Update on HR 800 Concerning Union Certification

[Andy Neill]

I previously reported that there was a bill making its way through Congress (H.R. 800) that would establish union certification at a company if the majority of the affected workers simply mailed in a postcard which had previously been one step in requesting a vote. See post #119 in the following thread.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1254647#post1254647

Here is an update. H.R. 800 passed the house with something like a 230-190 vote. Before leaving, it considered three amendments:

1 - That the union organizers would return an employee's card within five days of written request to do so.

2 - That a union could be decertified by the same process - that is, if a majority of a represented worker group sent in post cards to decertify, it would be decertified.

3 - That unions would be subject to the same penalties if found guilty of coercing their members as the employers would be if found that they had coerced employees.

All three of these amendments were voted down 3-8 in committee.

The bill has moved on to the Senate where it has been read into the record.

 

[Soverytired]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

 

[DoinTime]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

Including you.

 

[Nindiri]

This thing is a disaster looking for a place to happen. If it passes, every union certification for the rest of time will be tied up in court with charges of vote fraud and corruption. It is simply too open to manipulation by management lawyers who will use it to beat unions over the head.

 

[TurboAWD]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

Are you enjoying your new, downward adjusted career expectations?

Turbo

 

[IronCityBlue]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

Not so sure about that.

W. doesn't like unions and while this may make it easier to initially certify one, it makes it far easier to decertify one as well. I bet there's a chance you could get 50% + 1 pilots at AAA to vent their frustrations by mailing in a postcard right about now.

This thing will be a tsunami of unintended consequences.

 

[Andy Neill]

Not so sure about that.

W. doesn't like unions and while this may make it easier to initially certify one, it makes it far easier to decertify one as well. I bet there's a chance you could get 50% + 1 pilots at AAA to vent their frustrations by mailing in a postcard right about now.

This thing will be a tsunami of unintended consequences.

There is nothing in HR 800 that makes it any easier to decertify a union. That was one of the three amendments voted down.

 

[IronCityBlue]

There is nothing in HR 800 that makes it any easier to decertify a union. That was one of the three amendments voted down.

OK I got it now I think.

In any case, I never saw the point of a vote to see if there will be a vote, followed by the actual vote that the initial vote set the stage for. One voting campaign should be all that's necessary. I don't really see that as a pro or anti labor thing in and of itself.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And it only applies to NLRB unions, aka trade unions. Unions under the RLA (transportation unions) will not be affected.

 

[Soverytired]

Are you enjoying your new, downward adjusted career expectations?

Turbo

Hmm. I'm not anti-union.

I just like secret ballots when I vote. As opposed to 3 or 4 organizers coming to my door step and pressuring me to sign a card. Repeatedly. And making sure that I know that they're going to let everyone I work with know if I signed it or not.

I really don't see why anyone could be against that.

 

[B727FA]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

Typical Union Pilot response: "Organized Labor sucks, except when it has to do with me."

 

[JoeMerchant]

Typical Union Pilot response: "Organized Labor sucks, except when it has to do with me."

1. We're not really a union.... if we were, we wouldn't be taking each other's work like we do, and we would take better care of each other.

2. What's wrong with the current system of a secret ballot to determine whether or not a union is wanted. The only reason to change the current system is so that people can be coerced into voting yes..... it is this "mob rule" that gives unions a black eye...

 

[John Pennekamp]

Alpa is most definitely not a union in the traditional sense. It is a patchwork of independent MECs. The original founders made it that way intentionally, because they found the union tactics of the day dispalatable. This is in fact why it's acall the Air Line Pilots ASSOCIATION (not union).

Unfortunately, this system of independent MECs bidding against each other is what makes it completely ineffective. When the normal union goes on strike, ALL the plants shut down. We can't do that because we have no national unity. Same goes for leaving one company for another. Your union card guarantees you pay on a single pay scale. Not for us.

 

[Andy Neill]

Yesterday, besides dealing with cloture on the Immigration Act, the Senate also considered cloture on H.R.800 discussed in this thread. Voting in favor were one Independent and 50 Democratic senators; voting against were all 49 Republicans (1 Democratic senator from SD did not vote). Since 60 votes for cloture were required, the debate goes on and the measure was not considered further.

 

[PCL_128]

Luckily, G.W. is gonna veto that piece of socialist garbage.

Socialist garbage? You work for one of the most evil men in corporate America, live under some of the worst working conditions in this industry, and you still think that less restrictive union organizing is a bad thing? What will it take for some pilots to wake up? G.W. doesn't give a $*&% about you, me, or anyone else who doesn't have a golden parachute and an expense account. I voted for the man twice. I regret my decision.

I doubt less than 5% of the flightinfo audience even knows what this is about though.

I think you need to stop regurgitating Newt's talking points and actually research the issue. This legislation would be the best thing to happen to working people in this country in decades.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Socialist garbage? You work for one of the most evil men in corporate America, live under some of the worst working conditions in this industry, and you still think that less restrictive union organizing is a bad thing? What will it take for some pilots to wake up? G.W. doesn't give a $*&% about you, me, or anyone else who doesn't have a golden parachute and an expense account. I voted for the man twice. I regret my decision.



