ASA Mgmt cannot staff properly; wants new hire pay raises

[GearUpLightsIn]

"previous statements by management like, “zero-net-gain contract,” and “we need to be the second lowest paid pilots or we’ll shrink-and-die,” do not help attract quality pilots either. "

Okay, I agree with the MEC's shootdown of this request as a good move toward completing the contract. But honestly, there are enough self-evident problems with ASA without having to misquote management. "Zero net gain" is one I do remember seeing come from them years ago at the beginning of this process, but "we'll shrink and die"? No. This quote comes from an official union email, not some web board. It should be written in a professional and honest manner. I have always assumed the union considered themselves to be on the moral high ground, but this along with several of their recent mailers have done nothing in my estimation to advance their cause. I don't know who writes these updates but please, calm down take a breath and state only facts. It's not necessary to make anything up to make your point.

If this helps you any, I sat in RGT last year and had Scott Hall say exactly that. We either get our 700 pilot costs in line or we will shrink and die. He said it several times. Just because you didn't hear doesn't mean the union is making it up either.

 

[Redan]

"previous statements by management like, “zero-net-gain contract,” and “we need to be the second lowest paid pilots or we’ll shrink-and-die,” do not help attract quality pilots either. "

Okay, I agree with the MEC's shootdown of this request as a good move toward completing the contract. But honestly, there are enough self-evident problems with ASA without having to misquote management. "Zero net gain" is one I do remember seeing come from them years ago at the beginning of this process, but "we'll shrink and die"? No. This quote comes from an official union email, not some web board. It should be written in a professional and honest manner. I have always assumed the union considered themselves to be on the moral high ground, but this along with several of their recent mailers have done nothing in my estimation to advance their cause. I don't know who writes these updates but please, calm down take a breath and state only facts. It's not necessary to make anything up to make your point.

Whether these are exact quotes or not, our management has made it infinitely clear in a multitude of ways that this is exactly how they feel.

 

[ASApuppy]

Don't you all remember the memo from CT that outlined the 4 options we had as we negotiated the contract. It came out a year or so ago. The last option was something about if we got what we wanted we would be shrunk.

I choose this option.

 

[shamrock]

Don't you all remember the memo from CT that outlined the 4 options we had as we negotiated the contract. It came out a year or so ago. The last option was something about if we got what we wanted we would be shrunk.

I choose this option.

Check post #45 on this thread, Fins dug it up for everyone.

 

[av8tor4239]

fly the contract and poh, go to work do your job and only your job go home and collect your check.. let alpa do what you pay them to do.. they are good at it and they will succeed!

 

[Papa Woody]

It goes like this:

The "second lowest, no net gain" concept was perfect for the company when there was a surplus of qualified pilots.....the years after 9/11.

Now the pendulum has swung the other way....there is a shortage of pilots, and something like "highest pay with signing bonus and no more dewsh-bag managers" is what's needed from the G.O.

But they don't get it.

 

[GeekMaster]

It's been a few days since I've posted on our contract negotiations, but I finally had a chance to catch up with a CNC member. Of course they are under a gag order and didn't tell me anything they aren't saying publicly, but at least I have a better clue as to where things are/may be. Here are some thoughts on the subject.

ALPA HAD NO CHOICE but to deny a side letter request to grant relief on f/o pay. I feel very bad for them, but here's the deal on that. ASA hid their poor hand on that issue as long as they possibly could. After negotiations broke down with no agreement Friday night, they had no choice but to ask for status quo relief. Personally, I "suspect" they might have even requested it during the final hours Friday night after both sides had exhausted the "authority to give" on proposals.

We have ALL agreed (ALPAites and silent majority alike) that ASA management was not likely to give any more than absolutely necassary to avoid release and that barring release, they had NO MOTIVATION to settle a contract. WE WERE ALL WRONG!!! They had this dirty little secret about not being able to recruit and hire. It finally came to a point of desparation that they've now gone public with it. So what exactly does it all mean?

It means that for the first time we have acknowledgement that the pilot market is a player in this game as well. Since many of the other regionals are offering nice cash signing bonuses for completing training and better first year rates, who in their right mind would have ASA as their first choice? So, ASA wants relief to compete for those pilots. They still don't give a crap about the guys on the upper end of the seniority scale and would love to see them all go to better jobs.

What happens now depends on the NMB. I'm DEFINITELY not looking for a release right away. It was my understanding that last weeks sessions involved significant "give" from BOTH sides; not just ASA. I would really like to see a couple more sessions right away. I think with both sides looking to meet in the middle, they might have a chance to get it done outside of a release.

