Copied from another forum. USAirways

[Crucianpilot]

How much longer do those 517 AAA pilots have before they retire? I would imagine it can't be more than maybe 2 to 2.5 yrs. Wouldn't that then make the number one guy an AWA pilot.

 

[AA717driver]

Someone's got to be nunber one on the list. What's your point?

It's not like the AWA pilots got hired yesterday. They have paid their dues and busted their butts to carve out a market, going head to head with SWA for over 20 years.

USAir had a virtual monopoly in the NE and still couldn't survive.

Like I've been told: If you stuck with this airline for this long, you are lucky to have a job. That doesn't make it any easier but it certainly doesn't make USAir pilots unique. TC

 

[PCL_128]

The great irony of this arbitration hearing is that Us Airways very much wanted to screw AWA (by putting the majority of our pilots junior to FURLOUGHED pilots) and now that we have all been kept in our relative seniority they are crying foul.

I don't consider DOH to be "screwing" AWA pilots. In fact, I think merger policy never should have been changed. Removing DOH from the policy was a big mistake. I hope the AAA MEC fights to change the policy to a system that gives credit for seniority, rather than using this nebulous idea of "career expectations."

I find it strange that everyone constantly talks about how ALPA needs to establish a national seniority list, but when someone talks about a DOH integration (exactly how an NSL would work), then those same people cry foul. Captain Woerth once said that he realized that an NSL would never happen within ALPA after observing several contentious list integrations. He's absolutely right. We can't manage to integrate 10,000 pilots, let alone 60,000.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

This is a tough issue, and I'm glad I won't be anywhere near the Herndon office on Monday. This could get really ugly from what I'm hearing.

Captain Stephan's assertion about the EC's authority to overule this award is somewhat questionable. I think he'll have a really tough sell to the EC on this. I've combed through the C & BLs and the Admin Manual, and I can't find any justification for voiding a seniority merger award from arbitration. The Admin Manual specifically states that the arbitration award is binding. That's the whole reason that mediation with neutrals is offered as a second step before arbitration.

With that said, I can certainly see Captain Stephan's side on this issue, and I happen to agree with the AAA MEC that this decision was a gross injustice. I've seen some bad arbitration decisions, but this one really takes the cake. What's the answer? I don't know. The EC and EB will have to see the presentations, deliberate, and come to a decision. Between Age-60 and the AAA/AWA integration, there's gonna be one hell of a fireworks display up in Herndon next week.

No PCL you're incorrect, the EC has NO authority in a third party arbitration case period. Green is absolutly correct, prior to your making such a bold statement you should have read the transcripts. That pilot group has been lied to for two years by their own reps and MC and now look to any and everyone else to blame. PCL they got far more than they ever deserved in this deal all at the expense of the AWA pilot group.

WD

 

[The Victors]

The list is the list. It doesn't matter if your furloughed or whatever. All the pilots on any seniority list should be treated the same. Did they staple all the guys on medical or military leave to the bottom too. They weren't ACTIVE. Putting someone hired in 05 ahead of someone hired in 89 is total BS.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't consider DOH to be "screwing" AWA pilots.

I would like to know your reasoning. As I'm sure you know, DOH means many furloughed USAir guys would be senior to most AWA captains. And hundreds of AWA pilots would be below the junior USAir furloughee, making them furlough-fodder. I just don't understand how people can say DOH is the only fair way to integrate while completely ignoring the effects on a specific merger.

And just curious, but would you have espoused a DOH integration for the TWA/AA merger?

 

[The Victors]

DOH was not nessessarily the answer, but neither was stapling 1500 or so pilots to the bottom!

 

[TWA Dude]

The Victors:

So exactly how many stapled USAir pilots would you say is "fair"?

 

[The Victors]

none. I'm definately not a smart man, but it seems like relative seniority for all pilots ON the list would probably be about as far as it could get. You can't put 05 hires ahead of 89 hires and even come close to calling it fair.

 

[Freight Dog]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just don't get it, and maybe some East guy can explain this one to me:

Furloughed pilots are not even currently working for their airline. They are working elsewhere. This airline has a junior narrowbody reserve FO with a DOH in 1988. What would entitle this man to jump from being a junior narrowbody reserve FO to suddenly be a senior captain especially if their company has been acquired by another entity?

Is it fair that this FO has once been a captain, and due to misfortunes of their company now finds himself a reserve narrowbody FO again?

Now how do you merge a failing company with a bunch of guys on furlough with a healthy company that was hiring pilots?

No doubt that East guys got screwed for sure, but they got screwed by their management long before Doug Parker came knockin'. This arbitration award is a result of a piss poor pre-merger USAirways management, not the arbitrator.

Given the fact that the furloughs aren't currently employed by USAirways, you realistically can't integrate them above active pilots. It sucks that those furloughed pilots have 80's and 90's hire dates, but they rolled the dice with USAirways just how we all rolled the dice with our airlines. We'll never know if we made the right decision until retirement. They are the ones that got screwed... but once again... not by the arbitrator, or AWA, but by their own sh*tty management long before this merger came about.

 

[TWA Dude]

none. I'm definately not a smart man, but it seems like relative seniority for all pilots ON the list would probably be about as far as it could get.

Your version of relative seniority puts many furloughees senior to current AWA captains and staples the bottom several hundred AWA pilots. The result of that would be 100% stagnation for the AWA pilots until hundreds of USAir guys regain the seats they lost during their two bankuptcies. That's called a windfall at the other's expense.

