Update on HR 800 Concerning Union Certification

[Andy Neill]

I previously reported that there was a bill making its way through Congress (H.R. 800) that would establish union certification at a company if the majority of the affected workers simply mailed in a postcard which had previously been one step in requesting a vote. See post #119 in the following thread.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1254647#post1254647

Here is an update. H.R. 800 passed the house with something like a 230-190 vote. Before leaving, it considered three amendments:

1 - That the union organizers would return an employee's card within five days of written request to do so.

2 - That a union could be decertified by the same process - that is, if a majority of a represented worker group sent in post cards to decertify, it would be decertified.

3 - That unions would be subject to the same penalties if found guilty of coercing their members as the employers would be if found that they had coerced employees.

All three of these amendments were voted down 3-8 in committee.

The bill has moved on to the Senate where it has been read into the record.

 

[Soverytired]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

 

[DoinTime]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

Including you.

 

[Nindiri]

This thing is a disaster looking for a place to happen. If it passes, every union certification for the rest of time will be tied up in court with charges of vote fraud and corruption. It is simply too open to manipulation by management lawyers who will use it to beat unions over the head.

 

[TurboAWD]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

Are you enjoying your new, downward adjusted career expectations?

Turbo

 

[IronCityBlue]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

Not so sure about that.

W. doesn't like unions and while this may make it easier to initially certify one, it makes it far easier to decertify one as well. I bet there's a chance you could get 50% + 1 pilots at AAA to vent their frustrations by mailing in a postcard right about now.

This thing will be a tsunami of unintended consequences.

 

[Andy Neill]

Not so sure about that.

W. doesn't like unions and while this may make it easier to initially certify one, it makes it far easier to decertify one as well. I bet there's a chance you could get 50% + 1 pilots at AAA to vent their frustrations by mailing in a postcard right about now.

This thing will be a tsunami of unintended consequences.

There is nothing in HR 800 that makes it any easier to decertify a union. That was one of the three amendments voted down.

 

[IronCityBlue]

There is nothing in HR 800 that makes it any easier to decertify a union. That was one of the three amendments voted down.

OK I got it now I think.

In any case, I never saw the point of a vote to see if there will be a vote, followed by the actual vote that the initial vote set the stage for. One voting campaign should be all that's necessary. I don't really see that as a pro or anti labor thing in and of itself.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And it only applies to NLRB unions, aka trade unions. Unions under the RLA (transportation unions) will not be affected.

 

[Soverytired]

Are you enjoying your new, downward adjusted career expectations?

Turbo

Hmm. I'm not anti-union.

I just like secret ballots when I vote. As opposed to 3 or 4 organizers coming to my door step and pressuring me to sign a card. Repeatedly. And making sure that I know that they're going to let everyone I work with know if I signed it or not.

I really don't see why anyone could be against that.

 

[B727FA]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

Typical Union Pilot response: "Organized Labor sucks, except when it has to do with me."

 

[JoeMerchant]

Typical Union Pilot response: "Organized Labor sucks, except when it has to do with me."

1. We're not really a union.... if we were, we wouldn't be taking each other's work like we do, and we would take better care of each other.

2. What's wrong with the current system of a secret ballot to determine whether or not a union is wanted. The only reason to change the current system is so that people can be coerced into voting yes..... it is this "mob rule" that gives unions a black eye...

 

[John Pennekamp]

Alpa is most definitely not a union in the traditional sense. It is a patchwork of independent MECs. The original founders made it that way intentionally, because they found the union tactics of the day dispalatable. This is in fact why it's acall the Air Line Pilots ASSOCIATION (not union).

Unfortunately, this system of independent MECs bidding against each other is what makes it completely ineffective. When the normal union goes on strike, ALL the plants shut down. We can't do that because we have no national unity. Same goes for leaving one company for another. Your union card guarantees you pay on a single pay scale. Not for us.

 

[Andy Neill]

Yesterday, besides dealing with cloture on the Immigration Act, the Senate also considered cloture on H.R.800 discussed in this thread. Voting in favor were one Independent and 50 Democratic senators; voting against were all 49 Republicans (1 Democratic senator from SD did not vote). Since 60 votes for cloture were required, the debate goes on and the measure was not considered further.

 

[PCL_128]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

Socialist garbage? You work for one of the most evil men in corporate America, live under some of the worst working conditions in this industry, and you still think that less restrictive union organizing is a bad thing? What will it take for some pilots to wake up? G.W. doesn't give a $*&% about you, me, or anyone else who doesn't have a golden parachute and an expense account. I voted for the man twice. I regret my decision.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

I think you need to stop regurgitating Newt's talking points and actually research the issue. This legislation would be the best thing to happen to working people in this country in decades.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Socialist garbage? You work for one of the most evil men in corporate America, live under some of the worst working conditions in this industry, and you still think that less restrictive union organizing is a bad thing? What will it take for some pilots to wake up? G.W. doesn't give a $*&% about you, me, or anyone else who doesn't have a golden parachute and an expense account. I voted for the man twice. I regret my decision.



