SWA or Delta

[PowerRanger]

Hi!

NWA announced their order for 787s something like 6-12 months ago.

cliff
YIP

Both Northwest and COntinental aren't part of the "big three."

That would belong to American, United and Delta!

 

[Howard Hughes]

O.K., I have job offers from Southwest AND Delta. What a predicament!! For one, I could care less where I'm based; I'll be a commuter for life. Two, Southwest guys aren't reqired to wear hats. I like that a lot about them.

I've done lots of research on both. Seriously, it's gonna be hard to turn down either one of them. I've wanted to be a Delta pilot since I was five years old but times have changed. I never thought I'd ask anyone this question: would you take Southwest over Delta?

Well, Ive done my fair share of flying, cargo to regionals to majors. Got friends spread throughout the industry. In my view the only reason I would go to SWA right this second is for the money. Having said that, mark my words, Delta WILL pay more than SWA ever hopes to in the coming years. Delta rates are bottomed out right now (and SWA's rates relative to the rest of the industry are flying higher than they ever have by a large margin...this wont last) but they will come back up. Maybe SWA will continue to pay more for flying a 73 than Delta but there is no way that if you go to Delta you will make less flying a 787 or 777 than at SWA flying a 737 (although I will give you the temporary increased earnings with the quicker upgrade on a 737 at SWA). Delta projects a 1.4 billion dollar operating profit next year and almost two billion the following year.

Some see hiring on at Delta a risk, citing the 911 spurred bankruptcy and furloughes. It is a risk, and nothing guarentees that Delta will return to king of the mountain, but that may make this the best time of all to go to Delta. When its a sure thing, which I think it will become, everybodies wish list will once again change (ie top three DAL, UPS, FEDex) then it will be a real feeding frenzy and if you arent flying for the blue angels or thunderbirds or something very special on your resume you will be waiting a long time for a chance at the "brass ring" and with that kind of competition the chances for rejection will have moved higher. In other words the offer extended to you from DAL right now might be worth its weight in gold in the not distant future. SWA has been stable for a long time but I see alot of question marks coming up there recently. They are 100 percent domestic. The domestic market has reached its saturation point and now with the likes of Virgin America, SkyBus...etc it will be harder for SWA to do what they used to do with ease when the legacies were charging a whole lot of money for domestic routes. That is not the case anymore.

I can tell you that after flying for more than a few years the idea of domestic only flying bores me to tears. Waking up in South America or Europe on the other hand, exploring a good layover with your family or crew is one of the great perks of being an airline pilot. With Delta's push for international (Asia and beyond along with lots of Europe already) there are going to be alot of really great places to see and IMHO decent money (not as high as it once was, but it will be good) to be made. To each his own though. If I'm a guy looking to do this another 20 to 30 years I could never do SWA, although I think they are a fine company and have some interesting history and have been able to call some of the shots the last few years. Having said that you could do much worse than SWA of course. Food for thought....take it for what its worth.

Another note of interest...a new hire on the property right now at Delta and in the coming months has a decent chance of getting the 767ER out of NY immediately, flying to a lot of beautiful and interesting cities in Europe this year. A friend of mine told me there are several open slots on the current bid because not everyone wants NY, preferring LAX, SLC, and ATL first.

My final advice, go somewhere you will enjoy the flying and figure out a side business that you enjoy. I have a friend at Delta that does just that. He gives away alot of his flying to free up about 20 days a month, has good overall compensation and keeps his foot in flying with ability to fly some really great cutting edge equipment and destinations in the future....really the best of all worlds.

 

[Meiguy]

My final advice, go somewhere you will enjoy the flying and figure out a side business that you enjoy. I have a friend at Delta that does just that. He gives away alot of his flying to free up about 20 days a month, has good overall compensation and keeps his foot in flying with ability to fly some really great cutting edge equipment and destinations in the future....really the best of all worlds.

Great post! I agree with you 100% as well

 

[stooge]

It looks like someone photoshopped Angelina Jolie's chest into a pic of a 15 year old girl.

wait. wait. i can explain. she said she was old enough to be a flight attendant, so it legal right?

... what are we talking about again?

