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ATC gives JBLU special treatment at JFK

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lowecur

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 14, 2003
Posts
2,317
Looking at the numbers, I guess it's no secret that JBLU is the favored airline at JFK. From USA Today:

JetBlue Airways' much-chronicled Valentine's Day massacre at New York/Kennedy Airport continues to obscure an operational reality: At the brutally overscheduled airline, JetBlue is best of an admittedly dull class. Overall, only 52.8% of flights at JFK arrived on-time in June. But JFK-based JetBlue delivered a 59.2% performance. American's international hub and domestic feeder operations were notably worse. Just 45.7% of American flights arrived on-time at JFK and American Eagle (58.5 percent) wasn't too much better. And then there is Delta Air Lines, which has launched dozens of international flights and hundreds of domestic feeder services at JFK since late 2005. The aircraft operated by Delta at JFK managed an on-time performance of just 38.5% in June while its two commuter carriers (Comair at 47.8% and Mesa at 48.6%) were almost as bad.

Match that with other hubs in June:

In an endless stream of bad news about airline hubs, only Delta's relatively uncrowded Salt Lake City connecting facility continues to operate at anything like acceptable levels. Almost 79% of June flights at SLC arrived on-time. Compare that to other major hubs: Atlanta (67.9 percent); Charlotte (62.4 percent); Chicago/O'Hare (64.9 percent); Detroit/Metro (69.2 percent); Miami (61.8 percent); Newark (52.2 percent); Philadelphia (58.6 percent); and Washington/Dulles (63.8 percent). Phoenix (75 percent) did well, too, but given the general disarray throughout the US Airways network, I'm reluctant to suggest that anyone fly them anywhere.

DFW:

American's notable decline in systemwide reliability in recent months continued in June. But American officials are quick to blame those aforementioned North Texas storms, which created havoc at its Dallas/Fort Worth hub. Plausible as that one-month excuse may sound, the numbers may not support it. Why? Just 12 miles away at Dallas/Love Field, where Southwest Airlines is king, the weather apparently wasn't as much of an obstacle. Because of the way the DOT reports the numbers, exact comparisons are difficult. But consider: American ran at 57.5% on-time at DFW and American Eagle was at 53.1%. At Love, however, the airport managed a 66.4% on-time rating—and virtually all of the flights there are operated by Southwest. DOT does not break out cancellations by airport, but American Eagle cancelled 5.9% of its systemwide flights in June while American cancelled 3.7% of its flights. But Southwest cancelled just 0.4% of its June flights. If the weather was such a distracting factor in Dallas, why were American/American Eagle's cancellations so large and Southwest's so small?

:pimp:​
 
Don't be a tool. Delta and American both operate a bunch of regional jets at JFK, without a ramp operation to support them. Delta's ramp operation in particular is a nightmare, with RJ's and Dash-8's lined up ten deep waiting to get into their ramp. Nothing in that implies ATC "special treatment". GMAFB.
 
Don't be a tool. Delta and American both operate a bunch of regional jets at JFK, without a ramp operation to support them. Delta's ramp operation in particular is a nightmare, with RJ's and Dash-8's lined up ten deep waiting to get into their ramp. Nothing in that implies ATC "special treatment". GMAFB.
Yes, I am the powerdrill.;)

Kind of looks like the regionals do much better than mainline for those carriers. Clue the clueless in!

:pimp:​
 
Ha, hahhaa, ha!!! Right, special treatment... ATC at JFK yells at everyone equally, from Delta's -8s looking for parking, to Jetblue trying to get into an alleyway, to the numerous foriegn carriers that don't know where they're going... I heard this last week at a TAM "TAM, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, keep it moving, keep it moving!!!! What are you doing TAM???@@!!!" Trust me, there's no favoritism at JFK, just seemingly uncontrolled chaos...
 
I am sorry LC, but JFK as all places is first come first served. Heck, if anything, I, being from JB, would believe DAL gets preferential treatment, landing on 31L when there are ten a/c lined up for departure on same, an endless stream on RJs and -8s.