I think you need to stop regurgitating Newt's talking points and actually research the issue. This legislation would be the best thing to happen to working people in this country in decades.

PCL_128,

You are turning into quite the left-winger. What is wrong with making a union vote a "secret ballot"? I am opposed to this legislation. The current system is best. Why are you union cheerleaders so opposed to a secret ballot?

 

[PCL_128]

You are turning into quite the left-winger.

Hardly. I just want a fair shake for the working man.

What is wrong with making a union vote a "secret ballot"?

Joe, if someone doesn't want to send in a card, then don't send in a card. Pretty simple. It's no different than the current authorization card system. As it stands right now, a campaign starts with "authorization cards" being sent in to the union. The union then tells the company that a majority of the members have signed cards, and asks the company to voluntarily certify on that basis. The company can refuse (and usually does) and demand that the members take the cards to the NLRB and request a vote.

Under the EFCA, the company can no longer refuse to certify the union once a majority of the cards have been recieved and verified as accurate to the NLRB by a third-party neutral. Nothing changes except the elimination of the redundant second step. The current authorization card system that begins the process isn't a secret ballot, but no one's been complaining about that. The secret ballot mantra is just a talking point by the anti-labor lobby.

The current system is best.

I did lots of organizing work for ALPA, and I can assure you that the current system is ripe for abuse by management. The prolonged system creates too many opportunities for the company to coerce and threaten workers. The system needs to be streamlined.

Why are you union cheerleaders so opposed to a secret ballot?

As I said, the current authorization cards aren't really "secret" either. The union receives them already. The only thing that's secret is the redundant vote that's entirely unnecessary.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hardly. I just want a fair shake for the working man.

Joe, if someone doesn't want to send in a card, then don't send in a card. Pretty simple. It's no different than the current authorization card system. As it stands right now, a campaign starts with "authorization cards" being sent in to the union. The union then tells the company that a majority of the members have signed cards, and asks the company to voluntarily certify on that basis. The company can refuse (and usually does) and demand that the members take the cards to the NLRB and request a vote.

Under the EFCA, the company can no longer refuse to certify the union once a majority of the cards have been recieved and verified as accurate to the NLRB by a third-party neutral. Nothing changes except the elimination of the redundant second step. The current authorization card system that begins the process isn't a secret ballot, but no one's been complaining about that. The secret ballot mantra is just a talking point by the anti-labor lobby.

I did lots of organizing work for ALPA, and I can assure you that the current system is ripe for abuse by management. The prolonged system creates too many opportunities for the company to coerce and threaten workers. The system needs to be streamlined.

As I said, the current authorization cards aren't really "secret" either. The union receives them already. The only thing that's secret is the redundant vote that's entirely unnecessary.

PCL,

I can tell you that union die-hards will stop at nothing to push an agenda. I know that first hand. Many people send in cards because of the pressure to do so. In other words, they want to "fit in". Then they vote NO when the actual secret ballot comes out. Why is it that ALPA is waiting for more cards than is necessary with the SKYW vote? The fact is, many people who send in the cards, don't really want a union. What is so wrong with a secret ballot?

By the way, "working man" is a left-winger term. It implies that only us "blue collar" workers are "working men". You are sounding like a Hillary supporter.....

 

[PCL_128]

Why is it that ALPA is waiting for more cards than is necessary with the SKYW vote?

Having a "strong majority" is a great indicator that the Association was successful in its efforts to reach the pilot group with the message. If only a slight majority of cards have been received, it's a good indicator that most pilots haven't been reached yet with the union's message. We never wanted to hold a vote before we felt that the pilot group had received enough information to make an informed decision.

The fact is, many people who send in the cards, don't really want a union. What is so wrong with a secret ballot?

There's simply no reason for it, Joe. If you were pushing for making the current authorization cards also secret, then it might make sense, but without that you just sound inconsistent. With the authorization cards not being binding right now, the anti-labor lobby doesn't seem to mind that they're not "secret." Now that they might become binding, suddenly it's a gross violation of privacy. Only when corporate America's choke-hold on labor is in jeopardy do Newt and GW suddenly find compassion for the working man's privacy with authorization cards. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Having a "strong majority" is a great indicator that the Association was successful in its efforts to reach the pilot group with the message. If only a slight majority of cards have been received, it's a good indicator that most pilots haven't been reached yet with the union's message. We never wanted to hold a vote before we felt that the pilot group had received enough information to make an informed decision.



