Regionals (Eagle) to start sheding Senion Pilots

[PA44Jockey]

Would like to hear if most people think this can be done in a diplomatic way as not to make the senior guys feel welcome anymore. Thoughts?

 

[Bruno82]

Eagle is not "forcing" anyone to leave. They are attempting to create an easier opportunity for senior guys to go elsewhere.

 

[DGdaPilot]

Well some of the flowthru's who don't want to flow will consider it "force", but they made that bed and now they have to sleep in it.

 

[Flyby1206]

Would like to hear if most people think this can be done in a diplomatic way as not to make the senior guys feel welcome anymore. Thoughts?

Its a very very touchy issue here at AE. The program they are starting helps senior CAs (18+yrs seniority) find jobs at other airlines of their choice (SWA, FedEx, UPS) if they would like. Our top CAs here are generally age 45+, making $100k, live in base, 15+ days off/mo. Many of them dont want to switch airlines because they have a great QOL here and not enough time to re-coup their losses if they went somewhere else. They cant afford to take a 70k paycut to commute across the country to fly crap schedules for a different airline while they have a wife, kids in college, house payments, etc.

In the case of AE the only way I think any Senior CAs will move to another job is flowthrough to AA. Many have already said they wont flowthrough because they cant take the paycut to first year probationary pay at AA ($35/hr). If mgmt really wants to clear out the top end of the list, they will offer some sort of compensation to make up for the paycut.

The problem is that AMR would have to spend a nickel to save a dollar. That doesnt happen in this company. The next 1-3years will be very interesting!

 

[~~~^~~~]

What exactly does that mean?

Airline management and ALPA negotiate these 13 to 18 year pay ranges, then management gets twisted if someone pays their dues for many years to achieve what was promised.

If you hold out a carrot, give the pilot the carrot.

It must just be killing American that they can not whipsaw to the extent DCI, particularly ASA / SkyWest does. After all the shell game makes it a lot easier to get rid of the "expensive" experienced pilots who built and maintain the airline's operation.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Its a very very touchy issue .... Many have already said they wont flowthrough because they cant take the paycut to first year probationary pay at AA ($35/hr). If mgmt really wants to clear out the top end of the list, they will offer some sort of compensation to make up for the paycut.

The problem is that AMR would have to spend a nickel to save a dollar. That doesnt happen in this company. The next 1-3years will be very interesting!

Excellent point.

Going further, why should a pilot with more than ten years service to the Company have to start at "probationary pay." Wasn't the ten years at the express carrier probation enough?

 

[FlyComAirJets]

First off, I thought the Flow Thru ended this year so I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Second, the number that actually did flow was less that 200, not much of a benefit to the other several thousand AE pilots. And third, even if you did have the seniority and desire to go over to American -- if you were over age 50 -- you couldn't flow because American doesn't hire career FO's and presume you will not be able to upgrade before retiring.

What a deal.

 

[Flyby1206]

All good points. Unfortunately, I anticipate the scope clause to end after this contract negotiations whether it is because pensions are put in danger or through arbitrAAtion to get what mgmt wants. When this happens look for every regional carrier with a 70+ seat a/c bidding for flying for AMR.

The flowthrough technically ends May 2008. It never worked the way it was intended. If you told an AA pilot 7years ago that he would be flying an RJ for AE he would have laughed. Starting AE flowthroughs off at 2nd yr pay has been rumored, but I don't know if this will ever come to pass.

The tough thing is that there are hundreds of 6-8yr FOs at AE now. When they upgrade I find it hard to believe they will get their 1000 PIC turbine then leave, so unless AMR fixes this problem ASAP this will continue forever.

 

[~~~^~~~]

American Eagle to shed senior pilots

By Trebor Banstetter
MCT
Published on: 08/09/07
FORT WORTH, Texas — Are you a young pilot starting your career? American Eagle would love to give you a job. Are you an older Eagle pilot near the top of the pay scale? The airline would love it if someone else gave you a job.