 

[puddlejumper101]

something no one seems to consider...in 20 years who knows what SWA will look like. They might be jumping the pond right next to DAL. No one can predict the future so the decision has to be made on the past and present. Both pay scales will change hundreds of times in 20 years. What's left is culture and bases. I just flew with a 25 year capt. at SWA...and loved coming to work like he was still new. The culture here beats anything Delta can muster up. DAL is good...but SWA is just different. You would have to be here to understand what I mean. SWA has been facing challenges since before it was created and handled every single one. Why stop now? The challenges facing SWA are not any easier than those of 10, 20, or 30 years ago...but at what point in the last 30 years have they not handled their problems? It won't be easy...but if there is anyone that can pull it off with flying colors is SWA.

 

[norskman2]

something no one seems to consider...in 20 years who knows what SWA will look like. They might be jumping the pond right next to DAL. No one can predict the future so the decision has to be made on the past and present. Both pay scales will change hundreds of times in 20 years. What's left is culture and bases. I just flew with a 25 year capt. at SWA...and loved coming to work like he was still new. The culture here beats anything Delta can muster up. DAL is good...but SWA is just different. You would have to be here to understand what I mean. SWA has been facing challenges since before it was created and handled every single one. Why stop now? The challenges facing SWA are not any easier than those of 10, 20, or 30 years ago...but at what point in the last 30 years have they not handled their problems? It won't be easy...but if there is anyone that can pull it off with flying colors is SWA.

Just the same, let's remember: the SWA culture isn't for everyone. H***, how many other airlines have welcomed a class of new hires with a group barbecue???? I think my favorite SWA story is the time they held an interview session on one of those hot summer days in Dallas. The interviewers showed up in t-shirts and shorts, and invited all the interviewees to run down to the in-house store down the hall and do the same if they wanted to be more comfortable. Some of the pilots left in a huff, mumbling about an "unprofessional attitude." Others just grinned, did it, got the job and loved it!

No, not everyone likes flying 5 domestic short-haul hops a day in a "cramped" 737. The SWA culture and lifestyle isn't for everyone. But for those who "get it" and want it, there's no doubt that SWA is a very special and unique place. Hope to get there someday myself.

 

[General Lee]

Yes, but can your body handle multiple leg days with 25 minute turns for the rest of your career? Sure, you could throw in there the time zone changes for INTL guys at Delta. Well, they could always bid back to domestic if it were wearing on them, and chose what they want to do---only turns to the Carribbean, only 4 leg 4 day trips across the country, only 2 day trips with one leg out and one back, fly only trips to Hawaii, etc. There is a VAST amount of choice, in aircraft type and type of flying, at Delta, whereas that is not the case at SWA. You can dream that maybe someday you might do some INTL flying (maybe Carribbean or Mexico, but unlikely Europe unless ATA does it according to Kelly), but you really are only dreaming.....now hurry up it is time to board and you still have to help clean the plane, get the clearance, and run and try to find some food before your flights LAS, SMF, PDX, GEG, and BOI! It is fun there at SWA, no doubt!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Richard Gozinya]

Yes, but can your body handle multiple leg days with 25 minute turns for the rest of your career? Bye Bye--General Lee

Not if you go through life fat, drunk, and stupid!!!!!!!!!

Better yet, do that because they will die early and we can move up the list.

Dick

 

[norskman2]

Yes, but can your body handle multiple leg days with 25 minute turns for the rest of your career? It is fun there at SWA, no doubt!

Some folks don't get it, do they? The 25-minute turns are one reason (just one of many, but an important one) that SWA has had 35 straight years of profitability. What would you rather have? Time to run for a meal or an airline that's never ran an annual loss?

Can any other airline say that? Anyone? Bueller?

 

[princeton]

Hey Princeton you at 39N?

I used to be

 

[puddlejumper101]

Yes, but can your body handle multiple leg days with 25 minute turns for the rest of your career? Sure, you could throw in there the time zone changes for INTL guys at Delta. Well, they could always bid back to domestic if it were wearing on them, and chose what they want to do---only turns to the Carribbean, only 4 leg 4 day trips across the country, only 2 day trips with one leg out and one back, fly only trips to Hawaii, etc. There is a VAST amount of choice, in aircraft type and type of flying, at Delta, whereas that is not the case at SWA. You can dream that maybe someday you might do some INTL flying (maybe Carribbean or Mexico, but unlikely Europe unless ATA does it according to Kelly), but you really are only dreaming.....now hurry up it is time to board and you still have to help clean the plane, get the clearance, and run and try to find some food before your flights LAS, SMF, PDX, GEG, and BOI! It is fun there at SWA, no doubt!