However, with that in mind, I have little doubt DAL feels the same way about us, BA feels that way about Virgin, so the point being, there is no preferential treatment, it just feels like it when you are in the bottom of the pile.
 
If the weather was such a distracting factor in Dallas, why were American/American Eagle's cancellations so large and Southwest's so small?

:pimp:​

Wow, another bit of fascinating journalism. You would think they would actually take into account the difference in aircraft movements at both airports... Dallas Love has, what, 37 total gates? Compared to DFW's 150 or so, think that would impact the delays just a little, what with the logjam, on the taxiways... what a concept. Not that AA deserves credit or anything, but come on, there is quite a logistical difference between the two airports, traffic wise.

73

73
 
Looking at the numbers, I guess it's no secret that JBLU is the favored airline at JFK. From USA Today:

Poppycock! JBLU gets absoluteley positiveley no special treatment. B6 flights are spread throughout the day while the other carriers are more concentrated in the peak times.
 
ATC at JFK is terrible, and they do not give anyone good treatment at all. I don't know how they get away with it sometimes. All I know is that I seem to get a couple hours over block each time I go in there, and I usually bid away from it. Also, the controllers there love to speak fast to even INTL pilots who can hardly speak english, and when they ask for a second time they are yelled at by the ATC jerks. Welcome to New York! But the same could be said about Newark and even La Garbage. I just try to tell myself "fugetaboutit."

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
They had Marion Blakely on NBC tonight explaining why all the RJ's at the major airports? It's simple she said, people want frequency in lieu of comfortable large planes....so the airlines are free to run as many flts as they please. What a bunch of crap! Do they actually believe that people would rather sit on a taxiway or a ramp for 2 to 3 hrs in lieu of a smooth system with fewer flts. The real reason is there are too many RJs in the system and the majors can contract them cheaper than flying the heavy iron, and monopolize gate space to keep out LCCs. She also said she hopes Congress gives her the $20B needed to upgrade the system....she felt this would create more airspace. It'll never happen until we have a few major collisions at some of these hubs.....afterall we need money to pay the debt, fight the wars, and pay all the entitlements.

I am now driving 2 1/2 hrs to MCO to catch a n/s flt to SYR, in lieu of passing through JFK or any other overutilized hub deathtrap along the way. Thank the heavens that JBLU will be starting FLL n/s to SYR in Nov.

:pimp:
 
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ATC at JFK is terrible, and they do not give anyone good treatment at all. I don't know how they get away with it sometimes. All I know is that I seem to get a couple hours over block each time I go in there, and I usually bid away from it. Also, the controllers there love to speak fast to even INTL pilots who can hardly speak english, and when they ask for a second time they are yelled at by the ATC jerks. Welcome to New York! But the same could be said about Newark and even La Garbage. I just try to tell myself "fugetaboutit."

Bye Bye--General Lee
I dont think EWR or LGA are as bad as JFK.

Just my 00.02
 
I guess you didn't hear that JB remodeled JFK ATC's breakrooms with big screen TV's with NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB and NASCAR "Big Ticket, All Access".
JB also caters breakfast, lunch and dinner everyday.

It has worked so well, sick calls for JFK ATC have dropped 90%.
 
I guess you didn't hear that JB remodeled JFK ATC's breakrooms with big screen TV's with NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB and NASCAR "Big Ticket, All Access".
JB also caters breakfast, lunch and dinner everyday.

It has worked so well, sick calls for JFK ATC have dropped 90%.

Actually it's every other day.
 
I guess you didn't hear that JB remodeled JFK ATC's breakrooms with big screen TV's with NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB and NASCAR "Big Ticket, All Access".
JB also caters breakfast, lunch and dinner everyday.

