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SWA Business plan Tanking..Did I miss something?

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Yep. Every dog has his day but I still trust in Gary Kelly. Judging by the legacy carries 2003 to present I still like our odds. I can PROMISE you that this pilot group will be first in line to keep this company viable. This is our CAREER and, as a whole, we understand that you and everybody else has the crosshairs firming planted on our backs.

Our CASM is still a penny under our nearest competitor and we still pay cash for our new aircraft. I wouldn't throw dirt on the grave just yet.

Gup
 
It's called "market share." Southwest will fly a route (even if they lose money on it) just to secure market share. Once they attract and establish a customer base on that route with extremely low fares, they'll start raising the fares enough to make a profit. This strategy is talked about in the book, "Nuts." That article was one person's opinion. I'm sure Gary Kelly and Southwest management know what they're doing!
 
McAdoo failed at Peoples Express and failed at Vanguard. Him making commentary on SWA is like Rosie O'Donnell dissing Paul Harvey.
 
Doomed. Doomed I say, we'll be liquidating by end of summer, mark my words.

Or we'll start doing international.
 
Like it or not, this industry rolls in cycles. I remember the proud SWA FO proclaiming his superiorty to everyone 18 months ago. The reality is that SWA may actually have to work for a buck from here on out. Nothing lasts forever. The sad fact is that ( as another poster put it in another duplicate thread ) that the "legacies" have had the help of government training wheels for sometime now. They now have costs atleast close to inline with SWA. Was it fair? No, I really don't think it was. I think one of those ( i.e. US, UA, DL, NWA ) should have been allowed to fail. I think it would have balanced the industry a bit. Would have sucked for those at the failed carrier, but hey thats the breaks folks. SWA employees can breath easy. They aren't going anywhere. Its just that, well, the easy pickin's may be gone now. Maybe its time to say, that we aren't immune. And again with my opinion, for what its worth, anyone with any common sense would be going to box land. Fedex, UPS, DHL. Boxes don't b!tch.
 
The reality is that SWA may actually have to work for a buck from here on out.

Ummm... Southwest employees are probably some of the most productive and hard working employees out there. I believe they've worked DAMN hard over the years to get where they are.
 
I can PROMISE you that this pilot group will be first in line to keep this company viable.

Music to my ears!

On behalf of greedy executives everywhere, I want to thank you for being there to cover managerial blunders.

I see no reason that the management team should have to pay for it.
 
Ummm... Southwest employees are probably some of the most productive and hard working employees out there. I believe they've worked DAMN hard over the years to get where they are.

Dude, chill! Some of us here were jumpseating with the SWA guys when you were reading "Dick and Jane" and dropping your pencil to try to look up Mary Katherine's skirt.

We know how hard SWA people worked to get where they are. Why do you think they are well liked? (Except for SWA FO, that is...)

They'll be fine--but just don't tell the newbies they will upgrade in 5 years so they won't be bitter and pissed off if they don't. TC

P.S.--Why is it that analysts are smart when they say something we want to hear but they're morons when they're talking smack about MY airline? ;)
 
It's called "market share." Southwest will fly a route (even if they lose money on it) just to secure market share. Once they attract and establish a customer base on that route with extremely low fares, they'll start raising the fares enough to make a profit. This strategy is talked about in the book, "Nuts." That article was one person's opinion. I'm sure Gary Kelly and Southwest management know what they're doing!

That book was written before JetBlue, Skybus and VA existed. Plus, Air Tran, Spirit, Frontier and even Alaska were much smaller operations at that time. The competitive landscape is very different now.

Going forward, you will have many LCCs searching for growth (with no growth, stock prices will dive) with considerable pressure on yields from the upstarts. Have you seen how many airplanes SWA, Air Tran, VA, Jet Blue and Spirit have on order over the next year or two? That's a huge amount of capacity searching for growth. Meanwhile, you have the incumbants like Delta, UAL, AA, CAL and now NWA (leaving Chap 11 much stronger) who won't just lie down and die - they will fight to maintain market share. These legacies will continue to expand the use of lower-cost 70-90 seat RJs (these did not exist when NUTS was written). You see this with Delta using E170s and putting them on competing Air Tran routes - the E170s are just as comfortable for pax and yet the pax have access to Delta's worldwide route structure. Watch as Delta eventually adds lower-cost E190s (in addition to the growing stable of E170s and CR9s) and deploys them on competing Air Tran, SWA and Jet Blue routes all over the country (I presume the Delta pilots on the E190s will be paid wages similar to those paid the Delta Express 737-200 pilots pre-9/11).

The point is that the LCCs will increasingly compete with each other on overlapping routes while they search for growth and places to put their new capacity. Yields can not be maintained forever on increasingly competitive routes and profits will likely suffer - that's just logical. Watch what will happen in SFO as VA ramps up while SWA and Jet Blue enter that market to cut it off. That should be fun to watch - I doubt UAL will sit there and watch the battle without ensuring it maintains its diminishing piece of the domestic pie.

