Burden on Captain

[OnTheRocks]

you guys are kinda sounding high and mighty on this one...kinda like the ones that blame every little slip on the f.o., or atc,etc. and assume liability for nothing. the truth of the whole thing is that were all stupid, and those that dont realize theyre stupid, are just plain dangerous....

 

[Guitar Guy]

You have two choices, you can stare at the instruments or you can impart your knowledge (which apparently you were born with) on the new FO and contribute to his education. Come to think of it you are also contributing to his education when you stare at the instruments, hopefully he realizes it's how not to act as a Captain.

And at most companies, one of the duties of a PIC is to further the development of the SIC.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

1. Learn how to talk on the radio. Your poor skills are embarrassing.

2. Basic airmanship like crosswind takeoffs and landings, smooth control application, and a normal traffic pattern are not optional.

Do you really think they are going to teach this stuff at the "school house"? My only lack of confidence is in my FO. Having to always worry about what you are or aren't going to do makes my job harder than it needs to be.

I have no problem "mentoring" as I instructed for two years. I thought I was through holding hands though.

And soon enough I will be "bidding back to FO" - AT A MAJOR!

And how do you want to be treated as an FO when you get to the major?

Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer. Do you want the captain to say, you're at a major I am done hand holding you guys. Wanna go Transoceanic? Do you want the Captains to show you how to fly the Atlantic routes or expect you to be a schoolhouse wunderkind?

As a Capts we can show the new guys how to do it right or we can be bitter pilots and forward our attitudes on to them. The fact is we cannot control who sits in the right seat. As FAA qualified FO's we get what we get. These new guys despertly want to fit it and will copy the culture provided, right or wrong. If they see poor captains they take it at face value as they way its done. They do not know the diff between a good Capt and a poor one. We need to be leaders and show them the professional way. Sure it takes more effort but you'll feel better in two years when you have to deadhead or j/s and said FO is the Capt. (cause it is gonna happen)

Problem is... if the poor Capts won't teach these guys how to talk on the radio, xwind landings etc.. then when they fly with the other capts they are going to ask who've they've been flying with and when the names come up we'll know who the poor Captains are....

In addition, we provide a negative learning environemnt to the new FO's only to shove them off on to your fellow Captains. When you get a new FO do you want one that has just flown a good four day with a Captain that took the time to teach, empower and promote or do you want a fearful, angry bitter FO that has regressed all he's learned from the school house cause some tool Capt treated him like garbage?

 

[Leroy Smith]

I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

No, it means you have attained the absolute minimum standards necessary to be and apprentice pilot. If you have some other real-world experience behind you, then you are ahead of the game. Would you say an instrument rating is proof that the rated person is competant to fly in all types of conditions? Of course not, it means that person has demonstrated the ability to perform a set of tasks to the minimum requirements of the Practical Test Standards. They are minimally qualified to fly in the IFR system and to start learning about all that goes on in it. The rest of it takes more effort to learn safely than the rating did.

I dont begrudge all the captains the priveledge of b!tching about it, but it is the new reality. New hire qualifications keep going down and the reality is that you will be instructing/mentoring/babysitting/etc whether you like it or not. Maybe its not what you signed on for, but if you dont take the time, they wont get any better. And a lot of them really do want to do the right thing. (More or less, what the Rez said)

Any of you low-time guys lucky enough to get upgraded fast: be careful out there! I hope you were paying attention for that brief time in the right seat, and got as much as you could from the good captains you flew with.

 

[huncowboy]

I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

I am still an FO. The above is an incorrect assumption. Interviews at the regional are so canned that most are easy to pass not to mention the web is full with gouges. About training I used to figure the same until I have witnessed at least two persons in my class passing who had no business in this profession. I have also witnessed another 4 being sent home. Some, but not everyone is filtered out in training.

Obviously not everyone is filtered out at upgrade either because just about everyone on this board can tell you that he or she has flown with someone in the left seat who absolutely scared the crap out of them. It is very rare but it happens.

According to my instructors and a random FAA backseater: I did very well in training. Still I know that I was a burden for my first few trips. The CA had to keep doing small stuff for me or explain something that I have never heard of. With every trip things got a lot better and after about 100h I felt comfortable. However looking back now (after one year) I am convinced that comfort was a very false sense of security. I was still far from being able to catch most mistakes that came from the left side and I was not able to keep thinking ahead of the plane as much as most CAs can. Now I am doing extra stuff that some CAs don't, or I remind them on small things that they have missed. I still make mistakes but only few and mostly minor ones. I still learn something on each trip but mostly local things unique to certain airports.

