of a cooling-off period, attrition is one of the most powerful pieces of negotiations leverage ALPA has.

It is not contradictory to representing your pilots, quite the opposite actually. What it says is, your current job may be at ASA, but your career is that of professional pilot, and ALPA is here to help your entire career, not just this job.

Turbo

Exactly! Someone can actually see the forest for the trees -- very nice.

All you others never cease to amaze me! Y'all must be an absolute treat to fly with!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Exactly! Someone can actually see the forest for the trees -- very nice.

All you others never cease to amaze me! Y'all must be an absolute treat to fly with!

Just think what leverage ALPA could have if they negotiated as a SINGLE voice within a brand....

Just think what leverage ALPA would have if we tightened up on the requirements to be a 121 pilot....

Just think what leverage ALPA would have if we could transport our seniority/longevity across company lines...

Oh sorry..... I was looking at the forest.....

Frapper, from your profile, I see that your "pants are around your ankle and you are taking it from ASA managment".....

Are you saying that the best ALPA can do is to encourage ASA pilots to leave? What message does that send the Skywest pilots when everyone says they need ALPA? The best ALPA will do for them is to increase their attition? Is that the best ALPA can offer? That probably won't get the Skywest pilots on board.... Maybe if ALPA could actually put a stop to the whipsaw within the brand..... you might get more to sign on..... Oh there I go again looking at the forest.......

In this environment, you don't really need ALPA to help you find another job.... there are plenty out there.....

 

[av8er2]

Simple:

1. ALPA wants to put pressure on mgt by helping even more pilots find other jobs and leave.

2. They know mgt is up to something and plans to shrink ASA a lot and transfer planes.

There is a lot of clues out there to support both. I tend to think it is #2.

 

[PCL_128]

The reason ALPA hosts events like this (they did the same thing at XJ) is that in the absence of a cooling-off period, attrition is one of the most powerful pieces of negotiations leverage ALPA has.

It is not contradictory to representing your pilots, quite the opposite actually. What it says is, your current job may be at ASA, but your career is that of professional pilot, and ALPA is here to help your entire career, not just this job.

Turbo

Bingo!!! At least someone around here has some brains and is able to think strategically.

This is not a new concept, as TurboAWD pointed out. This was a superb tool to create leverage that the XJ MEC came up with. It worked wonders, and they ended up with a bankruptcy contract that was actually more expensive than the contract they started with! Other regional MECs in contract negotiations are also considering this strategy. If the Bush administration and his lap-dog NMB won't follow the law and allow labor to exert leverage the old-fashioned way, then ALPA will just come up with new ways. This is a tried-and-true way, and I'm glad the ASA MEC and SPC are trying it.

 

[FishandFly]

Joe, your logic is flawed. Just because you don't like the system does not give strength to your negativity. Responding to every argument with theoretical arguments about how and why the system is less than perfect is similar to not liking a company's aborted t/o procedure, and explaining to everyone you fly with how it should be done in a perfect world. Then the other pilot asks you what we should do if we need to abort and you just keep explaining to him how horrible the procedure is, never answering his question.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Just think what leverage ALPA would have if we tightened up on the requirements to be a 121 pilot....

I can't argue with this at all. Given the lack of qualifications and flying skills that I seem to be saddled with every other month, I am a wholehearted supporter of the concept of higher entry requirements. I think ATP minimums would be a good place to start. However, the game is already underway, and we can't change the rules at halftime. Did ALPA screw this one up?? Absolutely. Should we have positioned ourselves much like the AMA and demanded that we have control over the entry requirements of our profession? You bet. However, that ship has sailed. We have to make do with the rules we live by.

Just think what leverage ALPA would have if we could transport our seniority/longevity across company lines...

Except that would be unfair to all those who decided to leave the regionals at an appropriate time and make a short term sacrifice for a long term gain. To continue the medical analogy (one that I consider absurd, by the way...) My best friend is an orthopaedic surgeion. He left a practice he was a partner in to join a much more successful practice in a position that essentially amounts to a resident. However, he saw that the long term gain outweighed the short term loss. Just because you may have "missed the boat" when it comes to years served versus years left in your career does not mean that a universal seniority list benefits the rest of us. I am actively seeking employment outside of ASA. I am younger than you. If I do have the good luck to hire on elsewhere, what makes you think that you are entitled to my job and my upgrade simply based on the number of years you spent shuffling around an ATR at a two-bit regional airline?? After all, I am the one who took the initiative to actually seek out a better job. I am the one who planned responsibly for my future. I am the one who scrimped and saved for my wife and my child, realizing I would take a pay cut when I decided to leave. Your pipe dream of a national seniority list reeks of laziness and a sense of entitlement.

Are you saying that the best ALPA can do is to encourage ASA pilots to leave?

