Really CAL vs DAL

[Flopgut]

Does DAL have PBS? That's the reason these CAL Captain positions are going so junior I think. I would perhaps add that to the equation.

The CAL guys aren't going to retire IMHO. They'll go to LTD first and we all fund that.

I guess the only thing I would really want to verbalize to you Cougar is (and this is looking at the big picture over many decades): When things get tough in this business (and they do), CAL will go to their employees first and they will go deep. Employees are the shock absorber at CAL. Conversely, when things are good they are incredibly stingy with the regular employees. I'm almost half way up the list and I want to see us change first year pay like we we're dragging these guys out of a fire! I'm also glad we protected the 100% lump sum, but that being said, these potential CAL retirees don't want to go. There's a reason DAL doesn't have a pilot under 50. Yes, they had more career earnings, but they are also understood the situation. Senior CAL pilots will be slow to grasp things and will pattern mgt in hitting up their fellow employees when they need a break. (We just sent a CAL pilot to run ALPA and look what he's doing). I don't know...It seems like the DAL pilots have shown a lot more savvy over the years. In twenty five years you'll know for sure what was the best choice.

 

[whymeworry?]

My best friend flys for DAL. I have compared both contracts and theirs is better than ours, hands down. There is simply no comparison.

1) Better bases as DAL, more AC choices, more WB flying.

2) SLOW upgrade at DAL but CAL has hired 1200 pilots in the past 18 months so it's not like you're getting on at the beginning of the boom at CAL. Lots of YOUNG pilots hired at CAL during this time (I'm talking 21-27 yr olds). So you'll be behind all these pilots.

3) DAL's reserve work rules and pay are almost a sole reason to go there. Our rsv rules are a frigging joke.

4) Age 65 will mute the CAL upgrade argument for a while but that will also mean a 15 year upgrade at DAL, will it not? I have heard this from some recent DAL guys who quit.

5) DALs int'l expansion will be limited by competition and the 787. i.e., they can't grow forever. Once expansion stops you will sit for a long time.

6) DAL has two west coast bases (SLC/ LAX) CAL will never have any WC presence. You will have to accept living in the EWR area if you want to enjoy your career because that's where all the growth and movement is.

Given the fact that you're getting hired at the mid-point of a boom at CAL, I would go for DAL but expect to fly right seat for 10-15 yrs.

FWIW, I ran into a EK 777 FO at the hotel in GLA the other day. He left DAL after 11 years there. What does that tell you? He told me he would probably never see anything larger than 737 captain at DAL, he will be a 777 captain at EK within 2 yrs. My bud at ANA Japan (B767 cargo) tells me there are 5 DAL drivers there now... all left after 10+ yrs at DAL. Granted, they left during the BK process when it was all gloom and doom but they have no regrets and are making a lot of money now.

Good Luck with your decision. At a VERY minimum.... go to DAL first and review again when your CAL class date comes up (don't feel guilty about leaving any carrier.... they have no problem furloughing with no notice, it goes both ways)

 

[densoo]

...compared both contracts and theirs is better than ours, hands down. There is simply no comparison.

3) DAL's reserve work rules and pay are almost a sole reason to go there. Our rsv rules are a frigging joke.

In spades.

 

[livethedream]

15 years in the right seat??? that's a long time

 

[737 Pylt]

15 years in the right seat??? that's a long time

I know TWA pilots that spent 17 years on the panel.....
THAT'S a long time!

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

FWIW, I ran into a EK 777 FO at the hotel in GLA the other day. He left DAL after 11 years there. What does that tell you? He told me he would probably never see anything larger than 737 captain at DAL, he will be a 777 captain at EK within 2 yrs. My bud at ANA Japan (B767 cargo) tells me there are 5 DAL drivers there now... all left after 10+ yrs at DAL. Granted, they left during the BK process when it was all gloom and doom but they have no regrets and are making a lot of money now.

I'm not doubting you, but how exactly do these pilots make so much more money than Delta pilots? When I do the math I come up breaking even on a move from my RJ Capt. slot, plus per diem. Per diem is needed to cover your expenses on the road, particularly in cities that are expensive to overnight in. Further, a move half way around the globe is going to whack whatever income your spouse brings in. Can someone explain this to me. I can't see leaving ASA for an Asia job, much less Delta.

As Delta does their International expansion the staffing for these aircraft requiring relief crews is pretty large. One 777 the way Delta operates theirs probably requires, what, 15+ crews, instead of the 10 to 11 for shorter legged aircraft?

If you look around CAL's fleet, there are mostly 737's. There is nothing wrong with a 737, but to make any money at CAL you have to get on other equipment and there is not a lot of other equipment there. Delta's fleet will be "mostly" 757's before long. Seems like a better choice.