Eagle, regional partner of Fort Worth-based American Airlines, recently launched an unusual program that helps senior pilots find jobs at other carriers. At the same time, the airline is planning to hire hundreds of new, younger pilots this year.
The move to clear the decks of older pilots while bringing in new fliers demonstrates the pressure that's been on Eagle's business model, which relies on having a younger, less experienced, lower-paid work force.
"The average longevity of Eagle pilots is a lot higher than most of our competitors, because we've been keeping all of our senior pilots," said Dave Ryter, a pilot and spokesman for the Eagle chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association. "After 9-11, people just stopped moving up."
In the past, Eagle pilots would work for a few years and then advance to American, to be replaced by younger pilots at lower wages. Few stayed at the regional carrier long enough to reach the higher pay levels.
But after 9-11, American laid off thousands of pilots, and the flow of Eagle pilots to the main line stopped. Even though American is bringing some back, nearly 2,000 pilots remain on furlough.
That means it could be years before a substantial number of Eagle pilots advance to American.
"We've got pilots who have been around for 20 years," said Andrea Huguely, Eagle spokeswoman. The average Eagle pilot has about 10 years of seniority, she said.
Starting pay at Eagle is $24 an hour, according to the union. The pay scale tops out at $98 an hour. Pilots are guaranteed a minimum 72 hours per month.
Between 2000 and 2006, the carrier's pilot costs increased by 86 percent, according to the Transportation Department. Pilot costs rose much faster than overall expenses, which climbed 46 percent during that time. Total pilot costs in 2006 were $144 million.
Although Eagle pilots can't advance to American right now, there are plenty of opportunities elsewhere. Airlines including Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines have been hiring, and growing discount carriers like Southwest Airlines and JetBlue Airways continue to bring in new pilots. Cargo airlines like UPS and FedEx are also hiring. During the first half of the year, the major airlines hired more than 1,400 pilots, according to consulting firm Air Inc., and some airlines are reporting a shortage of pilots.
"There are a lot of opportunities out there, and we want to help people who are interested in advancing their careers," Huguely said.
The voluntary "pilot placement program," which began in June, offers to help pilots with the extensive paperwork required to apply for jobs at other carriers. The program also works with pilots to identify potential new employers, provides letters of recommendation and allows time off for job interviews.
Airline officials began offering the service to the pilots who had been there the longest, although they say it will eventually be available to every pilot.
"A lot of our pilots came to Eagle because they eventually want to fly for a (major) carrier," Huguely said. "This will help them accomplish that goal."
At the same time, Eagle plans to hire as many as 700 new pilots this year, and has been holding job fairs to recruit pilots nationwide. Currently, the airline has about 3,200 pilots.
Ryter said the union is cautiously optimistic about the program, because it could provide some career opportunities for Eagle pilots. But he warned that the airline must handle it diplomatically, and provide enough resources to make a difference.
"Otherwise it's just going to look like they're trying to get us to leave," he said. "And that's not a good message right now."


PILOT COSTS
American Eagle spends more on pilots than other regional airlines. Below is a list of airlines and the 2006 pilot costs for each.
• American Eagle, $144 million
• ExpressJet, $134 million
• SkyWest, $124 million
• Comair, $91 million
• Atlantic Southeast Airlines, $90 million
• Mesa Airlines, $65 million
• Pinnacle Airlines, $48 million
• Mesaba Airlines, $34 million
Source: Transportation Department

- there's a little synopsis.

 

[Bruno82]

Well some of the flowthru's who don't want to flow will consider it "force", but they made that bed and now they have to sleep in it.

True statement.

 

[Goose Egg]

This looks like an excellent time to keep my mouth shut about this (interview at Eagle next week.)

-Goose

 

[eaglefly]

I'm one of the "bullseye" captains.

First of all the voluntary program to help senior Eagle captains find work elsewhere will for the most part be a non-issue (faliure). Less than 10% will take advantage of this program and of those 10%, maybe one-quarter of those pilots in their early-mid forties or older will actually find a berth at a major. NOBODY wants to waste their time at a company like NWA or UAL who have crap schedules, no pension and ethically bankrupt managers. Probation anyone ?

Pass.

Forget about this as a way to clear out truly senior captains.................won't happen.

As for the flowthru to AA, it does expire next May and there are about 400 captains with AA seniority numbers. Those captains are virtually certain have employment rights at AA even after the agreement expires according to my knowledgeable sources, but perhaps half don't want to do even that considering the pay issue. The question of whether they will be REQUIRED to flow will be decided in arbitration and is not yet known by ANYONE.

Even if all those 400 pilots were required to flow, Eagle would still be left with 6-700 pilots in the 13-20 year range, most of whom have no plans to leave, so Eagle's pilot cost problem is for all intents and purposes going nowhere.