Sadly enough, ASA is not, nor should it be, a career airline. One of my closest friends at this company (a 20+ year Captain) grabs me by the shoulders every time he sees me and says, "What are you still doing here? You owe it to yourself and to your family to find something else." He's right. You bash ALPA and villify the "rules of the game", but you fail to realize that ASA management does not want you around. You cost too much, plain and simple. Your experience and decision making skills are outweighed by your hourly rate. You are a financial liability to them. You should have moved on years ago. Perhaps you tried and were unsuccessful. If so, that's unfortunate. I know you... better than you think (unless I miss my guess). You're one hell of a bright guy, and a damm good pilot. You really do deserve better than ASA.


However.... ASA is the home you have chosen for yourself, and you knew the rules of the game when you made that choice. As far as I am concerned, the time has come for you to make peace with that choice. The fact that you chose to live here does not give you the right to attempt to block the emergency exits for the rest of us.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Did ALPA screw this one up?? Absolutely. Should we have positioned ourselves much like the AMA and demanded that we have control over the entry requirements of our profession? You bet. However, that ship has sailed. We have to make do with the rules we live by.

Sadly enough, ASA is not, nor should it be, a career airline. One of my closest friends at this company (a 20+ year Captain) grabs me by the shoulders every time he sees me and says, "What are you still doing here? You owe it to yourself and to your family to find something else." He's right. You bash ALPA and villify the "rules of the game", but you fail to realize that ASA management does not want you around. You cost too much, plain and simple. Your experience and decision making skills are outweighed by your hourly rate.

ASA is the home you have chosen for yourself, and you knew the rules of the game when you made that choice. As far as I am concerned, the time has come for you to make peace with that choice. The fact that you chose to live here does not give you the right to attempt to block the emergency exits for the rest of us.

I agree with some of what you say. But you have to understand Joe's (and my) perspective. When I hired into ASA, ASA did 100% of Delta's "connection" flying in two major hubs & some NYC. The company was growing by feeding passengers to Delta using its own tickets, routes, marketing and finance. It could, and did, feed other major carriers. It had its own 100 seat jets on the property.

For a guy who liked to fly - ASA was flying. Our new President was telling us that the future was so bright at ASA that it was a career airline and Comair got a career airline contract, with pay, retirement and good benefits. It seemed like a good place to call home and earn six figures back when six figures was some real money.

ASA at times has been a stepping stone job. It has also been a pretty good job at other times. For Joe to break even going to the bottom of another airlines' list, it would take him 11 to 12 years to break even (unless that airline was UPS or FedEx). I made the jump and my lifetime earnings look like a E120 V1 cut profile with an unfeathered propeller.

It is the union's #1 job to protect Joe's job.

It is harsh to tell any good pilot that his "skills and experience are outweighed by his hourly rate." People trust on that "skill and experience."

In medicine the State Boards have increased standards and continue to do so. If the pilots wanted to make an ATP the de-facto standard for new hire entry (I think that was the idea back in the day - I had to have it before even ASA would interview me) it could be done. My wife has to jump through hoops she never did before because almost every year the State Board (which is a private business) comes up with something new they require everyone to accomplish. It could be done, we (the members of ALPA) just need to push for it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree with some of what you say. But you have to understand Joe's (and my) perspective. When I hired into ASA, ASA did 100% of Delta's "connection" flying in two major hubs & some NYC. The company was growing by feeding passengers to Delta using its own tickets, routes, marketing and finance. It could, and did, feed other major carriers. It had its own 100 seat jets on the property.

For a guy who liked to fly - ASA was flying. Our new President was telling us that the future was so bright at ASA that it was a career airline and Comair got a career airline contract, with pay, retirement and good benefits. It seemed like a good place to call home and earn six figures back when six figures was some real money.

ASA at times has been a stepping stone job. It has also been a pretty good job at other times. For Joe to break even going to the bottom of another airlines' list, it would take him 11 to 12 years to break even (unless that airline was UPS or FedEx). I made the jump and my lifetime earnings look like a E120 V1 cut profile with an unfeathered propeller.

It is the union's #1 job to protect Joe's job.

It is harsh to tell any good pilot that his "skills and experience are outweighed by his hourly rate." People trust on that "skill and experience."

In medicine the State Boards have increased standards and continue to do so. If the pilots wanted to make an ATP the de-facto standard for new hire entry (I think that was the idea back in the day - I had to have it before even ASA would interview me) it could be done. My wife has to jump through hoops she never did before because almost every year the State Board (which is a private business) comes up with something new they require everyone to accomplish. It could be done, we (the members of ALPA) just need to push for it.

Well said Fins.... how are you enjoying things so far?

 

[VeeOne]

Honestly, I am not sure how I feel about this job seminar. In one hand, I feel like I am being slapped in the face by ALPA, and on the other, I am looking at it as a resource and an opportunity. It should be up to me to decide wheather I go or stay. ALPA is trying to tell me that I should go, but won't provide me the opportunity to vote on a company proposal before I do, which may make it a fairly decent place to stay?

Truth is I was very shaky regarding our elected reps, but I have come to respect and downright like many of them. However, I'm still frustrated by the current situation and much of the blame rests on politics. I am thinking this is quite simple, really- see what happens over the next month or two and then, depending on the outcome (SkyWest vote), put on a road show and put this thing up for a vote. It's rediculous to keep waiting for a release, all the while uttering....it will be the next meeting, the next meeting, the next meeting, the next meeting, the next meeting.............Tomlin seems to understand that a release may not be obtainable, so where is the plan B? Or is the mass attrition and career expo it?