IMO anyone who gets into 121 w/o prior 121 experience or anyone who changes plane will be a burden for some time. There are many small things that are particular to 121 and there are many small things that are particular to each plane. Not knowing them will make you vulnerable to mistake, or just slow you down. Either way, it will be up to the more experienced to correct you and provide you with guidance.

 

[~~~^~~~]

you guys are kinda sounding high and mighty on this one...kinda like the ones that blame every little slip on the f.o., or atc,etc. and assume liability for nothing. the truth of the whole thing is that were all stupid, and those that dont realize theyre stupid, are just plain dangerous....

Good point. I'm not "high" or "mighty." A more experienced FO is more likely to tell me if I'm doing something "unusual" and keep us both out of trouble.

A new guy is less likely know what "unusual" is.

And actually, I think the point most people are trying to make is that every slip up is the Captain's slip up, since the Captain is the one held responsible for it no matter how it happens.

Look at your Operations Manual. Think it is any coincidence that the Vice President of Flight Operations is responsible for one paragraph and the Captain's responsibilities take the next 40 pages?

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

And how do you want to be treated as an FO when you get to the major?

Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer. Do you want the captain to say, you're at a major I am done hand holding you guys. Wanna go Transoceanic? Do you want the Captains to show you how to fly the Atlantic routes or expect you to be a schoolhouse wunderkind?

As a Capts we can show the new guys how to do it right or we can be bitter pilots and forward our attitudes on to them. The fact is we cannot control who sits in the right seat. As FAA qualified FO's we get what we get. These new guys despertly want to fit it and will copy the culture provided, right or wrong. If they see poor captains they take it at face value as they way its done. They do not know the diff between a good Capt and a poor one. We need to be leaders and show them the professional way. Sure it takes more effort but you'll feel better in two years when you have to deadhead or j/s and said FO is the Capt. (cause it is gonna happen)

Problem is... if the poor Capts won't teach these guys how to talk on the radio, xwind landings etc.. then when they fly with the other capts they are going to ask who've they've been flying with and when the names come up we'll know who the poor Captains are....

In addition, we provide a negative learning environemnt to the new FO's only to shove them off on to your fellow Captains. When you get a new FO do you want one that has just flown a good four day with a Captain that took the time to teach, empower and promote or do you want a fearful, angry bitter FO that has regressed all he's learned from the school house cause some tool Capt treated him like garbage?

There is a big difference in teaching someone how to land an airplane and dealing with the specifics of "transoceanic" flight.

If you are hired to be an accountant, teacher, etc., you are expected to be at least proficient at the tasks required in your position. I am tired of flying with people that could not hold their own in a 172, let alone a jet. They would not make it a week flying night freight. But I am expected to train them on basics they should have acquired before coming here.

I am not bitter towards these people, just disappointed in a system that allows this to continue. I don't care if the FO just came off a four day with your "empowering" captain or a poor one, I would sometimes rather have an extra 200 pounds of fuel than someone sitting over there f'ing everything up.

 

[Marsupial]

Lets talk about the CA who is a burden on the FO! Ive been there and its not fun having to baby sit somebody (usally a chick) that has been around for a while. That shouldnt be any FO's job! Its amazing how some CA's havent figured out there is more to it than being good with the paper work and call outs!

wtf? that post would have been fine without that particular interjection.

 

[Tarzan]

Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer.

Time out there! While there will always be those who slip through the cracks because their daddy knows the right people, most folks moving on to legacy carriers are NOT 250-500 pilot mill kids. By the time the time they move on, they can talk on the radio, they can discuss how to work through a problem, they understand what to expect with windshear, etc. Huge difference there between the two contexts. So much difference, it really does not hold enough water to discuss.

 

[Goose Egg]

I think its just a overall lack of experience, making decisions etc You probably need at least 1000 TT to be a FO in a jet.

At 700-800 hours, I never would have believed that. Now pushing 1200, I wonder how I ever got along before; there is a huge difference in my level of competency. And I'm as excited to go be an FO on a jet as anyone, but even now I wonder if there still might be some holes in my experience.

Anyway, for what it's worth...

-Goose

 

[Rally]

I was'nt saying there is a magic number of 1000 hours I was merely making the point that at 250 hours your probably not ready.

 

[Goose Egg]

I was'nt saying there is a magic number of 1000 hours I was merely making the point that at 250 hours your probably not ready.

Naw, I gotcha... I wasn't ready at 700, and that's really all I was trying to say.

-Goose

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There is a big difference in teaching someone how to land an airplane and dealing with the specifics of "transoceanic" flight.