Eagle was intended to be a career airline. AMR blew that trumpet for years. Now for many it is and they don't like it. So sorry. Most likely, when they get very little response from the pilots they REALLY want to leave, they'll terminate the program as it doesn't do them any good to get rid of the cheap 2-5 year pilots they've just spent $20 grand to train.

At that point, they'll have to find another way to entice senior pilots to leave.......................to be successful, it won't be cheap.

Signed,

Captain "Eric"

 

[V-1]

They can file bankruptcy...seems to be working pretty well for driving away experienced crewmembers at Comair.

 

[BIGGOAT]

Fins,

The ASA and Skywest pilots do not know the meaning of whipsaw when compared to Eagle. Just ask anyone who was there when Wings West, Simmons, etc were merged. It happened during Crandall's tenure and defines whipsaw.

Goat

 

[eaglefly]

They can file bankruptcy...seems to be working pretty well for driving away experienced crewmembers at Comair.

They won't go anywhere near BK over this issue.

The reason is it's not enough of a drag on AMR. BK would mean management gives up control and the books are opened to outsiders. That's why AMR resisted BK when they could have benefitted with more desireable rules when everyone else was playing that card.

No BK unless financial disaster, i.e. aviation terrorism.

This is just another attempt to get their desires as cheap as possible in the hope it has some benefit. In this instance it won't.

They'll clean out a handful of senior pilots and then it will be deemed the faliure it is doomed to. Nice idea in theory, but impractical in reality.

10K/month, dollar for dollar 8% 401(k) match, 16 days off and I drive 1/2 hour to work.

Thanks for the offer of Newark or Detroit crashpads for 30K/year and pensionless abuse, but again............I (and virtually every other geezer) will pass.

On to a more important subject......................

 

[Gr82Aviate]

They won't go anywhere near BK over this issue.

The reason is it's not enough of a drag on AMR. BK would mean management gives up control and the books are opened to outsiders. That's why AMR resisted BK when they could have benefitted with more desireable rules when everyone else was playing that card.

No BK unless financial disaster, i.e. aviation terrorism.

This is just another attempt to get their desires as cheap as possible in the hope it has some benefit. In this instance it won't.

They'll clean out a handful of senior pilots and then it will be deemed the faliure it is doomed to. Nice idea in theory, but impractical in reality.

10K/month, dollar for dollar 8% 401(k) match, 16 days off and I drive 1/2 hour to work.

Thanks for the offer of Newark or Detroit crashpads for 30K/year and pensionless abuse, but again............I (and virtually every other geezer) will pass.

On to a more important subject......................

A little off the topic, but any chance any of you "geezers" know if H.M. still works for AE? He started out when it was still Wings West about 20+ years ago?...

 

[DrewBlows]

Eaglefly, would you consider leaving for a buyout? How much would it take? $3,000 per year of service, say everyone over 10 years is eligible? Just throwing out numbers.

 

[eaglefly]

Eaglefly, would you consider leaving for a buyout? How much would it take? $3,000 per year of service, say everyone over 10 years is eligible? Just throwing out numbers.

$60,000 (42,000 or less after taxes)?

That's six months pay (actually less).

What would I do for the next 15-20 years ?

I broke my ass here for 2 decades to be pushed aside for peanuts so someone else can upgrade faster to accelerate THEIR career ?

That's what 20 years of work has gotten me ?

If you reread what many of us make, you'd see that would be ludicrous. We make that because Mangemant promised us a CAREER when we signed that POS 16 year contract that everybody laughs at. Now, many of us have that promised career and expect nothing more or less than what we were promised.

Why is Eagle different from UAL or Fed Ex ? Should we advocate elimination of their senior pilots because it's in managments best financial interest OR because junior pilots may upgrade quicker ?

Of course not.

We need MORE career regionals (like everybody clamored for over the last 5-10 years), not less.

WHAT it would take is unfortunately a moot point, because this company would NEVER agree to anything close to what WOULD entice very senior pilots into early retirement.

It would have to BE something like early retirement, not a fleabag lowball fewbucks buyout or an overinflated offer for assistance to go somewhere else.

That's why everyone, pilots, ALPA and mangement alike should accept the futility of this "offer".

Can't blame them for trying, but really, it's dead on arrival.

 

[Flyer1015]

eaglefly, how long have you been with Eagle?

Did you start with Executive, Simmons, Command, ... or ?

 

[www.]

Fins,

The ASA and Skywest pilots do not know the meaning of whipsaw when compared to Eagle. Just ask anyone who was there when Wings West, Simmons, etc were merged. It happened during Crandall's tenure and defines whipsaw.

