SmartSkies

[Sticky]

Have you guys seen the these clips on the CNN airport network? Check out the "advertisements".

http://www.smartskies.org/News/Videos/

......those evil corporate types....

 

[BoilerUP]

Its running almost nonstop in DCA.

Deceptive, even worse than most political slam ads. Too bad they don't mention the percentage of departures bizav has at LGA, JFK, EWR, DCA, IAD (well, maybe they got me there), ATL, DFW, ORD, LAX, and SFO....and then run the percentage of departures regional jets have at the same airports.

 

[Sticky]

Yeah...it maybe true that there are twice as many GA biz jets as airliners, but 99% of those biz jets don't fly into the congested airline airports.

However, they should probably pay into the ATC system alittle more than they do now.

 

[BoilerUP]

However, they should probably pay into the ATC system alittle more than they do now.

Everybody pays the same now via a per-gallon fuel tax.

Why should GA be forced to pay an unfair additional subsidy for an air traffic system that is built specifically to cater to the large hub airports of the airlines?

 

[flyer172r]

All the pro-user fee advocates say that we need a new revenue system to pay for ATC modernization. And if we don't have ATC modernization, then we'll be facing complete gridlock at the nation's airports. But that gridlock will take place at all the major airline aiirports because of their inability to schedule efficiently. So why should GA pilots and aircraft owners pay more for that? Especially considering the Government Accounting Office has stated that there is plenty of money in the Aviation Trust Fund to pay for NextGen, and that the proposed system would bring in less revenue than the current one.

People who seem to constantly run their businesses into bankruptcy have no right to tell the FAA that they need to be run more like a business.

 

[Sticky]

Oh..come on...the ATC system doesn't only caters to large hubs. Of course, they require more man power. A GA flight from PWK to APA still uses the Chicago and Denver TRACON. The fuel tax is a fine foundation for funding basic ATC services, but as the number of aircraft increase (airline and GA), the cost to develop a better ATC system cannot be supported by fuel tax alone. Do you think its fair for a GA aircraft to only pay for a fraction of the services it is supplied?

 

[atlcrashpad]

Have you guys seen the these clips on the CNN airport network? Check out the "advertisements".

http://www.smartskies.org/News/Videos/

......those evil corporate types....

That commercial is more slanted than Mao Zedong.....

 

[Sticky]

Especially considering the Government Accounting Office has stated that there is plenty of money in the Aviation Trust Fund to pay for NextGen, and that the proposed system would bring in less revenue than the current one.

That maybe true, but biz jets still use the same system and are provided the same service as airliners. Last time I was in the New York TRACON, there was just as much attention and resources used on coordinating TEB and HPN traffic as LGA and JFK. The same flow control computers were used.

I'd really like to know how much per aircraft the FAA spends on GA versus Airline flights...

 

[BoilerUP]

Last time I was in the New York TRACON, there was just as much attention and resources used on coordinating TEB and HPN traffic as LGA and JFK.

TEB, MMU, and HPN are very busy bizav airports...but they relieve those aircraft from congested, chronic delay-prone EWR, JFK and LGA. Remember just how much non-121 traffic went up at MDW when Daley bulldozed Meigs? ATC might devote equal time and resources to a bizjet as they do any airliner, but that equal time and equal resources do not equate to delays for airline passengers. The equal time and resources point can be argued also...just ask anybody whose sat at TEB or MMU for hours babysitting a radio, waiting for ground to call and tell you that you can start engines and taxi and your delay will only be 45 minutes from your ready to taxi call...

I'd really like to know how much per aircraft the FAA spends on GA versus Airline flights...

I would too.

I would also like to know the percentage of 121 vs. non-121 ops at the 10 most airline delay-prone airports in the United States.

And then I'd like to know exactly WTF the first question has to do with the second vs. airline delays, which is the talking point of SmartSkies.

 

[Sticky]

And then I'd like to know exactly WTF the first question has to do with the second vs. airline delays, which is the talking point of SmartSkies.

The commercial is outrages. The smartskies really F'd that one up. Biz jets don't cause delays at large airports. They don't get priority handling by ATC. That "advertisement" really torqued me off.

However...the point of smartskies is that GA aircraft don't pay a fair share. I think the term "fair share" means apples to apples. A GA aircraft that flys from TEB to PWK uses the same services as an airliners from LGA to ORD. I agree with that.

The airlines get all moist over the NextGen ATC systems only for one reason....fuel savings.

 

[flyer172r]

The commercial is outrages. The smartskies really F'd that one up. Biz jets don't cause delays at large airports. They don't get priority handling by ATC. That "advertisement" really torqued me off.

However...the point of smartskies is that GA aircraft don't pay a fair share. I think the term "fair share" means apples to apples. A GA aircraft that flys from TEB to PWK uses the same services as an airliners from LGA to ORD. I agree with that.

The airlines get all moist over the NextGen ATC systems only for one reason....fuel savings.