Here's a point of view to consider. I think it's very important to settle "outside" of a cooling off period if possible. That would represent that the company came to terms "willingly" and not just to avoid a strike and would be a lot less likely to begin shrinking ASA. Here's the bad news though; WHATEVER THEY GIVE US OUTSIDE OF A RELEASE WILL ALSO BE GIVEN TO SKYWEST TO KEEP ALPA OFF THE PROPERTY. Expect that as a new standard to compete in the new pilot market.

I have not changed my view that if we fail to remain competitive with SKW airlines we will shrink. THAT'S STILL TRUE. I just think that with the new "pilot market" player on board, BOTH airlines will benefit. Again, I think it's very important to settle "outside" of a release so that SKW inc. loses some it's ability to whipsaw by claiming they were forced into the contract terms.

 

[Tomct]

If the company REALLY wanted to get things done...they would give us what we want in the contract and get this over with!! As far as new hires getting bonus pay etc......EAT SH!T!!! BL, CT and SH can all KISS MY AZZ! GIVE US OUR CONTRACT NOW!!!!:angryfire

 

[wms]

Contracts are settled at the eleventh hour, so the thought of settling this without a release is not likely, no matter what the primary issue is.

The lack of pilots will probably drive the remainder of the contract. If the company starts offering raises to pilots who don't even work here yet, they can afford to give us one with COLA. And if they can offer thousands of dollars in hiring bonuses to pilots who don't work here yet they can afford 100% retro to those of us who are already here and have been loyal productive employees.

The union has a habit of just saying no without a counter-offer. The response should've been first year pay can go up, as long as all pay meets our original proposal.

 

[www.]

The union has a habit of just saying no without a counter-offer. The response should've been first year pay can go up, as long as all pay meets our original proposal.

The Company was not asking for pay raises they were asking to give incentives to get people in the door. DR has been asking for this for sometime. They want to give a hiring bonus. The pilot group should not be responsible for the hiring of pilots at ASA. They are paid to fly airplanes. Plain and simple. ALPA represents the pilots at the airline, not the ones trying to come here.

 

[wms]

The company doesn't need permission to give bonuses, but they know if they do they'll be acknowledging they have the money for retro. So the alternative would be to increase first year pay, which according to the memo is what the company wanted to do. The fact is we're in negotiations, and everything asked for is subject to something in return.

 

[www.]

The company doesn't need permission to give bonuses, but they know if they do they'll be acknowledging they have the money for retro.

Bonus, is considered pay so they can not give a bonus because it would violate status quo. No changes in pay or work rules during status quo.

They only way around this would either the company and ALPA agree to it OR the company pays the said pilot prior to becoming and ASA pilot.

As for the "memo"...ASA flight operations management today sought relief in the Status Quo of our current contract to give raises to new hire pilots.

If the company wanted to increase the rate agreed to, 1st year pay, by the parties they could being they are already under Section 6 negotiations. This has to do with getting pilots in the door, not the 1st year pay.

 

[av8er2]

Scott Hall saying they were caught up, BS! That shows they don't know what they are doing.

 

[Medeco]

Geek,

What makes you think its then end of ASA if we out price Skywest?

How about this, we raise the bar, then Skywest pilots have one more incentive to go ALPA on property now that a good portion of them have seen what SAPA really is?

Just one more possible outcome.

Bottomline, if the CNC comes through with a nice gain, everyone including the scared minority will benefit.

I just how they will step up and say I was wrong. Because, if the reverse happens, then I will.

Medeco

 

[GeekMaster]

SH saying they were caught up was a pure Bull hockey ploy to silently have pilots pick up open time for July with no premium pay. Nothing was announced but he doesn't have to. He only has to announce that premium time "IS" available. He was counting on guys picking it up out of habit and it's worked. I spoke with a capt this week who got hit. He picked up a trip and had it assigned to him before realizing it was straight time.

I agree with www. that it's not our position to hire pilots but I think www. would agree that if they are desparate enough to seek "status quo" relief, that becomes significant negotiating capital for us.

Since none of us officially know just how close they got or how much each side "gave", everybody's just guessing at this point. If it's really that close, I fully suspect they'll come to terms pretty fast on pay issues. That leaves Retro as the primary obstacle.

So here goes WMS this question is for you. YOU OBVIOUSLY FLY THE 50 OR THE ATR so answer this. How much do you suppose the 70 seat drivers and the training department guys are going to get under your 100% retro deal? Calculate it based on current rates because that's about where our table position is on the 70. Last time I checked, 100% of 0 raise is ........dang my calculator's broke. Remember, the training department guys are paid according to the highest equipment they can hold. Based on the low man on the totem poll for the 70, that pretty much covers the entire department. ......OH YEAH, the CNC has already pretty much come to terms on what will be a cut on their overrides.

Is that fair to them? Still supporting that 100% retro WMS?