Boyd can knock Skybus and VA all he wants, but remember that Jet Blue was also very well funded years ago and its viability was called into question then too - you never know in this business... Fuel prices (and the ability to hedge fuel effectively) and currency exchange rates will continue to play a role for all airlines - nobody is immune including SWA. SWA's lack of IFE and its cattle-car boarding with unassigned seats won't help its cause either.

Bottom line, I don't think SWA will ever be hurt significantly, but it will no longer have the freedom to develop markets over time and its profit margins will likely not be as fat in the future - there are too many LCCs scrapping for its core market and the Legacies are deploying lower-cost 70-90 seat RJs to maintain market share and preserve international feed. Stock analysts will continue to look for growth and profitable LCC routes/markets will continue to attract competition with growing fleets and few good places to put those expensive airplanes... Should be interesting to watch.

That's my $0.02.


Again, Netjets/NJI would be a safer bet than a lot of these 121 carriers in my opinion. Netjets will always have wealthy customers willing to throw money around and it is the leader in its market by a very wide margin. I don't fly for Netjets, but if I didn't have my current gig I would certainly look into it.
 
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That book was written before JetBlue, Skybus and VA existed. Plus, Air Tran, Spirit, Frontier and even Alaska were much smaller operations at that time. The competitive landscape is very different now.

Going forward, you will have many LCCs searching for growth (with no growth, stock prices will dive) with considerable pressure on yields from the upstarts. Have you seen how many airplanes SWA, Air Tran, VA, Jet Blue and Spirit have on order over the next year or two? That's a huge amount of capacity searching for growth. Meanwhile, you have the incumbants like Delta, UAL, AA, CAL and now NWA (leaving Chap 11 much stronger) who won't just lie down and die - they will fight to maintain market share. These legacies will continue to expand the use of lower-cost 70-90 seat RJs (these did not exist when NUTS was written). You see this with Delta using E170s and putting them on competing Air Tran routes - the E170s are just as comfortable for pax and yet the pax have access to Delta's worldwide route structure. Watch as Delta eventually adds lower-cost E190s (in addition to the growing stable of E170s and CR9s) and deploys them on competing Air Tran, SWA and Jet Blue routes all over the country (I presume the Delta pilots on the E190s will be paid wages similar to those paid the Delta Express 737-200 pilots pre-9/11).

The point is that the LCCs will increasingly compete with each other on overlapping routes while they search for growth and places to put their new capacity. Yields can not be maintained forever on increasingly competitive routes and profits will likely suffer - that's just logical. Watch what will happen in SFO as VA ramps up while SWA and Jet Blue enter that market to cut it off. That should be fun to watch - I doubt UAL will sit there and watch the battle without ensuring it maintains its diminishing piece of the domestic pie.

Boyd can knock Skybus and VA all he wants, but remember that Jet Blue was also very well funded years ago and its viability was called into question then too - you never know in this business... Fuel prices (and the ability to hedge fuel effectively) and currency exchange rates will continue to play a role for all airlines - nobody is immune including SWA. SWA's lack of IFE and its cattle-car boarding with unassigned seats won't help its cause either.

Bottom line, I don't think SWA will ever be hurt significantly, but it will no longer have the freedom to develop markets over time and its profit margins will likely not be as fat in the future - there are too many LCCs scrapping for its core market and the Legacies are deploying lower-cost 70-90 seat RJs to maintain market share and preserve international feed. Stock analysts will continue to look for growth and profitable LCC routes/markets will continue to attract competition with growing fleets and few good places to put those expensive airplanes... Should be interesting to watch.

That's my $0.02.


Again, Netjets/NJI would be a safer bet than a lot of these 121 carriers in my opinion. Netjets will always have wealthy customers willing to throw money around and it is the leader in its market by a very wide margin. I don't fly for Netjets, but if I didn't have my current gig I would certainly look into it.

:::::::::Yawn::::::: Zzzzzzzzzzz...

I wound't give $0.01 for your $0.02.
 
:::::::::Yawn::::::: Zzzzzzzzzzz...

I wound't give $0.01 for your $0.02.

You impress me with your ability to debate. Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, I'd love to hear why... But I doubt you can articulate a logical response.

The competitive environment has changed and you need to deal with it.... Adding more SWA airplanes ain't gonna cut it with so much competition and profitable routes being targeted. Maybe you could start with your lame cattle-car boarding process (NOBODY LIKES IT) and lack of IFE. By the way, the FA jokes get annoying after awhile. Can't wait to see the Virgin America FAs and IFE - they will set the standard.
 
You impress me with your ability to debate. Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, I'd love to hear why... But I doubt you can articulate a logical response.