I can accept much of what the company proposes with binding scope and job protection within SkyWest (given the current political climate). The pay sucks, but something is better than nothing. The scheduling is ok, and much better than we have now, as long as there is no PBS, BS. And as for the 9 mil- 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Hey Fins, hate to hear that you left us, but certainly understand why. Hopefully the pasture is greener and you get to enjoy the fruits of your sacrifice as things progress with your new job. Just don't forget about your fellow pilots down here in the regional world, and don't forget your roots! Best of luck....

 

[XJohXJ]

ALPA is not telling you that you should leave your airline. ALPA is simply saying "ASA's management is refusing to respect their workers, and the current political environment (or in Mesaba's case, judicial environment) is 100% opposed to encouraging any real solutions. Therefore, if you would like to go to greener pastures, ALPA has the resources to assist you, if you'd like.

A lot of working pilots lack the time or energy to actively seek upward employment. Sometimes they could just use a little nudge to get them going. At Mesaba, many Captains hadn't filled out their "interview" logbooks in months or even years. Along came a job fair, and guys woke up and got motivated. ALPA is doing you a huge favor. They are giving you your very own personal job fair, where employers are coming to hire ASA pilots, who they know to be a highly skilled group. You don't need to go to the job fair, if you don't want to.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

It is harsh to tell any good pilot that his "skills and experience are outweighed by his hourly rate." People trust on that "skill and experience."

It's not my opinion. It is the opinion of the leadership at ASA. After 5 years, you cost more than you are worth in their eyes.

 

[~~~^~~~]

It's not my opinion. It is the opinion of the leadership at ASA. After 5 years, you cost more than you are worth in their eyes.

I know. The first time I heard Bryan LaBreque tell us his 5 year and out plan for pilots I could not believe what I was hearing. He also said "safety is a given."

Of course, neither he, nor anyone like him will be on the jumpseat when you are performing a CATII at crosswind limits, or dealing with a deferral pushing 15:00 of duty, or simply flying a non-precision with a 300 hour pilot on the third continuous duty overnight.\

As a line pilot, you know how often the decisions you make impact safety. It is a real shame that realization is disappearing amongst the rest of the "team."

I'm glad ALPA is holding the job seminar. There is good information out there when folks work together. I don't think it is an indicator of a dark conspiracy, just an opportunity to get together and pull resources.

These airline interviews at some level are all "beauty contests." An interview is a check ride. The better prepared you are, the better you look. If ALPA can save you a few hundred bucks on prep, why not? Heck, see if you can talk ALPA into giving away a couple 737 type ratings.

 

[Speedtape]

Exactly FishandFly....see we agree more than you think...... The problem is we (ALPA/airline pilots) are not a "united workforce"..... If we were we wouldn't be competing with each other for flying.... Just think what we could do if we were truly "united"....

The fact is, the Skywest pilots have it better than most union regionals, and we are not a unified workforce..... Time for ALPA to get with the times....

Time for you to fill out that SkyWest application! Afterall, you don't need ALPA!

 

[Speedtape]

I know. The first time I heard Bryan LaBreque tell us his 5 year and out plan for pilots I could not believe what I was hearing. He also said "safety is a given."

Of course, neither he, nor anyone like him will be on the jumpseat when you are performing a CATII at crosswind limits, or dealing with a deferral pushing 15:00 of duty, or simply flying a non-precision with a 300 hour pilot on the third continuous duty overnight.\

As a line pilot, you know how often the decisions you make impact safety. It is a real shame that realization is disappearing amongst the rest of the "team."

I'm glad ALPA is holding the job seminar. There is good information out there when folks work together. I don't think it is an indicator of a dark conspiracy, just an opportunity to get together and pull resources.

These airline interviews at some level are all "beauty contests." An interview is a check ride. The better prepared you are, the better you look. If ALPA can save you a few hundred bucks on prep, why not? Heck, see if you can talk ALPA into giving away a couple 737 type ratings.

Fins,

Think about this! Who is losing their jobs at ASA? It's all those unprotected people in the G.O. Soon, the leadership team will be leading nothing!

They have already lost the pilots, flight attendants, and little do they know, the mechanics! Hey, but in every weekly message, they appreciate the job that we do everyday!

These folks are only #1 at one thing; running a company into the ground! Otherwise, they are only #20 because: (drum roll please) There is no #21, yet!

 

[Speedtape]

In this environment, you don't really need ALPA to help you find another job.... there are plenty out there.....

The proverbial door hasn't slapped you in the arse yet, has it? Maybe, you can ride off in the sunset with the last ATR!

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Maybe it's time to oust BL. He's doing a job that any 1st yr. Harvard business school grad could do, and he cost too much! I think that might have been JA's line of reasoning when Liesure suit Larry's (RR) job went away, and he was replaced by a 5yr CPA at SKW (CC).

ASA MEC, next negotiation point that out to BL and watch him squirm. ;-)