Really CAL vs DAL

[On Your Six]

I somewhat agree with your sentiments here.

First, this guy was in his 40s and felt there were just too many pilots in front of him to stand in the way of an upgrade before age 56-58... plus he said he would never upgrade on anything larger than a 737.

Second, I have been to and lived in DXB as well. I agree, the 115+ degree wx during the summer months can be brutal.

Last, while the pay at EK sucks, their net take home is usually more than ours since they 1) don't pay taxes 2) don't pay for housing 3) don't pay for schooling (lots of kids can make this expensive) 4) Shower crew with a host of other benefits. So while the pay is low there the net take home and lifestyle is pretty much the same here... save the fact that their in the Middle East.... then again, with PC taking over our society and culture, we're living in a jail of sorts ourselves these days. But that's another thread.

One more thing, while Sheik Maktoum controls EK and can change things, the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. By contrast, another price war decimating our business here in America is considerably more likely to happen. Further to this, with Open Skies, Foreign Ownership and age 65 now given up by ALPA and the democrats, our business is going to be nothing but a rough ride for the next 10 years here in America. EK, by contrast, is insulated from all this.[/quote]





It's true that this business has changed and may continue to change. That being said, airlines like CAL and DAL are diversifying their flying by adding more international routes which will be less competitive and improve margins (at least help to compensate for lower margins in the US). If anything, I would say airlines like SWA and JetBlue are in danger given their inability to adequately hedge fuel costs (that impacts everyone but they don't have international to compensate) and the increased proliferation of LCCs - both Skybus and Virgin America may not last long but they could inflict damage on margins if they compete in similar markets. Where will AirTran put its 75 737-700s it has on order? What about JetBlue's 60+ A320s/E190s? What about Spirit's 30+ A319s? At least Spirit is diversifying to more Latin American destinations as a way to reduce domestic exposure...

Regardless of the tax-free pay package and benefits at Emirates, you are still living in a foreign country and you lose any legal rights you would be afforded in the US. On top of that, your family (if he has one) has to live in Dubai and be located far away from friends and grandparents, etc. Sure, you get to fly shiny 777s - who wouldn't want that? However, at Delta, there are numerous open slots for 767-300/400 positions that can take you to Europe and Africa if you really want that flying. Plus, if he really wanted to see Dubai, he could have stuck it out as an FO and bid the 777 which serves Dubai. What's wrong with getting some FO time in the 777 at Delta and then bidding the 737-800 or 757/767 seniority permitting later? That way, you fly the 777, you hit all the glamorous destinations and you get to live in the States. After 11 years at Delta, I am sure he could have bid 777 FO or at least a senior 767ER FO position. With potential E190s coming on line in the next year or two, he would have easily had a Capt slot had he wanted one.

In the end, you make decisions and you have to live with them. Hopefully things will work out for the ex-Delta pilot. For those considering US airlines, Delta and CAL are both good choices. Personally, if I were looking to return to 121 flying, I would definitely focus my efforts on Delta which has some very strong growth prospects going forward now that the bankruptcy has been completely successfully and the decks cleared (reduced debt, increased cash, expanding high-margin international route network, new aircraft ordered or about to be ordered - that 787 will be very nice)...

 

[Furloughed80]

It's real hard to ignore the starting pay and benefits EK offers F/Os. If I am not mistaken, is it about $70,000? That is tax free and they provide you with housing, all medical benefits paid for, and they pay a lot of your bills (water, electric, etc.) When you factor all that in, does it not put you close to the $100,000 mark. I am not saying EK is the way to go, but I can understand pilots making the jump from US legacies. How long would it take for an F/O at CAL or DAL to bring home that kind of money?

 

[On Your Six]

It's real hard to ignore the starting pay and benefits EK offers F/Os. If I am not mistaken, is it about $70,000? That is tax free and they provide you with housing, all medical benefits paid for, and they pay a lot of your bills (water, electric, etc.) When you factor all that in, does it not put you close to the $100,000 mark. I am not saying EK is the way to go, but I can understand pilots making the jump from US legacies. How long would it take for an F/O at CAL or DAL to bring home that kind of money?

It will take longer to make that money at CAL than it would at DAL. CAL's starting salary is ridiculously low (its lack of medical benefits for the first 6 months is an insult to hard working employees with families). I have been told that you can make around $70K in your 2nd or 3rd year at DAL - I don't know for sure. What I do know is that starting pay at Emirates also includes living in Dubai and enduring the disrespect and lack of personal freedoms inherent in that region. Sure, you make some good tax-free money but you are living in an expensive sand pit surrounded by people who hate your home country's foreign policy. Sure, I'd rather make a little less working for a growing US legacy and living in the States. Check out the exodus from Emirates on www.pprune.org (Middle East section) if you are interested - you will change your mind.