Goat

Ahh, those were the good days. Bob started a great deal of things. FF programs and whipsaw.

 

[Diesel]

What does an 18 year captain make at eagle? If they spent 18 years there they aren't leaving something has kept them there for that long.

I can't imagine what though.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

ooops

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Diesel,

Didn't you read his post? $120,000 a year, great schedules and lots of time off with 100% match 401k up to 8%. Unless you are still in your 30's there are only a few places you can go and catch up to that, plus you QOL (have to commute, fly back side of the clock, bottom of the seniority list) will suck even if you can get on with UPS or FEX. I understood him just fine.

 

[Flyby1206]

To eaglefly or any other 18yr+ CAs, how much (if any amount at all) would it take to make flowthrough a feasible choice? $60k to go to AA?

 

[Wankel7]

I am with the Eagle pilots...why would you want to leave with QOL like that? And after it took that many years to arrive at that point?

If Eagle management really wants to realize their goals of shedding the senior workforce. It seems like they would have to pay a large buyout to the pilots and get then to AA at nearly their equal pay rates...LOL...right

Spend that long earning QOL like that? I wouldn't budge either!

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

I echo the sentiment. I've been at Eagle for about 16 years and spent the first seven as an FO, which basically precluded me from getting a job at a major due to not having the requisite 1000 hours turbine PIC that most majors required. I finally upgraded in '98 and then took almost two years to get the 1000 PIC, so I wasn't really a competitive candidate until about mid 2000 (at least according to the HR types at the majors who decided that 1000 PIC turbine is the magic number that makes one a viable candidate for a job at their airline, irrespective of the fact that I and many others had 5000 hours of Part 121 SIC, but I digress). By that time I was becoming choosy about just who I'd work for due to the fact that my wife and I started to carve out a nice comfortable life for ourselves and I was starting to make a decent living and have a good QOL with no commute in SoCal. Basically, UAL and AAL were the only airlines I was willing to leave Eagle for by that time (although I probably should have jumped at the chance to be one of the first hired at JetBlue, but hindsight is always 20/20, I suppose).

9/11 happened and that was that. I hunkered down at Eagle, transitioned over to the Embraer jet, became a check airman a couple of years ago and am now making more than 100K/year and still have a good QOL. My wife's income as a Neo-Natal Intensive Care nurse almost matches mine so we do just fine financially.

I'm comfortable and at this point in my life it would be suicidal to my income, QOL and marriage to take a new hire position at UAL, etc. It would simply not be a good idea for me.

Honestly, the only airline I would consider going to would be AA, and it seems I may end up there anyway due to the fact I am a flowthrough in my early forties. If not, C' est la vie. I have other interests in my life that occupy a lot more of my off time than thinking about flying and wondering if I'll ever get that job with a major. Honestly, my life is a lot more tranquil now than it was ten years ago when I spent every waking minute trying to figure out how to get a job with a major. It was exhausting.

 

[druglord]

ah there's where u went wrong AA...
-current requirements are... parent/acquaintance in upper management
-internship
-prefer 1500 TT

 

[Diesel]

100k a year is doing well?

Thats Year 5 capt pay at a fractional.

I can understand the qol issue. That is a big issue for me but trying to say that 100k is good pay for 18 years there....

 

[Flybet3]

100k a year is doing well?

Thats Year 5 capt pay at a fractional.

I can understand the qol issue. That is a big issue for me but trying to say that 100k is good pay for 18 years there....

With all do respect man, if you can't make it with 100k a year, (8333.33 a month)then you need to tell your wife that she doesnt need that SUV for the only 1 kid you have, and she needs to stop pissing your money away on BS like AVON, Mary Kay and sh**. And you need to get out of that 6 bedroom house when it's only 3 of you. You dont need 4 cars either chump. Now if you live in the North East or West Coast then MOVE!!! Yeah, 150K is better than 100K, 200k is waaaaaay better than 100K but my god man! If you're strugling with 100k I cant wait to see you when you get furloughed and have to try to make it with home depot salary. Greedy d*****

 

[Flooder305]

Just because you preface a statement with "with all do respect" doesn't absolve you of the responsibility of the words you just said. Who are you to dictate to this guy and call names about what slice of America he can or should have? Your own jealousy and envy clouds your mind and you need to check yourself right here. Personally if you said that to my face you'd be swallowing chiclets....

Post reported.