Also, from an economics standpoint you have to think Delta is going to do something to rationalize the DCI system. Comair's 900's was part of the equation. What about the 100 seater? If Delta gets is, it will probably go very junior due to the pay. Delta Captain could go junior on it as well.

I would be very happy at DAL, less so at CAL and Asia is a great place to visit with pass benefits from either carrier.

 

[catIIIc]

I'm not doubting you, but how exactly do these pilots make so much more money than Delta pilots? When I do the math I come up breaking even on a move from my RJ Capt. slot, plus per diem. Per diem is needed to cover your expenses on the road, particularly in cities that are expensive to overnight in. Further, a move half way around the globe is going to whack whatever income your spouse brings in. Can someone explain this to me. I can't see leaving ASA for an Asia job, much less Delta.

As Delta does their International expansion the staffing for these aircraft requiring relief crews is pretty large. One 777 the way Delta operates theirs probably requires, what, 15+ crews, instead of the 10 to 11 for shorter legged aircraft?

If you look around CAL's fleet, there are mostly 737's. There is nothing wrong with a 737, but to make any money at CAL you have to get on other equipment and there is not a lot of other equipment there. Delta's fleet will be "mostly" 757's before long. Seems like a better choice.

Also, from an economics standpoint you have to think Delta is going to do something to rationalize the DCI system. Comair's 900's was part of the equation. What about the 100 seater? If Delta gets is, it will probably go very junior due to the pay. Delta Captain could go junior on it as well.

I would be very happy at DAL, less so at CAL and Asia is a great place to visit with pass benefits from either carrier.

On the subject of our 737's our 800,900's pay the same as the 757 and the those aircraft will be more then half our 737 fleet so the money is there on the 737.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Where do you wat to live, IAH or ATL. As for the rest of the bases, I think it would be dangerous to base a 30 year decision on cities where the company is not headquartered. (It is easier to close a base than it is to move a headquarters) Anyhow, contracts change. This is what makes it so hard to compare them directly. I would look at the past 10-20 years of contracts and compare them. I believe DAL has a definite advantage once making that comparison.

One other requirement I have is to make a financial analysis of each company. Approach this as an unbiased (hard to do I know) investor. Try to determine which company you would buy. Pay a lot of attention to upper management: how long on the job, how much experience, successful decisions in the past and how they worked out. Works for Warren Buffet.

Other than that, consider yourself very fortunate to have the choice...good luck.

 

[On Your Six]

My best friend flys for DAL. I have compared both contracts and theirs is better than ours, hands down. There is simply no comparison.

1) Better bases as DAL, more AC choices, more WB flying.

2) SLOW upgrade at DAL but CAL has hired 1200 pilots in the past 18 months so it's not like you're getting on at the beginning of the boom at CAL. Lots of YOUNG pilots hired at CAL during this time (I'm talking 21-27 yr olds). So you'll be behind all these pilots.

3) DAL's reserve work rules and pay are almost a sole reason to go there. Our rsv rules are a frigging joke.

4) Age 65 will mute the CAL upgrade argument for a while but that will also mean a 15 year upgrade at DAL, will it not? I have heard this from some recent DAL guys who quit.

5) DALs int'l expansion will be limited by competition and the 787. i.e., they can't grow forever. Once expansion stops you will sit for a long time.

6) DAL has two west coast bases (SLC/ LAX) CAL will never have any WC presence. You will have to accept living in the EWR area if you want to enjoy your career because that's where all the growth and movement is.

Given the fact that you're getting hired at the mid-point of a boom at CAL, I would go for DAL but expect to fly right seat for 10-15 yrs.

FWIW, I ran into a EK 777 FO at the hotel in GLA the other day. He left DAL after 11 years there. What does that tell you? He told me he would probably never see anything larger than 737 captain at DAL, he will be a 777 captain at EK within 2 yrs. My bud at ANA Japan (B767 cargo) tells me there are 5 DAL drivers there now... all left after 10+ yrs at DAL. Granted, they left during the BK process when it was all gloom and doom but they have no regrets and are making a lot of money now.

Good Luck with your decision. At a VERY minimum.... go to DAL first and review again when your CAL class date comes up (don't feel guilty about leaving any carrier.... they have no problem furloughing with no notice, it goes both ways)

First, a 15 year upgrade is a real stretch. There are some very strong rumors suggesting that DAL will look for a 100-seater in the very near future - not just talk this time. The E190 is rumored to be the front-runner but you never know. As you might recall, upgrades at Delta Express (the 737-200 operation run out of Orlando years ago) were 2-4 years total because of the B-scale and lower pay that nobody senior wanted. The point is that potential E190s would also have lower pay than other types and would then attract people fixated on the left seat. Yes, they could upgrade faster to the E190, 737-600 or whatever they get. The 15 year estimate is based on the current fleet mix which will very likely change soon.