You need to look at the long term - do you really want to spend the rest of your career in the Middle East? You can visit the Middle East (Tel Aviv, Dubai and maybe Cairo in the near future) if you fly for Delta and you really need to visit that part of the world.

 

[pkober]

Talk it over with your family. Make a decision and don't let any one on flightinfo.com sway you.

Good Luck.

 

[johnsonrod]

One way to look at it is decide whether you want to fly out of EWR or LGA. Newhires at CAL tend to be based out of EWR most of the time and a lot of newhire DAL pilots are flying the MD88 out of LGA or the 767ER out of JFK.

The lack of medical benefits during the first 6 months of employment at CAL is pretty lame........

 

[densoo]

On the subject of our 737's our 800,900's pay the same as the 757 and the those aircraft will be more then half our 737 fleet so the money is there on the 737.

They pay a 757 pilot the same as the pay a 737 pilot.

And this is a positive for CAL?

How about they pay a -800/900 pilot more than a -300/500/700 pilot, and then pay a 757 pilot more than a -800/900 pilot?

 

[ACWild]

They pay a 757 pilot the same as the pay a 737 pilot.

And this is a positive for CAL?

How about they pay a -800/900 pilot more than a -300/500/700 pilot, and then pay a 757 pilot more than a -800/900 pilot?

I suspect that this pay arrangement was made so that the senior pilots who want to do domestic have the option to do so without going on a lower payscale. At least that's my guess. And no, I'm not defending it. I think it's a well-beaten point that the CAL contract has many shortcomings.

 

[COpilot]

They pay a 757 pilot the same as the pay a 737 pilot.

And this is a positive for CAL?

How about they pay a -800/900 pilot more than a -300/500/700 pilot, and then pay a 757 pilot more than a -800/900 pilot?

"Yeah" and DL pays a B767 the same as the B757!

We pay the 76 more,,, so what's your point? Both airlines pay the same to two different size airplanes; you call that a positive for DL?

How about they pay a B767-200 (when they had them) and the -300 pilot more than a B757-200?

 

[Heavy Set]

"Yeah" and DL pays a B767 the same as the B757!

We pay the 76 more,,, so what's your point? Both airlines pay the same to two different size airplanes; you call that a positive for DL?

How about they pay a B767-200 (when they had them) and the -300 pilot more than a B757-200?

I thought the Delta pilots brought the 757 wages up to the 767 wages? That would be good, right? They also have more 757s and 767s than Continental, and have orders for more widebodies too. Looking at Airlinepilotcentral.com the pay rates for Delta are much better than Cal's, there are no scabs, and the bases are better. Easy choice.

 

[COpilot]

I thought the Delta pilots brought the 757 wages up to the 767 wages? That would be good, right? They also have more 757s and 767s than Continental, and have orders for more widebodies too. Looking at Airlinepilotcentral.com the pay rates for Delta are much better than Cal's, there are no scabs, and the bases are better. Easy choice.

What are you reading at that website? On order, we have 25 B787's ordered, as a percent, how does DL have more than coming?

CAL B757 12yr CA $163, B767-200 $186

DAL B75/B76 12yr CA $158

Read my previous, I told this person I too would choose DL.

 

[EMBpilot]

Anyone esle heard rumor that CAL bumped 787 order to 60?

 

[Heavy Set]

What are you reading at that website? On order, we have 25 B787's ordered, as a percent, how does DL have more than coming?

CAL B757 12yr CA $163, B767-200 $186

DAL B75/B76 12yr CA $158

Read my previous, I told this person I too would choose DL.

From what my friends over there are HEARING, (rumor) there are some ordered via a lessor, and that they will be coming sooner than later. I have no idea how many would come, or when. Apparently there are also many 777s coming in the next few years (10-15), besides the already know 757ERs (15), 737-700s (15), and undetermined 100 seat plane, and MD90s being negotiated for with a Chinese carrier. A lot of that is rumor, but from interesting sources according to them. I guess it may or may not be true, so we'll see. Also, those pay rates are great at CAL, but unfortunately thanks to the age 65 rule coming and now the lack of retirements that will occur at CAL, it is unlikely anyone new will see those rates on the 756 for awhile. I think you are right telling that person to choose DL, since there seems to be some variety in their bases and maybe a better chance to move upwards if all of this supposed Delta expansion becomes true. The 1-4 year rates on that website favor Delta by far, and that is what any newhire should probably look at, since 12 year 756 rates seem a bit far off for everyone now.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

I thought the Delta pilots brought the 757 wages up to the 767 wages? That would be good, right? They also have more 757s and 767s than Continental, and have orders for more widebodies too. Looking at Airlinepilotcentral.com the pay rates for Delta are much better than Cal's, there are no scabs, and the bases are better. Easy choice.