It has worked so well, sick calls for JFK ATC have dropped 90%.
I knew it!;)

:pimp:​
 
They had Marion Blakely on NBC tonight explaining why all the RJ's at the major airports? It's simple she said, people want frequency in lieu of comfortable large planes....so the airlines are free to run as many flts as they please. What a bunch of crap! Do they actually believe that people would rather sit on a taxiway or a ramp for 2 to 3 hrs in lieu of a smooth system with fewer flts. The real reason is there are too many RJs in the system and the majors can contract them cheaper than flying the heavy iron, and monopolize gate space to keep out LCCs. She also said she hopes Congress gives her the $20B needed to upgrade the system....she felt this would create more airspace. It'll never happen until we have a few major collisions at some of these hubs.....afterall we need money to pay the debt, fight the wars, and pay all the entitlements.

I am now driving 2 1/2 hrs to MCO to catch a n/s flt to SYR, in lieu of passing through JFK or any other overutilized hub deathtrap along the way. Thank the heavens that JBLU will be starting FLL n/s to SYR in Nov.


:pimp:

Lowecur,

The real reason there are so many RJs at LGA or DCA is because every local politician in each of those smaller towns lobbied to have direct flights to major cities from their podunk towns. It's all about the bragging rights. Do we really need a nightly Eagle E135 from LGA to Bangor, Maine? How about LGA to Madison, WI? I don't really know if we do.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
This is the most ridicuouls and unfounded thread I've ever seen on here.

When I have 15 arrivals on my frequency at a time, for over an hour and a half on position, you really think I am sitting there thinking, damn I gotta move Jetblue to the front of the line, oh wait no, Delta has to go to 31L, oh no, another JBU A320, they are going first. No wait, Jetblue can have 4L, 22R or 31R since its close for them, let me change the sequence now. Haha, right.

General, I cant speak for the tower at JFK, but if you really think this is the case, come get a headset and plug in on approach and lets see you push some tin around in the chopped up, convoluted, and saturated airspace over JFK. And while getting 50 arrivals down in an hour, you then tell me if you sat there contemplating how you would "hook up" Jetblue every time they showed up on your frequency.

Nonsense.
 
Thats a shame you feel that way. I can tell you the controllers at approach know they are working with some of the best pilots in the world.

ATC at JFK is terrible, and they do not give anyone good treatment at all. I don't know how they get away with it sometimes. All I know is that I seem to get a couple hours over block each time I go in there, and I usually bid away from it. Also, the controllers there love to speak fast to even INTL pilots who can hardly speak english, and when they ask for a second time they are yelled at by the ATC jerks. Welcome to New York! But the same could be said about Newark and even La Garbage. I just try to tell myself "fugetaboutit."

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Thanks atc,
lowecur is just mad that we haven't started the FLL/SYR flights soon enough for him.

lowecur, if you think we get the "special' treatment maybe you should plug in with either the tower or the tracon and see really how it happens. I took a tracon sup up to BUF yesterday and no one told us we could 'butt in line and be number one during the taxi out and when we took off we still made the right turn off 4L and followed Sun Country out the gate, leveled at 170 for a while, then direct NEION and on course. No direct BUF or anything out of the ordinary. Nada.
Prob'ly want to "re-imagine" that statement....
 
There should be a list somewhere-

Jetblue doesn't pay for its airplanes
Jetblue doesn't pay for its maintenance
Jetblue doesn't pay for gas
Jetblue stole gates at JFK, LGA ORD etc
and now,
Jetblue gets preferential treatment from ATC.

I am sure there is more.

A little bit of knowledge IS dangerous.
 
Lowecur,

The real reason there are so many RJs at LGA or DCA is because every local politician in each of those smaller towns lobbied to have direct flights to major cities from their podunk towns. It's all about the bragging rights. Do we really need a nightly Eagle E135 from LGA to Bangor, Maine? How about LGA to Madison, WI? I don't really know if we do.

Bye Bye--General Lee
That's bunk. What percentage of regional is actually from Podunk? Most of the regional stuff into the NYC area is 5-20 flts per day from small/medium and major markets around the NE and Midwest. Most of this stuff could easily be cut by 2/3 with mainline or 190s.