There's simply no reason for it, Joe. If you were pushing for making the current authorization cards also secret, then it might make sense, but without that you just sound inconsistent. With the authorization cards not being binding right now, the anti-labor lobby doesn't seem to mind that they're not "secret." Now that they might become binding, suddenly it's a gross violation of privacy. Only when corporate America's choke-hold on labor is in jeopardy do Newt and GW suddenly find compassion for the working man's privacy with authorization cards. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Fine, then make it all secret... any problem with that? Face it, the unionistas want to be able to exert pressure on people, and that is wrong.......

The cards get sent in because of pressure and you know it..... Peer pressure is a strong force....

 

[PCL_128]

Fine, then make it all secret... any problem with that? Face it, the unionistas want to be able to exert pressure on people, and that is wrong.......

That's not what the "unionistas" as you call us want to be able to do. We just want an efficient and fair system. The problem with any official secret ballot is that it will be known to management. The authorization cards or petition allowed by the EFCA would allow employees to keep an organizing effort relatively quiet so that management can't interfere. Theoretically, a small employee group could get together one day and fill out a petition with a majority of the members and present it to the NLRB as-is, with no further action required. That keeps management from using scare-tactics to fight labor. Employees should be free to make the decision to organize without any interference from management.

The cards get sent in because of pressure and you know it..... Peer pressure is a strong force....

I don't "know it." No campaign that I've been involved with contained any sort of pressure from the OC members or from the union. Any such activity is blatantly illegal, and would remain illegal under the EFCA.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's not what the "unionistas" as you call us want to be able to do. We just want an efficient and fair system. The problem with any official secret ballot is that it will be known to management. The authorization cards or petition allowed by the EFCA would allow employees to keep an organizing effort relatively quiet so that management can't interfere. Theoretically, a small employee group could get together one day and fill out a petition with a majority of the members and present it to the NLRB as-is, with no further action required. That keeps management from using scare-tactics to fight labor. Employees should be free to make the decision to organize without any interference from management.



I don't "know it." No campaign that I've been involved with contained any sort of pressure from the OC members or from the union. Any such activity is blatantly illegal, and would remain illegal under the EFCA.

You are either naive or a liar... peer pessure is strong when dealing with union issues. Many people who agree with me don't want their names made public because of the pressure.

A secret ballot allows everyone to vote without pressure from either side... what is wrong with that?

 

[PCL_128]

You are either naive or a liar...

Call me what you will. The thought that JoeMerchant doesn't think highly of me isn't exactly big news.

A secret ballot allows everyone to vote without pressure from either side... what is wrong with that?

It's simply not true. As soon as the secret ballot is announced, management ratchets up the anti-union scare-tactics and threats. They hire fancy law firms like Ford & Harrison to help them skirt the edges of the law. I recommend picking up a copy of "Confessions of a Union Buster." The less time that management has to threaten workers, the better. Secret ballots drag things out for too long, and they give management too much of an opportunity to put the heat on labor, especially organizers. The current system doesn't work. It's too heavily slanted in favor of management.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It's simply not true. As soon as the secret ballot is announced, management ratchets up the anti-union scare-tactics and threats. They hire fancy law firms like Ford & Harrison to help them skirt the edges of the law. I recommend picking up a copy of "Confessions of a Union Buster." The less time that management has to threaten workers, the better. Secret ballots drag things out for too long, and they give management too much of an opportunity to put the heat on labor, especially organizers. The current system doesn't work. It's too heavily slanted in favor of management.

And the other side doesn't do the same? I have been involved in ALPA for almost 10 years now, and if given the choice, I would vote them off the property.....

A secret ballot allows everyone to vote their conscience..... either way..... the only one who would be opposed to that is one who wants to pressure someone into voting one way or the other....

With a secret ballot, BOTH sides can spew their propaganda to their hearts content, and the individual can vote in secret....

Do you honestly believe that "propaganda" only comes from the management side? Both sides dish out their fair share of the BS......

 

[PCL_128]

I have been involved in ALPA for almost 10 years now, and if given the choice, I would vote them off the property.....

We know, Joe, we know. We heard you the first 10,358,435 times.

A secret ballot allows everyone to vote their conscience..... either way..... the only one who would be opposed to that is one who wants to pressure someone into voting one way or the other....

Everyone still has the ability to vote their conscience, but they would have the ability to do so without the threats from management manipulating their votes.

With a secret ballot, BOTH sides can spew their propaganda to their hearts content, and the individual can vote in secret....

Do you honestly believe that "propaganda" only comes from the management side? Both sides dish out their fair share of the BS......