Bye Bye--General Lee

of course no SWA thread would be complete without the General's ASSessment of what happens at SWA. You know I wish we could poll all Delta pilots and SWA pilots and ask them if they would like to trade jobs. I fed Delta for six years...talked to many DAL pilots...sat on many of their jumpseats and heard it more than once how if they could they would run to SWA. SWA is not for everyone...but neither is DAL. I still think that a decision based on current pay...or current routes is naive. That will change at both carriers many times in an average 25-35 year carreer. Flying a jetliner is inherantly boring after many years of doing it no matter who you work for. In any other industry when someone is offered a job with two different companies doing the same thing, people usually choose the one with better benefits and corporate culture. Pilots, however, are different...I think ego and status tends to set in way quicker for a pilot than most other professionals. A job is just a job...flying to LBB or CDG is just that...flying. A 737, CRJ, and 777 all fly the same...feel the same and at 30,000 feet size is indifferent. I always thought the company was more important in choosing an employer than the size of their airplanes...in most professions that is true, but us pilots tend to be way too arrogant for that.

 

[General Lee]

Some folks don't get it, do they? The 25-minute turns are one reason (just one of many, but an important one) that SWA has had 35 straight years of profitability. What would you rather have? Time to run for a meal or an airline that's never ran an annual loss?

Can any other airline say that? Anyone? Bueller?

Wow, that is wonderful. Just think, if SWA made it 15 min turns, it could be TWICE as profitable.... you don't get it fella. That starts to wear on your body. You can't really get out and stretch, or walk and look for a magazine, etc. You have to go go go, and after 5 legs you get to slump down and enjoy the 1 2 3 rule. We have a few legs like that, but most with 1 hour in between to make up for wx delays, or give time to catch up etc. And, if you try to say that is why we are hurting financially, we have been doing this for years, and before 9-11 we were much more profitable than SWA. We might get there again someday soon. How do you account for losses due to higher fuel costs? Is that because airlines don't do ground turns fast enough? You are basing your profits at SWA on 25 min turns? You really don't get it. Southwest has been profitable as of late because of the hedges they HAD in place. With their higher fixed costs (crews--pilots and stews are among the best paid around) and smaller hedges, along with growing LCC competition, it will be tougher to make a profit, with or without the 25 minute turns. Most of the legacies are now turning to more INTL flights because people overseas can take advantage of the lower dollar and think a $600 one way ticket is a bargain with the Euro, whereas we know exactly how much we need to charge to do well. INTL is where it is at, and even Kelly has discussed using ATA as an INTL connection for SWA. Good luck with that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

of course no SWA thread would be complete without the General's ASSessment of what happens at SWA. You know I wish we could poll all Delta pilots and SWA pilots and ask them if they would like to trade jobs. I fed Delta for six years...talked to many DAL pilots...sat on many of their jumpseats and heard it more than once how if they could they would run to SWA. SWA is not for everyone...but neither is DAL. I still think that a decision based on current pay...or current routes is naive. That will change at both carriers many times in an average 25-35 year carreer. Flying a jetliner is inherantly boring after many years of doing it no matter who you work for. In any other industry when someone is offered a job with two different companies doing the same thing, people usually choose the one with better benefits and corporate culture. Pilots, however, are different...I think ego and status tends to set in way quicker for a pilot than most other professionals. A job is just a job...flying to LBB or CDG is just that...flying. A 737, CRJ, and 777 all fly the same...feel the same and at 30,000 feet size is indifferent. I always thought the company was more important in choosing an employer than the size of their airplanes...in most professions that is true, but us pilots tend to be way too arrogant for that.

Hey, I still think SWA is a great company, and the people I am sure are very nice. But, it is not for everyone, as you state. Just stating that can insight a riot on this board, since most SWA pilots think that is blasphemy. They happen to fly 737s at a great rate, which is wonderful, but that may not stick around forever, just like our $315 777 rates did not.