I think you need to stop regurgitating Newt's talking points and actually research the issue. This legislation would be the best thing to happen to working people in this country in decades.

PCL_128,

You are turning into quite the left-winger. What is wrong with making a union vote a "secret ballot"? I am opposed to this legislation. The current system is best. Why are you union cheerleaders so opposed to a secret ballot?

 

[PCL_128]

You are turning into quite the left-winger.

Hardly. I just want a fair shake for the working man.

What is wrong with making a union vote a "secret ballot"?

Joe, if someone doesn't want to send in a card, then don't send in a card. Pretty simple. It's no different than the current authorization card system. As it stands right now, a campaign starts with "authorization cards" being sent in to the union. The union then tells the company that a majority of the members have signed cards, and asks the company to voluntarily certify on that basis. The company can refuse (and usually does) and demand that the members take the cards to the NLRB and request a vote.

Under the EFCA, the company can no longer refuse to certify the union once a majority of the cards have been recieved and verified as accurate to the NLRB by a third-party neutral. Nothing changes except the elimination of the redundant second step. The current authorization card system that begins the process isn't a secret ballot, but no one's been complaining about that. The secret ballot mantra is just a talking point by the anti-labor lobby.

The current system is best.

I did lots of organizing work for ALPA, and I can assure you that the current system is ripe for abuse by management. The prolonged system creates too many opportunities for the company to coerce and threaten workers. The system needs to be streamlined.

Why are you union cheerleaders so opposed to a secret ballot?

As I said, the current authorization cards aren't really "secret" either. The union receives them already. The only thing that's secret is the redundant vote that's entirely unnecessary.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hardly. I just want a fair shake for the working man.

Joe, if someone doesn't want to send in a card, then don't send in a card. Pretty simple. It's no different than the current authorization card system. As it stands right now, a campaign starts with "authorization cards" being sent in to the union. The union then tells the company that a majority of the members have signed cards, and asks the company to voluntarily certify on that basis. The company can refuse (and usually does) and demand that the members take the cards to the NLRB and request a vote.

Under the EFCA, the company can no longer refuse to certify the union once a majority of the cards have been recieved and verified as accurate to the NLRB by a third-party neutral. Nothing changes except the elimination of the redundant second step. The current authorization card system that begins the process isn't a secret ballot, but no one's been complaining about that. The secret ballot mantra is just a talking point by the anti-labor lobby.

I did lots of organizing work for ALPA, and I can assure you that the current system is ripe for abuse by management. The prolonged system creates too many opportunities for the company to coerce and threaten workers. The system needs to be streamlined.

As I said, the current authorization cards aren't really "secret" either. The union receives them already. The only thing that's secret is the redundant vote that's entirely unnecessary.

PCL,

I can tell you that union die-hards will stop at nothing to push an agenda. I know that first hand. Many people send in cards because of the pressure to do so. In other words, they want to "fit in". Then they vote NO when the actual secret ballot comes out. Why is it that ALPA is waiting for more cards than is necessary with the SKYW vote? The fact is, many people who send in the cards, don't really want a union. What is so wrong with a secret ballot?

By the way, "working man" is a left-winger term. It implies that only us "blue collar" workers are "working men". You are sounding like a Hillary supporter.....

 

[PCL_128]

Why is it that ALPA is waiting for more cards than is necessary with the SKYW vote?

Having a "strong majority" is a great indicator that the Association was successful in its efforts to reach the pilot group with the message. If only a slight majority of cards have been received, it's a good indicator that most pilots haven't been reached yet with the union's message. We never wanted to hold a vote before we felt that the pilot group had received enough information to make an informed decision.

The fact is, many people who send in the cards, don't really want a union. What is so wrong with a secret ballot?

There's simply no reason for it, Joe. If you were pushing for making the current authorization cards also secret, then it might make sense, but without that you just sound inconsistent. With the authorization cards not being binding right now, the anti-labor lobby doesn't seem to mind that they're not "secret." Now that they might become binding, suddenly it's a gross violation of privacy. Only when corporate America's choke-hold on labor is in jeopardy do Newt and GW suddenly find compassion for the working man's privacy with authorization cards. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Having a "strong majority" is a great indicator that the Association was successful in its efforts to reach the pilot group with the message. If only a slight majority of cards have been received, it's a good indicator that most pilots haven't been reached yet with the union's message. We never wanted to hold a vote before we felt that the pilot group had received enough information to make an informed decision.



There's simply no reason for it, Joe. If you were pushing for making the current authorization cards also secret, then it might make sense, but without that you just sound inconsistent. With the authorization cards not being binding right now, the anti-labor lobby doesn't seem to mind that they're not "secret." Now that they might become binding, suddenly it's a gross violation of privacy. Only when corporate America's choke-hold on labor is in jeopardy do Newt and GW suddenly find compassion for the working man's privacy with authorization cards. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Fine, then make it all secret... any problem with that? Face it, the unionistas want to be able to exert pressure on people, and that is wrong.......

The cards get sent in because of pressure and you know it..... Peer pressure is a strong force....