:pimp:​
 
That's bunk. What percentage of regional is actually from Podunk? Most of the regional stuff into the NYC area is 5-20 flts per day from small/medium and major markets around the NE and Midwest. Most of this stuff could easily be cut by 2/3 with mainline or 190s.


:pimp:​


the problem with that is say Delta cut some traffic by replacing 6 RJ flights with three mainline flights. Do you really think some other airline won't immediately add back those three flights that Delta cut? No one is going to cut flights until forced to do so by slot restrictions.
 
the problem with that is say Delta cut some traffic by replacing 6 RJ flights with three mainline flights. Do you really think some other airline won't immediately add back those three flights that Delta cut? No one is going to cut flights until forced to do so by slot restrictions.

While don't diasgree totally, I do believe JBU has offered to reduce flights at JFK, provided DAL would do the same. The answer was not positive.

I do believe that the feds are strongly considering requiring a certain number of seats on the airplanes serving the most delay prone airports. Not sure what that number would be, but on the surface, it seems like a good move. One that might even help the airlines, ie as opposed to flying 5 50 seat RJs, it could be three MD80s. Certainly the business traveller would not be happy, after all they prefer a flight every hour on the hour, however, with the growth in traffic and subsequent growth in delays, that simply isn't feasible.
 
The controllers are not responsible for teaching english to pilots. They are not responsible for baby sitting a "proffesional pilot" around an airport who should have the appropriate charts. A "professional pilot" should never utter the words "progressive taxi".

The JFK controllers expect you to land and have an idea where you are exiting the runway so that when you are given a taxi clearance you can effectively move your aircraft in the proper direction.

I do feel they need to do a much better job of taking care of their JFK based airlines.
 
The controllers are not responsible for teaching english to pilots. They are not responsible for baby sitting a "proffesional pilot" around an airport who should have the appropriate charts. A "professional pilot" should never utter the words "progressive taxi".

The JFK controllers expect you to land and have an idea where you are exiting the runway so that when you are given a taxi clearance you can effectively move your aircraft in the proper direction.

I do feel they need to do a much better job of taking care of their JFK based airlines.


You must have very little INTL experience. At most other airports around the world, other controllers are patient and nicer to American pilots.(except French airports maybe) New York airports aren't nice to anyone, and that is embarassing. You need to bid more Cancun and Aruba flights. The NYC guys should slow down their talk for specific airlines (like Air China and Aero Svit (from Kiev--763 everyday) and help them out. Otherwise, it really will be a problem for everyone when they don't repeat the clearance and cross a runway because they are afraid to ask. That is what you are missing here. Intimidation is dangerous.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Thanks atc,
lowecur is just mad that we haven't started the FLL/SYR flights soon enough for him.

lowecur, if you think we get the "special' treatment maybe you should plug in with either the tower or the tracon and see really how it happens. I took a tracon sup up to BUF yesterday and no one told us we could 'butt in line and be number one during the taxi out and when we took off we still made the right turn off 4L and followed Sun Country out the gate, leveled at 170 for a while, then direct NEION and on course. No direct BUF or anything out of the ordinary. Nada.
Prob'ly want to "re-imagine" that statement....

However....Virgin America did get special treatment and was moved to the front of the line on their inaugural flight last week. And, I have personally been the recipient of special treatment a couple of years ago when we had the daughter of some ATC big-wig onboard. All aircraft were departing 13R and landing 13L. We got 13L, departed immediately, got an immediate turn direct to RBV and direct to KMSY after that.

But, as far as special treatment for JB as ATC's M.O. in JFK....that is absolute nonsense. As another poster stated, JB spreads out their flights throughout the day, while others operate a higher percentage at peak times. It really is that simple!

GP
 
WOW, I agree with the General 100%
 
Yeah I do too... The General is right on regarding this. Foreign ATC is exceedingly patient with US carriers overseas... Even the french to some degree (but those b*tches speak french to eachother on the radio when talking amongst themselves so it can be hard to follow what's going on).
 

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