Its called empathy. Either you understand it or you don't. No pun intended...

If you are hired to be an accountant, teacher, etc., you are expected to be at least proficient at the tasks required in your position. I am tired of flying with people that could not hold their own in a 172, let alone a jet.

You fly with your FO's in C172's too? Wow...it is nice to compare. So you are going to be a big boy "pro" in a wide body right out of IOE.... I know I won't be and i'll be looking to the Capt to guide and direct me to be a better pilot.

They would not make it a week flying night freight.

Are they trying to make it flying night freight?

But I am expected to train them on basics they should have acquired before coming here.

Yes you are expected. If you don't get it then we all have a problem. it is what it is... why are you trying to control what you can't?

I am not bitter towards these people, just disappointed in a system that allows this to continue.

Sorry, your earlier posts suggested you hate the players.. but its really the game?

I don't care if the FO just came off a four day with your "empowering" captain or a poor one,

I do. I'd rather you fly with an FO that I worked with to be better than fly with a FO that you disrespected and chided... but hey that is just me...

I would sometimes rather have an extra 200 pounds of fuel than someone sitting over there f'ing everything up.

Like I said if you can't put value in the guy that highlights your skillset...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Time out there! While there will always be those who slip through the cracks because their daddy knows the right people, most folks moving on to legacy carriers are NOT 250-500 pilot mill kids. By the time the time they move on, they can talk on the radio, they can discuss how to work through a problem, they understand what to expect with windshear, etc. Huge difference there between the two contexts. So much difference, it really does not hold enough water to discuss.

Not sure if I will ever fly widebody overseas but if I do I hope the Capt will have pateince and show me how to fly the atlantic/pacific/polar and function in the hundreds of different cultures, ATCs, international aviation rules etc...

I guess all the guys moving on to legacy carriers know all that stuff...

 

[Way2Broke]

No, it means you have attained the absolute minimum standards necessary to be and apprentice pilot. If you have some other real-world experience behind you, then you are ahead of the game. Would you say an instrument rating is proof that the rated person is competant to fly in all types of conditions? Of course not, it means that person has demonstrated the ability to perform a set of tasks to the minimum requirements of the Practical Test Standards. They are minimally qualified to fly in the IFR system and to start learning about all that goes on in it. The rest of it takes more effort to learn safely than the rating did.

I dont begrudge all the captains the priveledge of b!tching about it, but it is the new reality. New hire qualifications keep going down and the reality is that you will be instructing/mentoring/babysitting/etc whether you like it or not. Maybe its not what you signed on for, but if you dont take the time, they wont get any better. And a lot of them really do want to do the right thing. (More or less, what the Rez said)

Any of you low-time guys lucky enough to get upgraded fast: be careful out there! I hope you were paying attention for that brief time in the right seat, and got as much as you could from the good captains you flew with.

"apprentice pilot"

Are you kidding me? With that attitude you sound like a "Apprentice Captain." I guess the FAA requires two crew members because they figure its the only way you can train a real pilot. Give me a break.

 

[Way2Broke]

Lets talk about the CA who is a burden on the FO! Ive been there and its not fun having to baby sit somebody (usally a chick) that has been around for a while. That shouldnt be any FO's job! Its amazing how some CA's havent figured out there is more to it than being good with the paper work and call outs!

"Usually a chick"

Ever think that your preconceived notions about female (NOT CHICK) pilots causes you to not work well with them? Go back to CRM training. Sometimes the FO is a stronger pilot than the Captain, however they are still the Captain and you are still the FO. Its your job to work together to achieve a acceptable level of safety. I'm sorry you have problems with women being in a position of authority. Welcome to 1960...ohumm.. I mean 2007.

 

[acaTerry]

Way2Broke....PLEASE tell me where I can get a copy of that avatar. It's the best I've seen yet.

 

[Draginass]

It's not just a problem in the regionals. The heavy freighter business has a lot of problem FOs (and some captains). The companies just pass them through because they need seat fillers and make 'em the captain's problem.

 

[vectorvictor]

Oh, sweet irony... It never fails!

I kan spel reely.

 

[vectorvictor]

Lets talk about the CA who is a burden on the FO! Ive been there and its not fun having to baby sit somebody (usally a chick) that has been around for a while. That shouldnt be any FO's job! Its amazing how some CA's havent figured out there is more to it than being good with the paper work and call outs!

FYI This is the year 2007AD. You an idiot. (I spelled it correctly this time.)