With regard to people who actually quit Delta, I am sure they are kicking themselves now... They left during the doom and gloom period before any changes were made. Have they seen how much debt was cleared or renegotiated through the end of bankruptcy? Delta is now the strongest legacy carrier out there in terms of balance sheet. Many pilots left before the USAirways merger attempt that ultimately led to all of the groups coming together to "fight a common enemy." There is less in-fighting now from what I have heard (although that probably won't last very long).

As far as going to Emirates - wow, what a big mistake in my opinion. The Dubai gov't controls that airline and can change any terms ON A WHIM. As a pilot there you have zero recourse. You even have to contact the gov't if you want to leave the country on vacation. Sound great to you? Dubai is growing fast and the expenses will continue to grow considerably as more money pours into that desert pit. I've been there - it's an impressive spectacle until you see how little you make and how dangerous the driving can be (very dangerous highways). It is also super-hot there all the time - I'll pass on 115F for weeks and months on end - I can't play golf in that weather.

Great that that guy gets to fly an Emirates 777 for relatively low wages and with a pilot group that has no control. Did you know there is a major exodus of pilots from Emirates for a wide variety of reasons? Please check www.pprune.org and read all about it in the Middle East forum. These ex-Delta guys are kicking themselves I am sure - or at least they will in a few years when they see what they are missing back at Delta and in the States. Emirates is not a good option over the long term - PERIOD. Those guys made a big mistake in my opinion.

Delta will be hiring 500 pilots this year and you get full benefits from day one. If you want to get in on the ground floor and get 400 pilots behind you, I'd apply. Expect more 777s, 787s, wingletted 737-700s and potentially E190s in the future. And, you don't have to contact the government if you want to take a vacation and leave the area....

 

[whymeworry?]

As far as going to Emirates - wow, what a big mistake in my opinion. The Dubai gov't controls that airline and can change any terms ON A WHIM. As a pilot there you have zero recourse. You even have to contact the gov't if you want to leave the country on vacation. Sound great to you? Dubai is growing fast and the expenses will continue to grow considerably as more money pours into that desert pit. I've been there - it's an impressive spectacle until you see how little you make and how dangerous the driving can be (very dangerous highways). It is also super-hot there all the time - I'll pass on 115F for weeks and months on end - I can't play golf in that weather.

Great that that guy gets to fly an Emirates 777 for relatively low wages and with a pilot group that has no control. Did you know there is a major exodus of pilots from Emirates for a wide variety of reasons? Please check www.pprune.org and read all about it in the Middle East forum. These ex-Delta guys are kicking themselves I am sure - or at least they will in a few years when they see what they are missing back at Delta and in the States. Emirates is not a good option over the long term - PERIOD. Those guys made a big mistake in my opinion.

quote]

I somewhat agree with your sentiments here.

First, this guy was in his 40s and felt there were just too many pilots in front of him to stand in the way of an upgrade before age 56-58... plus he said he would never upgrade on anything larger than a 737.

Second, I have been to and lived in DXB as well. I agree, the 115+ degree wx during the summer months can be brutal.

Last, while the pay at EK sucks, their net take home is usually more than ours since they 1) don't pay taxes 2) don't pay for housing 3) don't pay for schooling (lots of kids can make this expensive) 4) Shower crew with a host of other benefits. So while the pay is low there the net take home and lifestyle is pretty much the same here... save the fact that their in the Middle East.... then again, with PC taking over our society and culture, we're living in a jail of sorts ourselves these days. But that's another thread.

One more thing, while Sheik Maktoum controls EK and can change things, the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. By contrast, another price war decimating our business here in America is considerably more likely to happen. Further to this, with Open Skies, Foreign Ownership and age 65 now given up by ALPA and the democrats, our business is going to be nothing but a rough ride for the next 10 years here in America. EK, by contrast, is insulated from all this.

 

[On Your Six]

I somewhat agree with your sentiments here.

First, this guy was in his 40s and felt there were just too many pilots in front of him to stand in the way of an upgrade before age 56-58... plus he said he would never upgrade on anything larger than a 737.

Second, I have been to and lived in DXB as well. I agree, the 115+ degree wx during the summer months can be brutal.

Last, while the pay at EK sucks, their net take home is usually more than ours since they 1) don't pay taxes 2) don't pay for housing 3) don't pay for schooling (lots of kids can make this expensive) 4) Shower crew with a host of other benefits. So while the pay is low there the net take home and lifestyle is pretty much the same here... save the fact that their in the Middle East.... then again, with PC taking over our society and culture, we're living in a jail of sorts ourselves these days. But that's another thread.