I had hear that Delta brought the 757 wages up to the 767 wages argument too. If it was true, then why are the 737-800 wages so close to the 767 wages?

 

[Scrapdog]

Whatever you do take the General's advice with a grain of salt...his view of his own company versus everyone elses is ALWAYS highly exxagerated. He is by far the happiest Delta pilot on property...

Puddle - I couldn't have said it better myself. If you look at the trend of G Lee's posts, this guy has a love fest over DAL. It's actually quite comical reading some of his data! Dude, airline flying is NOT that fun, bottom line...G Lee makes it sound like working at DAL is like being Peter North's body double in Debbie Does Dallas. Give me a frickin break! LOL

OK, back to the question at hand. I've been at CAL for 6 months (currently on mil leave) and overall it's a good job. Young group of FO's and FA's (they've been hiring steady for over more than a year) and I think that contributes well to a younger, more energetic culture. Our contract in '08 should be pretty strong with a nice raise as CAL has been making money every quarter for the last 4 or 5 (can't say that at DAL for sure). DAL has NOT been hiring steadily obviously and has a much older, more disgruntled culture. DAL is kind of like an old British war ship...pretty intimidating from the outside but is so big and bulky it can't manuever worth a sh*t. Finally they're starting to cut some of the fat off their ridiculous business model they've had for the last few years.

I've got 3 close buds in my unit that fly for DAL. Two can't stand it and one is neutral with it at best. And these guys were about to walk away from the military and head full time for DAL on Sept 10, 2001 because they pay and culture were so good. Wow, that sure has changed huh? Overall airline flying is a job, period. The flying is far from "a blast" and it's not mentally challenging to say the least - but I can say that overall CAL is a good company and will continue to be strong (barring any terrorist bullsh*t) for years to come.

 

[Scrapdog]

One way to look at it is decide whether you want to fly out of EWR or LGA. Newhires at CAL tend to be based out of EWR most of the time and a lot of newhire DAL pilots are flying the MD88 out of LGA or the 767ER out of JFK.

The lack of medical benefits during the first 6 months of employment at CAL is pretty lame........

Honestly, what's pretty lame is not being able to see past the first 6 months of your career and look at the benefits at the 10, 20, and 30 year mark down the road. Looking at the first 6 months of a 30 year career (if say you're 30 when you get hired) are ridiculous. 6 months of a 30 year career is approx 1.7 percent of your entire career...hardly looking long term at retirements, hiring, QOL, etc...

Again, CAL is strong and hiring is good and will continue for the foreseeable future (barring any terrorist garbage). At year 10 you'll be a captain at CAL making 150K to 200K a year (depending on how strong our '08 contract comes out). When you retire at 60 (or 65, whatever...), you'll be a multi-millionaire with a lot of good benefits. For the record, I do think the 6 months without insurance is horsesh*t, but for god's sakes - look outside the box and think long term, thinking 6 months down the road is a show stopper on a long career is extremely sophmoric.

 

[johnsonrod]

Honestly, what's pretty lame is not being able to see past the first 6 months of your career and look at the benefits at the 10, 20, and 30 year mark down the road. Looking at the first 6 months of a 30 year career (if say you're 30 when you get hired) are ridiculous. 6 months of a 30 year career is approx 1.7 percent of your entire career...hardly looking long term at retirements, hiring, QOL, etc...

Again, CAL is strong and hiring is good and will continue for the foreseeable future (barring any terrorist garbage). At year 10 you'll be a captain at CAL making 150K to 200K a year (depending on how strong our '08 contract comes out). When you retire at 60 (or 65, whatever...), you'll be a multi-millionaire with a lot of good benefits. For the record, I do think the 6 months without insurance is horsesh*t, but for god's sakes - look outside the box and think long term, thinking 6 months down the road is a show stopper on a long career is extremely sophmoric.