The competitive environment has changed and you need to deal with it.... Adding more SWA airplanes ain't gonna cut it with so much competition and profitable routes being targeted. Maybe you could start with your lame cattle-car boarding process (NOBODY LIKES IT) and lack of IFE. By the way, the FA jokes get annoying after awhile. Can't wait to see the Virgin America FAs and IFE - they will set the standard.

I'll say it again and again. You're hoping for the demise of the only successful carrier out there. (In terms of profit and employee wages and benefits). You cant wait to see VA. Are you an total idiot? You cant wait to see a start up come in paying their employees pennies and undercut good carriers? Swa will be fine. Again, you might get what your wishing for...swa will cut costs with employee consessions and then everyone can have substandard wages. Why dont you think for just a second? Why dont you realize how stupid that article is and for swa to keep on succeeding and then soon, maybe, everyone can go UP (what a concept) to higher wages again.
 
I'll say it again and again. You're hoping for the demise of the only successful carrier out there. (In terms of profit and employee wages and benefits). You cant wait to see VA. Are you an total idiot? You cant wait to see a start up come in paying their employees pennies and undercut good carriers? Swa will be fine. Again, you might get what your wishing for...swa will cut costs with employee consessions and then everyone can have substandard wages. Why dont you think for just a second? Why dont you realize how stupid that article is and for swa to keep on succeeding and then soon, maybe, everyone can go UP (what a concept) to higher wages again.

I am not hoping for anything - and I would certainly never wish for SWA's demise - it won't happen. I have many friends there. You need to remove emotion from the equation.

I am refering to the changing competitive environment and how that can impact SWA and the other LCCs going forward - get it? Do you disagree with my points about increasing competition and reduced margins going forward? I'd love to hear a counter argument if someone could articulate one - but I highly doubt it. I'm no expert but I'd love to hear other opinions.

I was a part of this industry at one point too and I watch it closely because I still have many friends flying for all of the major carriers.
 
I am not hoping for anything - and I would certainly never wish for SWA's demise - it won't happen. I have many friends there. You need to remove emotion from the equation.

I am refering to the changing competitive environment and how that can impact SWA and the other LCCs going forward - get it? Do you disagree with my points about increasing competition and reduced margins going forward? I'd love to hear a counter argument if someone could articulate one - but I highly doubt it. I'm no expert but I'd love to hear other opinions.

I was a part of this industry at one point too and I watch it closely because I still have many friends flying for all of the major carriers.

I'm to old to worry about it. I just fly the plane and let the other guys make the big decisions. Do you keep yourself up at night wondering about this stuff?
 
http://www.forbes.com/2007/05/30/mc...ity-cx_cg_0530markets10.html?partner=yahootix

How much longer will these cool guys, be cool guys? All the boasting and rash comments on this forum. Every dog.....

We need all the good paying airlines to do well. It doesn't do anyone any good to gloat if swa finds itself having a hard time. I admit, many swa guys seem to not be so modest... but was it any different at United or AA? I was at TWA, and they were a humble group (for obvious reasons). It would be nice if we could just appreciate what we have and wish the best for the others. We don't need to see VA or Skybus redefining the industry... but hopefully swa people realize that they aren't totally safe, and there is no reason to gloat about the new contracts at nwa or Delta... as I had one capt do to me when jumpseating... We only do well if we see our counterparts at other good airlines doing well.
 
It's called "market share." Southwest will fly a route (even if they lose money on it) just to secure market share. Once they attract and establish a customer base on that route with extremely low fares, they'll start raising the fares enough to make a profit. This strategy is talked about in the book, "Nuts." That article was one person's opinion. I'm sure Gary Kelly and Southwest management know what they're doing!

The book "NUTS" said we specifically avoid expanding solely to grab market share. Granted our business plan today has changed, and im not saying that doesnt happen now (SFO?). Just wanted to point out what the book really said.
 
You forgot the Virgin America pilots. Likewise, they will also "set the standard." Tool.[/quote]

Why don't you re-read what I wrote Jacka$$. I specifically referred to VA's flight attendants and the in-flight entertainment vs. SWA's limited offerings. I mentioned nothing about the pilots - we are all aware of how low wages will negatively impact the profession. Check it out: http://www.virginamerica.com/difference/

You can't tell me SWA can compete with this product on overlapping routes if the prices are similar - especially on longer routes.

Jonjuan, you need to focus on what we are discussing - we are looking at the changing competitive environment - get it? Again, name calling and personal attacks are not great substitutes for logical arguments. This is a discussion board and I'd love to hear some counterpoints or people who don't believe SWA can be impacted by the rising LCC storm. Sometimes the truth hurts.
 