Well, if airlines were really that into fuel savings, they would have working GPUs and air conditioning available at the gate to reduce APU usage, buy more fuel-efficient planes instead of still flying gas-guzzling DC-9s and MD-88s, and have sufficient ground personnel working the ramp to reduce delays waiting for a gate.

Now about what's a "fair share," I think an important point is how many people are you moving through the ATC system. This is why the fuel tax is a "fair" way of paying for ATC services. Bigger airplanes move more people through the system, and usually burn more fuel thus paying more tax.

The sad truth of the matter is that very few, if any, items in the US tax code can be considered "fair." This system may not be considered fair by everyone, but it works. Now I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that there is a lot of waste at the FAA (like all government agencies), and that finding ways to reduce that waste would benefit everyone.

 

[flyer172r]

Here's a page from the Alliance for Aviation Across America website that says airlines drive the costs of the system. Unfortunately I can't find a link that says how they determined that to be true. I wish I could.

http://www.aviationacrossamerica.com/pubs/mythsrealities.cfm

 

[Sticky]

Now about what's a "fair share," I think an important point is how many people are you moving through the ATC system. This is why the fuel tax is a "fair" way of paying for ATC services. Bigger airplanes move more people through the system, and usually burn more fuel thus paying more tax.

There are two different taxes. Fuel and passenger. Fuel tax is paid by the owner/operator. Passenger tax is paid by the passenger. The only tax on GA aircraft is fuel tax. However, airlines are required to collect the tax from passengers and then hand it over to Uncle Sam...just like sales tax at a store. The airlines don't pay the passenger tax.

How is it that an aircraft that holds 200 people from JFK to ORD generates about $2500 in tax revenue, but a private jet with 2 people from TEB to PWK collects nothing? They both used the same system and were provided the same service from the same facilities.

 

[CDHannah]

If it ain't broke, don't let the Bush administration try to fix it ... i.e. .70/ gallon increase for GA fuel tax.

 

[Sticky]

Here's a page from the Alliance for Aviation Across America website that says airlines drive the costs of the system. Unfortunately I can't find a link that says how they determined that to be true. I wish I could.

http://www.aviationacrossamerica.com/pubs/mythsrealities.cfm

Interesting. That seems to be just as narrow as smartskies. They say that a airliner cost more to control than a private plane. BS. The blips on the radar screen all require the same services. What the website is referencing are reports that include private aircraft operating VFR uncontrolled! Factor those in, and I'm sure the overall cost of private aircraft goes down.

The BOTTOM line is that private aircraft are riding piggy back on a system that paid for by airline passengers.

The taxes charged on fuel alone cannot pay for the services a gulfstream requires to fly from LAX to TEB.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The BOTTOM line is that private aircraft are riding piggy back on a system that paid for by airline passengers.

The taxes charged on fuel alone cannot pay for the services a gulfstream requires to fly from LAX to TEB.

How do you know what the services used by a Gulfstream from LAX to TEB cost? How do you know the taxes on the 6 tons of gas burned are not enough? Please break this down for us.

In any event, attaching another seventy cents on to AvGas is going to result in many parked C172's and Bonanzas. Folks like me who use small airplanes for business will find themselves with an economic incentive to avoid the system - a system which is there for SAFETY.

Lets see, I could skirt the side of busy commercial Class B airspace with my nifty GPS allowing me the precision of staying exactly a half a mile from controlled airspace while I run around the side, or I could pay $40 for flight following. Or $80 to actually coordinate separation with a controller. What is safe? What will most private pilots choose?

Sticky - if you are a pilot, you should know, this is a safety issue as well as an economic issue. Would you want to land in Atlanta, where the controllers regularly vector traffic outside the class B on busy days, knowing Joe private pilot is avoiding talking to air traffic control because he does not have the extra $40 after paying over $200 to fill up his 1960 Cessna 172?

Look around Sun and Fun this year. If this passes, general aviation as we know it is on its way out. The "fat cats" will shrug it off and as a percentage of aviation operations they are too small to make a funding impact.

Bottom line is actually this - Our Constitution gave Congress the power of the budget and the Executive Branch the power to execute the law. The FAA is trying to make an end run around our nation's Constitution by taking funding direct from citizens bypassing Congressional scruitiny.

What if the White House decides to tax the war separately? Everyone could make a tax for their own little pet causes.

Our Nation is a nation of laws founded on a Constitution. Of all the concerns I have over our White House, George Bush's violation of his pledge to uphold our Nation's Constitution is the most serious.

 

[~~~^~~~]

How is it that an aircraft that holds 200 people from JFK to ORD generates about $2500 in tax revenue, but a private jet with 2 people from TEB to PWK collects nothing? They both used the same system and were provided the same service from the same facilities.

A private jet that can fly from TEB to PWK with two people has no passengers because both people are the pilots.

Was this supposed to be a riddle? Someone say Riddle?