Thanks Maverick. The 6-month lack of benefits is an anomoly - no other legacy carrier screws its pilots like that. Then why do it? CAL does it because it knows that eager COEX or military pilots will still apply and take it. DAL doesn't screw its newhires (many with families) that way... Does CAL require new executives to take a 6 month benefits hiatus at the beginning of their career? I bet not. Then why screw the pilots? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.....

 

[Heavy Set]

Puddle - I couldn't have said it better myself. If you look at the trend of G Lee's posts, this guy has a love fest over DAL. It's actually quite comical reading some of his data! Dude, airline flying is NOT that fun, bottom line...G Lee makes it sound like working at DAL is like being Peter North's body double in Debbie Does Dallas. Give me a frickin break! LOL

OK, back to the question at hand. I've been at CAL for 6 months (currently on mil leave) and overall it's a good job. Young group of FO's and FA's (they've been hiring steady for over more than a year) and I think that contributes well to a younger, more energetic culture. Our contract in '08 should be pretty strong with a nice raise as CAL has been making money every quarter for the last 4 or 5 (can't say that at DAL for sure). DAL has NOT been hiring steadily obviously and has a much older, more disgruntled culture. DAL is kind of like an old British war ship...pretty intimidating from the outside but is so big and bulky it can't manuever worth a sh*t. Finally they're starting to cut some of the fat off their ridiculous business model they've had for the last few years.

I've got 3 close buds in my unit that fly for DAL. Two can't stand it and one is neutral with it at best. And these guys were about to walk away from the military and head full time for DAL on Sept 10, 2001 because they pay and culture were so good. Wow, that sure has changed huh? Overall airline flying is a job, period. The flying is far from "a blast" and it's not mentally challenging to say the least - but I can say that overall CAL is a good company and will continue to be strong (barring any terrorist bullsh*t) for years to come.

Maybe Gen Lee does enjoy his job, is that so bad? You love CAL so much you go out on Military leave when you can. Looks like you chose Iraq over EWR. Good choice.

My friends at Delta think there is real change ahead, primarily because there has been a change in management and a cleaning of the house so to speak. BK was probably tough on them, but in the end it has made them stronger. That bulky British ship you wrote about has turned into a lean and fast frigate.

CAL is mainly an East Coast airline, and any new upgrades will generally only be available in EWR or maybe CLE, which is supposed to double in size. Does anyone really want to live or be based at either of those two holes? Well then, take the alternative of beautiful Houston. Or, go be lonely in Guam. Your kids may remember you when you come back, or you can take them over there and they could lose contact with their friends here in the states, and any family members left over here too. That's ok, a few years away on an island isn't too bad, look at how much fun people have on "Survivor". Oh, it's not that bad? How much is gas there? Then your kids and wife will be excited to move to EWR, CLE, or steamy IAH. Sounds like a wonderful choice. But, you could also commute on E145s the rest of your life from somewhere close to one of those bases. Those Rjs are never full.


Overall, he should chose the airline that will allow him to live where he wants to live. If it is on the East Coast, then maybe CAL could be for him, even though Delta is building up their JFK base with new 757ERs, and Atlanta is always an option too, with more options on airplanes than any base out there. Delta also has some West Coast bases, but nobody wants to based out there. According to you it is "just a job." Go get um Maverick.

 

[ACWild]

CAL is mainly an East Coast airline, and any new upgrades will generally only be available in EWR or maybe CLE, which is supposed to double in size. Does anyone really want to live or be based at either of those two holes?

Newark is where the airport is, but you don't need to live there. I live near Princeton which is about 35 miles out. A heck of a lot of our pilots live in Allentown PA. EWR is a hole, but I don't know of any pilots who live there. There, I've said my piece... Continue with the CAL bashing...

 

[Heavy Set]

Newark is where the airport is, but you don't need to live there. I live near Princeton which is about 35 miles out. A heck of a lot of our pilots live in Allentown PA. EWR is a hole, but I don't know of any pilots who live there. There, I've said my piece... Continue with the CAL bashing...

I was responding to the Delta bashing by Maverick. I stated that the pilot in question should choose depending where he wants to eventually live. He would have more choices at Delta, which is the point. If he wants to live in Allentown or Princeton, then maybe he should consider CAL. And, do any reserve pilots have crashpads in EWR? Will those reserve pilots remain reserve pilots for awhile if the Age 65 thing is approved? Something to think about, especially with CAL. The scheduled retirements may grind to a hault there.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Anyone esle heard rumor that CAL bumped 787 order to 60?

It is true according to the VP of FLT OPS reported on his vm a few months ago. I was also told the same personally last week from the head of flt standards and training.

How many of these options will CAL actually get your guess is as good as mine.