If someone is looking for a difference, which this poster is, it is choice. You can choose to fly a 737 for the rest of your life with multiple legs per day and 25 minute turns (everything I just stated is correct) at a great rate, or you can fly for Delta and have a choice in planes and routes at an eventual great rate. To say that is wrong is also assuming Southwest will always keep their great rates. You never know.

And, if you don't think I smile when I look at the gate and see St Thomas, San Juan, or Anchorage coming up here soon, you are fooling yourself. I enjoy flying to places I want to fly. All the guys I talk to who fly to Europe once a week all have places they love to eat over there, and some guys who fly to South America (Rio in particular) do it for other obvious reasons.... How about bringing back a legal amount of great tasting wine from Santiago, Chile? How about eating escargo in Paris once a week, on Delta's dime? Newhires have been hired recently that have been awarded INTL 767ER FO in JFK. It can happen for anyone, and then if they don't like it you have the choice to bid something else.


But, Southwest does have nice people and fun crews. No doubt there.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pgcfii2002]

Mesa.

 

[ohplease!]

Hey, I still think SWA is a great company, and the people I am sure are very nice. But, it is not for everyone, as you state. Just stating that can insight a riot on this board, since most SWA pilots think that is blasphemy. They happen to fly 737s at a great rate, which is wonderful, but that may not stick around forever, just like our $315 777 rates did not.

If someone is looking for a difference, which this poster is, it is choice. You can choose to fly a 737 for the rest of your life with multiple legs per day and 25 minute turns (everything I just stated is correct) at a great rate, or you can fly for Delta and have a choice in planes and routes at an eventual great rate. To say that is wrong is also assuming Southwest will always keep their great rates. You never know.

And, if you don't think I smile when I look at the gate and see St Thomas, San Juan, or Anchorage coming up here soon, you are fooling yourself. I enjoy flying to places I want to fly. All the guys I talk to who fly to Europe once a week all have places they love to eat over there, and some guys who fly to South America (Rio in particular) do it for other obvious reasons.... How about bringing back a legal amount of great tasting wine from Santiago, Chile? How about eating escargo in Paris once a week, on Delta's dime? Newhires have been hired recently that have been awarded INTL 767ER FO in JFK. It can happen for anyone, and then if they don't like it you have the choice to bid something else.


But, Southwest does have nice people and fun crews. No doubt there.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You think its dangerous to say that about Southwest? Try saying it about Delta. Shocking as it may be for you and others to believe, not everyone wants to be a deltoid. Like I've always said, to each his own.

 

[On Your Six]

You think its dangerous to say that about Southwest? Try saying it about Delta. Shocking as it may be for you and others to believe, not everyone wants to be a deltoid. Like I've always said, to each his own.

Given the choice between the two I would. Flying a 737 domestically for the next 30 years would bore me to tears. I've flown the 737-300/500 for UAL and I hated it - but that's just me. I strongly feel that SWA's many years of "complete dominance" may be ending in the coming years as their costs increase (especially fuel with less hedging ability and labor costs) and LCC competition increases significantly with many new entrants leading to lower airfares and yields. It's simple - more competitors means lower fares in a higher-cost operating environment. In 5 years JetBlue will have 30 more A320s and 20 more E190s, Air Tran will have 50 more 700s, Spirit will have 30 more A319s, Virgin America and Skybus will have 30-40 A319/20s each and so on. That's a lot of extra capacity chasing low-yield passengers. SWA will have to lower fares even more to keep current passengers who might consider other options.

The problem is that SWA has a boring product - cattle car boarding and no in-flight entertainment. What? No way I am flying on Southwest if I can select JetBlue or AirTran for approximately the same cost - I'd rather have a reserved seat and either a TV or satellite radio. You can only take so much of the lame/funny FA jokes. After awhile it gets annoying.

I'd rather have the choice of domestic or international flying - I would try both and see what I preferred. I'd rather fly the most advanced aircraft out there. I'd rather not have multiple 25-minute turns every work day for 25 years. Yeah, both are good choices, but given the choice I would select Delta in a heartbeat.