One more thing, while Sheik Maktoum controls EK and can change things, the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. By contrast, another price war decimating our business here in America is considerably more likely to happen. Further to this, with Open Skies, Foreign Ownership and age 65 now given up by ALPA and the democrats, our business is going to be nothing but a rough ride for the next 10 years here in America. EK, by contrast, is insulated from all this.[/quote]





It's true that this business has changed and may continue to change. That being said, airlines like CAL and DAL are diversifying their flying by adding more international routes which will be less competitive and improve margins (at least help to compensate for lower margins in the US). If anything, I would say airlines like SWA and JetBlue are in danger given their inability to adequately hedge fuel costs (that impacts everyone but they don't have international to compensate) and the increased proliferation of LCCs - both Skybus and Virgin America may not last long but they could inflict damage on margins if they compete in similar markets. Where will AirTran put its 75 737-700s it has on order? What about JetBlue's 60+ A320s/E190s? What about Spirit's 30+ A319s? At least Spirit is diversifying to more Latin American destinations as a way to reduce domestic exposure...

Regardless of the tax-free pay package and benefits at Emirates, you are still living in a foreign country and you lose any legal rights you would be afforded in the US. On top of that, your family (if he has one) has to live in Dubai and be located far away from friends and grandparents, etc. Sure, you get to fly shiny 777s - who wouldn't want that? However, at Delta, there are numerous open slots for 767-300/400 positions that can take you to Europe and Africa if you really want that flying. Plus, if he really wanted to see Dubai, he could have stuck it out as an FO and bid the 777 which serves Dubai. What's wrong with getting some FO time in the 777 at Delta and then bidding the 737-800 or 757/767 seniority permitting later? That way, you fly the 777, you hit all the glamorous destinations and you get to live in the States. After 11 years at Delta, I am sure he could have bid 777 FO or at least a senior 767ER FO position. With potential E190s coming on line in the next year or two, he would have easily had a Capt slot had he wanted one.

In the end, you make decisions and you have to live with them. Hopefully things will work out for the ex-Delta pilot. For those considering US airlines, Delta and CAL are both good choices. Personally, if I were looking to return to 121 flying, I would definitely focus my efforts on Delta which has some very strong growth prospects going forward now that the bankruptcy has been completely successfully and the decks cleared (reduced debt, increased cash, expanding high-margin international route network, new aircraft ordered or about to be ordered - that 787 will be very nice)...

 

[Furloughed80]

It's real hard to ignore the starting pay and benefits EK offers F/Os. If I am not mistaken, is it about $70,000? That is tax free and they provide you with housing, all medical benefits paid for, and they pay a lot of your bills (water, electric, etc.) When you factor all that in, does it not put you close to the $100,000 mark. I am not saying EK is the way to go, but I can understand pilots making the jump from US legacies. How long would it take for an F/O at CAL or DAL to bring home that kind of money?

 

[On Your Six]

It's real hard to ignore the starting pay and benefits EK offers F/Os. If I am not mistaken, is it about $70,000? That is tax free and they provide you with housing, all medical benefits paid for, and they pay a lot of your bills (water, electric, etc.) When you factor all that in, does it not put you close to the $100,000 mark. I am not saying EK is the way to go, but I can understand pilots making the jump from US legacies. How long would it take for an F/O at CAL or DAL to bring home that kind of money?

It will take longer to make that money at CAL than it would at DAL. CAL's starting salary is ridiculously low (its lack of medical benefits for the first 6 months is an insult to hard working employees with families). I have been told that you can make around $70K in your 2nd or 3rd year at DAL - I don't know for sure. What I do know is that starting pay at Emirates also includes living in Dubai and enduring the disrespect and lack of personal freedoms inherent in that region. Sure, you make some good tax-free money but you are living in an expensive sand pit surrounded by people who hate your home country's foreign policy. Sure, I'd rather make a little less working for a growing US legacy and living in the States. Check out the exodus from Emirates on www.pprune.org (Middle East section) if you are interested - you will change your mind.

You need to look at the long term - do you really want to spend the rest of your career in the Middle East? You can visit the Middle East (Tel Aviv, Dubai and maybe Cairo in the near future) if you fly for Delta and you really need to visit that part of the world.

 

[pkober]

Talk it over with your family. Make a decision and don't let any one on flightinfo.com sway you.

Good Luck.

 

[johnsonrod]

One way to look at it is decide whether you want to fly out of EWR or LGA. Newhires at CAL tend to be based out of EWR most of the time and a lot of newhire DAL pilots are flying the MD88 out of LGA or the 767ER out of JFK.

The lack of medical benefits during the first 6 months of employment at CAL is pretty lame........