Six- You have to realize that SWA HAS BEEN competing with this product for some time now. I will agree that this is an ever-changing and much more competitive landscape. And I also agree that SWA needs to be able and willing to adapt. But for you to say that "NOBODY LIKES" that cattle call boarding process, or the FA's jokes, or the SWA product in general is a bit excessive. Ticket prices are all pretty much the same these days, and in many markets, SWA is not the cheapest way to get there. Yet SWA carries more pax than anyone, and with consistently industry leading customer satisfaction. Hard to argue that "NOBODY LIKES IT".
 
On Your Six,

As a former Netjets pilot, I will tell you that rich people will NOT "throw their money" at will. In fact, many of them are the cheapest a-holes out there. Rich people fly Netjets at any cost because the current perception is Netjets the safest and most reliable corporate airline. If that perception ever changes, Netjets will fail the next day. Nothing is written in stone, even Netjets, my friend. In fact, Netjets has some major flaws, such as most of their profits are from selling new shares - what happens when their growth flattens (and for more than just 18 months, like it did in '04)?

My favorite line from that article:
Instead of emulating the corrective steps taken by Delta Air Lines (nyse: DAL - news - people ) and AMR (nyse: AMR - news - people )'s American Airlines, Southwest's mangement simply implemented “modest cost-cutting” and other minor measures, he said.

Classic.
 
The only thing worse than airline executives talking about airline economics, is airline pilots talking about airline economics.
 
Six- You have to realize that SWA HAS BEEN competing with this product for some time now. I will agree that this is an ever-changing and much more competitive landscape. And I also agree that SWA needs to be able and willing to adapt. But for you to say that "NOBODY LIKES" that cattle call boarding process, or the FA's jokes, or the SWA product in general is a bit excessive. Ticket prices are all pretty much the same these days, and in many markets, SWA is not the cheapest way to get there. Yet SWA carries more pax than anyone, and with consistently industry leading customer satisfaction. Hard to argue that "NOBODY LIKES IT".

Skyboy,

SWA has never had to compete with a better product at a similar price point on competing routes. That's the point. The LCCs are scheduled to receive a huge number of airplanes in the next year or two (Air Tran has incoming 700s and Jet Blue will continue to add A320s/E190s while Skybus and VA increase their fleet sizes) and they will look for profitable routes to target. If SWA is profiting on certain routes, these other LCCs could enter those markets to capture a piece. It's bound to happen and you are already seeing competition heating up at MDW, FLL, MCO, DEN and shortly SFO. People put up with SWA because there haven't been many choices at the low price point up until now. Sure, SWA has a loyalty program, but it does not have a great international tie-up like other carriers. Up until now there really haven't been any non-Legacy choices. Given the option and travel flexibility, I'd much rather fly Jet Blue from LGB-IAD than SWA from LAX-BWI because a 5 hour flight on a crowded 700 (with a crap seat because I was in the last 30 boarding numbers) with no IFE is not a good option... Most people would agree - regardless of whether they like the SWA FA jokes or not.

Give me a break about the cattle-car boarding. Do you really like not knowing whether you will get a preferred seat or not? Really? You don't care. I bet 95% of current SWA passengers would prefer assigned seating. I actually know people who avoid SWA specifically because of that reason - if they can find a comparable fare they will select the other choice because of the anxiety created by the cattle-car boarding. Sounds funny but that's the case. SWA's lack of entertainment options on their newer transcon 737-700 flights is also a negative with other carriers providing a lot more for comparable fares.

Another big issue (as I stated previously if you read my original post) is that the Legacies are putting more E170s/CR9s and E190s into the mix at lower operating costs. I would rather fly on a USAirways E170 than a SWA 737-300/700 because the reserved seats are far more comfortable. Obviously this is not good for the pilot profession (we want more high-paying jobs), but it will impact the competitive environment. Delta is using Shuttle E170s to directly compete with Air Tran out of ATL (note ATL-MDW flights for example). Expect more use of these airplanes going forward to better match LCC cost levels.

The environment is changing and we can either ignore it or adapt. Sounds like a lot of people on this board are oblivious or they simply can debate effectively.
 
Give me a break about the cattle-car boarding. Do you really like not knowing whether you will get a preferred seat or not? Really? You don't care. I bet 95% of current SWA passengers would prefer assigned seating. I actually know people who avoid SWA specifically because of that reason - if they can find a comparable fare they will select the other choice because of the anxiety created by the cattle-car boarding. Sounds funny but that's the case. SWA's lack of entertainment options on their newer transcon 737-700 flights is also a negative with other carriers providing a lot more for comparable fares.

SWA did a VERY intensive study about assigned seating out of SAN. The pax overwhelmingly voted for NO assigned seating. So, I guess you are wrong in that respect. Most SWA pax actually prefer they way it is done now.

As far inflight entertainment, until they can get a 15% ROI it aint going to happen. People still are not willing to pay more for TV's and XM radio. SWA has studied it indepth and has the data. Until they can get 15% ROI for it, they aint buying it.
 

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