This isn't just about "propaganda." This is about downright intimidation and threats. Management routinely fires employees and threatens to fire employees for engaging in union activities in this country. That's why law firms like Ford & Harrison exits: they teach management how to do it without getting in trouble. Labor doesn't have the ability to intimidate someone in the same way, so the deck is stacked in management's favor. You know it, so stop trying to claim that the current system is fair.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We know, Joe, we know. We heard you the first 10,358,435 times.



Everyone still has the ability to vote their conscience, but they would have the ability to do so without the threats from management manipulating their votes.



This isn't just about "propaganda." This is about downright intimidation and threats. Management routinely fires employees and threatens to fire employees for engaging in union activities in this country. That's why law firms like Ford & Harrison exits: they teach management how to do it without getting in trouble. Labor doesn't have the ability to intimidate someone in the same way, so the deck is stacked in management's favor. You know it, so stop trying to claim that the current system is fair.

If it's a secret ballot, then nobody can intimidate the voter.... How can management intimidate a voter if they don't know who is voting for what?

ALPA diehards also intimidate people... we are seeing it here at ASA now... Both sides dish out propaganda, and you want to indimidate people to vote the way you want.... that isn't right.....

A secret ballot allows people to make up their mind without influence from EITHER side... something you obviously are opposed to....

 

[PCL_128]

If it's a secret ballot, then nobody can intimidate the voter.... How can management intimidate a voter if they don't know who is voting for what?

Again, read "Confessions of a Union Buster." Once management is notified that a secret ballot will be taking place, they initiate their anti-union campaign. That campaign typically includes "interviews" with supervisors and known-management-friendly employees to help rat-out their fellow employees that are supportive of the union. Management uses that information to go after the union supporters, many times resulting in discipline up to and including termination. So much for a "secret ballot." The more time management has to engage in these actions, the worse off the employees are. Many times all employees suffer, whether they support the union or not, because management uses tactics to intimidate the entire group. They'll enact new policies that increase employee workload, they'll increase mandatory overtime, etc...

A secret ballot allows people to make up their mind without influence from EITHER side...

Simply not true.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Again, read "Confessions of a Union Buster." Once management is notified that a secret ballot will be taking place, they initiate their anti-union campaign. That campaign typically includes "interviews" with supervisors and known-management-friendly employees to help rat-out their fellow employees that are supportive of the union. Management uses that information to go after the union supporters, many times resulting in discipline up to and including termination. So much for a "secret ballot." The more time management has to engage in these actions, the worse off the employees are. Many times all employees suffer, whether they support the union or not, because management uses tactics to intimidate the entire group. They'll enact new policies that increase employee workload, they'll increase mandatory overtime, etc...

Sorry PCL, not buying your BS. I know a Skywest pilot who openly advocates ALPA despite my advice. He is not being threatened by Skywest management.

I do know personally of pilots being threatened by ALPA goons however.....

 

[PCL_128]

Sorry PCL, not buying your BS. I know a Skywest pilot who openly advocates ALPA despite my advice. He is not being threatened by Skywest management.

You're using the singular anecdotal example of a pilot at Skywest. Hardly conclusive. You can't possibly deny that management engages in these tactics. Ford & Harrison's website practically admits to teaching clients how to do these things legally. Stop being a management shill. They won't think more highly of you just because you back them up.

I do know personally of pilots being threatened by ALPA goons however.....

And what sort of "threats" do they issue, Joe? "I'll call you a name on flightinfo" maybe? "I won't talk to you in the crewroom" possibly? Give me a break. I'm talking about someone losing their job, and you're talking about immature taunting from a few bad apples. People need to be protected from management. The EFCA allows for greater protection.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're using the singular anecdotal example of a pilot at Skywest. Hardly conclusive. You can't possibly deny that management engages in these tactics. Ford & Harrison's website practically admits to teaching clients how to do these things legally. Stop being a management shill. They won't think more highly of you just because you back them up.



And what sort of "threats" do they issue, Joe? "I'll call you a name on flightinfo" maybe? "I won't talk to you in the crewroom" possibly? Give me a break. I'm talking about someone losing their job, and you're talking about immature taunting from a few bad apples. People need to be protected from management. The EFCA allows for greater protection.

So if I vote for a union in a secret ballot, how will management come after me? How will they know that I voted for the union?

Give me a break....

Junior pilots are very afraid of peer pressure from senior pilots. If the senior pilots are pushing the union agenda..... then the junior pilots will go along....

As for your "management shill" cheap shot, you obviously don't know me..... I am an equal opportunity offender.... they don't like me much either because I call out their BS also.... BOTH sides dish out propaganda.... It isn't limited to one side or the other.....