 

[John_W_Thompson]

To put a different spin on all this: I have flown with green FO's who were a true asset (knew the books & had the appropriate level of respect for my position and responsibility) and are a joy to share the cockpit with. Then I have flown with people who are not anything like what I just described, and in addition I have to watch them so much, that a normal day is very fatiguing. I am not shooting from the hip, this stuff has happenned to me literally hundreds of times.

To any concerned FO's: if you are worried that you may be one of the culprits, chances are good that you ARE NOT! The people I am talking about don't take their job seriously, and don't really care (as much as you do).

A good acid test whether you are an asset is if you are making good catches so the Captain doesn't have to catch them all. He will be thankful. But be careful not to make yourself an ass in the process.

- john

 

[Stifler's Mom]

FYI This is the year 2007AD. You an idiot. (I spelled it correctly this time.)

CA1900's going to have another good laugh. :laugh:

 

[shamrock]

You an idiot.

He an kettle, you an pot.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Good lord Shamrock what is that avatar?

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
I've flown with some really low-time guys and most catch on pretty quickly. It's a near necessity to catch on quickly flying the Beech 1900 with no autopilot. Most are eager to learn and do a good job. What worries me the most is the level of experience in the left-seat coupled with low-time F/Os. Therein lies the true safety hazard, and on any given day you could have a new Captain with an equally new F/O. Not "green-on-green" by the FARs, but potentially just as dangerous. This hazard will continue as the legacies begin to hire in the next couple of years. Stand-by for heavy rolls as we used to say...

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[N60OSU]

They would not make it a week flying night freight.

Particularly since they need 1200 to fly night freight.

I just came off of my first IOE trip and my greatest fear going onto the line is a captain who has your apparent attitude that every FO they get is a 200 hr wunderkind.

For what it's worth in my newhire class of 22 I was, at 31 years old with 2300 TT, in the middle of the pack on both of those numbers. We had 2 20+ year Air Force guys, 3 with previouse 121 experience, and 5 coming from 135 (including me out of the above mentioned night freight world). That makes a little less than half the class with significant operational experience and those are just the ones I know of for certain. I believe we only had 2 with under 1000 TT. But I suppose that's the benefit of bringing in guys that aren't hung up on the fastest upgrade.

My IOE captain was fantastic and I appreciate that. I made some mistakes and he helped me out quite a bit but (and he might disagree) I don't feel that at any time I put the safety of the flight in jeopardy. Perhaps you could give your FOs the benefit of the doubt.

 

[BLing]

"Usually a chick"

Ever think that your preconceived notions about female (NOT CHICK) pilots causes you to not work well with them? Go back to CRM training. Sometimes the FO is a stronger pilot than the Captain, however they are still the Captain and you are still the FO. Its your job to work together to achieve a acceptable level of safety. I'm sorry you have problems with women being in a position of authority. Welcome to 1960...ohumm.. I mean 2007.

The "chicks" I have had a problem with are the queens of failed training events, pro standards complaints, and FO's refusing to fly with them. While their skills were not up to standard (with a few self induced dangerous encounters) their attitudes and use of CRM flat out sucked and was their weakest skill! They take offense to anything and I mean anything! You tell them something they are not aware of that affects the safety of flight, and you get yelled out because they already "know that!" They treat crew members, passengers and the ground personnel like garbage! They are very well known and hated through out the system. One of them only asked for and valued my input when she would loose control of the airplane and I was told the controls were mine! After words I would hear every excuse in the book how it was the airplanes fault....

I have no problem with women pilots, I just have yet to fly with one that was any good! Sorry, but the truth hurts!

 

[BLing]

FYI This is the year 2007AD. You an idiot. (I spelled it correctly this time.)

Point?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. What worries me the most is the level of experience in the left-seat coupled with low-time F/Os.

It is easier to point fingers and place the blame game on the weak FO's thus the CA's can divert attention and convince themsleves that thier own low time and experience, and pathetic attitude isn't a factor.

 

[taters]

The "chicks" I have had a problem with are the queens of failed training events, pro standards complaints, and FO's refusing to fly with them. While their skills were not up to standard (with a few self induced dangerous encounters) their attitudes and use of CRM flat out sucked and was their weakest skill! They take offense to anything and I mean anything! You tell them something they are not aware of that affects the safety of flight, and you get yelled out because they already "know that!" They treat crew members, passengers and the ground personnel like garbage! They are very well known and hated through out the system. One of them only asked for and valued my input when she would loose control of the airplane and I was told the controls were mine! After words I would hear every excuse in the book how it was the airplanes fault....

I have no problem with women pilots, I just have yet to fly with one that was any good! Sorry, but the truth hurts!

OUCH!! it does hurt....but I agree