You can't put 05 hires ahead of 89 hires and even come close to calling it fair.

What is "seniority"? Is it defined by how long you've been at a company or by how many pilots are senior/junior to you? One might say that a USAir '86 is very senior but unfortunately he wasn't senior enough to avoid being furloughed! You're looking at one piece of the equation (DOH) and ignoring the rest (how much seniority one has). In 2005 the most junior USAir pilot was a 1986 hire. How much seniority did he have? Zero, since every flying USAir pilot was senior to him. That's the seniority that Nicolau entitled him to keep in the integration.

I've you'd like to read Nicolau's decision yourself and have no other access feel free to PM me and I zap it to you. It's a 5MB, 76 page PDF.

 

[Green]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just don't get it, and maybe some East guy can explain this one to me:

Furloughed pilots are not even currently working for their airline. They are working elsewhere. This airline has a junior narrowbody reserve FO with a DOH in 1988. What would entitle this man to jump from being a junior narrowbody reserve FO to suddenly be a senior captain especially if their company has been acquired by another entity?

Is it fair that this FO has once been a captain, and due to misfortunes of their company now finds himself a reserve narrowbody FO again?

Now how do you merge a failing company with a bunch of guys on furlough with a healthy company that was hiring pilots?

No doubt that East guys got screwed for sure, but they got screwed by their management long before Doug Parker came knockin'. This arbitration award is a result of a piss poor pre-merger USAirways management, not the arbitrator.

Given the fact that the furloughs aren't currently employed by USAirways, you realistically can't integrate them above active pilots. It sucks that those furloughed pilots have 80's and 90's hire dates, but they rolled the dice with USAirways just how we all rolled the dice with our airlines. We'll never know if we made the right decision until retirement. They are the ones that got screwed... but once again... not by the arbitrator, or AWA, but by their own sh*tty management long before this merger came about.

well put....people who scream unfair aren't looking closely at the situation. You ask them if a furloughed pilot should be senior to the majority of AWA captains and they say of course not but then say DOH must be factored in. Can't have it both ways.

 

[AutoBus]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just don't get it, and maybe some East guy can explain this one to me:

Furloughed pilots are not even currently working for their airline. They are working elsewhere. This airline has a junior narrowbody reserve FO with a DOH in 1988. What would entitle this man to jump from being a junior narrowbody reserve FO to suddenly be a senior captain especially if their company has been acquired by another entity?

Is it fair that this FO has once been a captain, and due to misfortunes of their company now finds himself a reserve narrowbody FO again?

Now how do you merge a failing company with a bunch of guys on furlough with a healthy company that was hiring pilots?

No doubt that East guys got screwed for sure, but they got screwed by their management long before Doug Parker came knockin'. This arbitration award is a result of a piss poor pre-merger USAirways management, not the arbitrator.

Given the fact that the furloughs aren't currently employed by USAirways, you realistically can't integrate them above active pilots. It sucks that those furloughed pilots have 80's and 90's hire dates, but they rolled the dice with USAirways just how we all rolled the dice with our airlines. We'll never know if we made the right decision until retirement. They are the ones that got screwed... but once again... not by the arbitrator, or AWA, but by their own sh*tty management long before this merger came about.

The only reason this is an issue is that the orginal US Airways was such a screwed up company. I mean they went almost 10 years without hiring pilots. It sux have a 89 hire date and be at the bottom of the list, but the fact that you don't have any "mid senioirty guys" to smooth out integration speaks volumes for the condition of the company.

If you had guys hired in the 90's and 00's on the active AAA seniority list the integration would have turned out different, But you didn't!

 

[AutoBus]

Your version of relative seniority puts many furloughees senior to current AWA captains and staples the bottom several hundred AWA pilots. The result of that would be 100% stagnation for the AWA pilots until hundreds of USAir guys regain the seats they lost during their two bankuptcies. That's called a windfall at the other's expense.What is "seniority"? Is it defined by how long you've been at a company or by how many pilots are senior/junior to you? One might say that a USAir '86 is very senior but unfortunately he wasn't senior enough to avoid being furloughed! You're looking at one piece of the equation (DOH) and ignoring the rest (how much seniority one has). In 2005 the most junior USAir pilot was a 1986 hire. How much seniority did he have? Zero, since every flying USAir pilot was senior to him. F.

Very well said!

 

[The Victors]

Your version of relative seniority puts many furloughees senior to current AWA captains and staples the bottom several hundred AWA pilots. The result of that would be 100% stagnation for the AWA pilots until hundreds of USAir guys regain the seats they lost during their two bankuptcies. That's called a windfall at the other's expense.What is "seniority"? Is it defined by how long you've been at a company or by how many pilots are senior/junior to you? One might say that a USAir '86 is very senior but unfortunately he wasn't senior enough to avoid being furloughed! You're looking at one piece of the equation (DOH) and ignoring the rest (how much seniority one has). In 2005 the most junior USAir pilot was a 1986 hire. How much seniority did he have? Zero, since every flying USAir pilot was senior to him. That's the seniority that Nicolau entitled him to keep in the integration.

I've you'd like to read Nicolau's decision yourself and have no other access feel free to PM me and I zap it to you. It's a 5MB, 76 page PDF.

Thanks I have it. I'm not in on the fight anymore. You make a good arguement, but I just disagree about the staple job.

 

[Hpilot]

HP is the best 121 job, by far, that I have ever had. The best schedule, the best pay and by far the best people.

SHHHHHH! We're trying to deep that a secret. We don't want people like 737 Plt applying here.