Prospective Rest

[KeroseneDream]

Aside from Netjets, which of the fractionals have prospective rest policies in force?

 

[CE750Driver]

None that do it legally.

 

[FLYLOW22]

None.

14 hours of duty (max), followed by 10 hours (min) rest.

Repeat 7 times, enjoy.

I guess this is a reason we like our pesky little Union over here.

 

[B19 Flyer]

None that do it legally.

All rest is prospective in nature. .... See the FAA legal interpretation below.

_____________________

June 24, 1991
Mr. Fredrick G. Pappas, Jr.
Director, Flight Services
Midwest Corporate Aviation
PO Box 8067
Wichita, KS 67208

Dear Mr. Pappas:

Thank you for your letter of April 12, 1989, requesting an interpretation of the appropriate crew rest requirements for your fixed wing air ambulance operations. We apologize for the lengthy delay in answering your letter and thank you for your patience.

In your letter, you give us the following background concerning your current procedure:

Fixed wing air ambulance crews are scheduled for 24 hour standby. During this period, they are required to wear a pager and must be able to respond to the airport and the aircraft within 30 minutes. However, they are not confined to any location and are free to stay at home or participate in any activity within a 30 minute radius of the airport.

Crew duty time starts when they are paged and continues for 14 hours. (Flight time is normally 2 - 5 hours.) At that time, the crew is "down" for 10 hours of crew rest. When the crew rest period is satisfied, the crew is back on 24 hour standby.
You ask three questions based on the above procedure. Each of your questions is set forth in turn below and is followed by our answer.

Question 1: Does this procedure satisfy the crew rest requirements of FAR Part 135?

As you know, section 135.267(d) requires that each assignment provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24 hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment. We cannot tell from the information in your letter when the flight time is planned to be completed, and we are therefore unable to determine whether this procedure satisfies the rest requirements of Part 135.

In order to give you a definitive interpretation, we need the precise facts of specific situations and the meaning which you attribute to terms such as standby, "down" time, etc. These terms are not self-defining nor, as far as we are aware, do they have any commonly accepted meaning in the air transportation industry. To the contrary, it has been our experience that the meaning and consequences of these terms vary among the various air carriers.

Subject to such precise facts as we may encounter upon examination of further information from you, we have set forth below the following general principles concerning the rest requirements in an attempt to be of as much help as possible.

The rest requirements in Part 135 are triggered by duty aloft in air transportation. If one starts with the assumption that a rest period is required, then certain requirements must be met in order for the time to qualify as a rest period.

First, a rest period must be prospective in nature. Stated another way, a flight crewmember must be told in advance that he or she will be on a rest period for the duration required by the regulations. In addition, a rest period must be free of all restraint. However, the Agency's interpretations hold that receipt of one telephone call or beeper call does not constitute a violation of a rest period provision. Moreover, a flight crewmember in a rest period must be free of present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.

Question 2: Does a pager check during the 24 hour standby period interrupt crew rest? (E.g., does a pager check start the "crew-duty clock"?)
As discussed above, standby does not constitute crew rest.

The pager check does not interrupt crew rest because crew rest is not taking place.

In contrast, if a flight crewmember is not on standby but is genuinely on crew rest and receives a telephone or pager call from the certificate holder, the Agency does not consider the rest period to have been interrupted.
Question 3: Is the entire 24 hour period "crew duty time" even though the crews are scheduled for no activity unless they are paged?

No, not in the sense that it produces the need for the rest periods required by the FAR. As discussed under Question 1 above, rest periods are normally triggered in the FAR only by duty aloft in air transportation. However, where a crewmember's flight time has triggered a particular rest requirement in the FAR, time spent in standby status will not satisfy such rest requirement.

Although our answers herein are general in nature, we hope we have been able to be of some assistance to you. We will be glad to consider more specific information which you may wish to submit.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division

 

[KeroseneDream]

B19,

Thanks for your reply. I am familiar that letter as well as the Whitlow discussion. However the FAA obviously has not adopted the interpretation throughout the administration as the majority of on-demand operators are given the blessing operate without prospective rest by their POIs. NJA's contract has once again demonstrated how much unions have contributed to aviation safety while the FAA (read enforcing body) sits at idle, as the inspectors merely want to protect their jobs, and not deal with the backlash they would receive from the charter managements if they did what was obviously right.

My question is not about the proper definition of prospective rest, rather which carriers abide by that interpretation. It doesn't sound like many.

Thanks.

 

[Ultra Grump]

First, a rest period must be prospective in nature. Stated another way, a flight crewmember must be told in advance that he or she will be on a rest period for the duration required by the regulations. In addition, a rest period must be free of all restraint. However, the Agency's interpretations hold that receipt of one telephone call or beeper call does not constitute a violation of a rest period provision. Moreover, a flight crewmember in a rest period must be free of present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.

I believe the other fracs (not NJA) partly adhere to the prospective rest requirements, in that they give the crewmembers the required 10 off, but they are bending it by requiring the pilots to accept a call or page after the 10-hour mark (which is also how NJA used to do it, until 91K).

 

[KeroseneDream]

Thanks Grump, that is how my carrier is currently operating. Turning a lemon in to Lynchburg Lemonade, I do like spending my time beyond 10 hrs rest at the Hilton vs. hot standby at the FBO. In my experience our charter department has been very understanding when the crew vetoes an all night trip due to fatigue.

But I have been in the biz long enough to know that courtesy is the first thing out the window when economics change. It's good to know what other carriers have going when marshaling the troops for battle.

 

[1234abcd]

Believe it or not, CS finally complies with 135/91K rest requirements also. How they got away without for so many years is a mystery.

 

[ITFL]

One of the many improvements at Flight Options, since the Union was voted in, is that our pilots have forced management to understand that prospective rest is a fact of life and understand that they have no choice but to abide by it.

Now that is not to say that they have officially lifted their ridiculous policy that a pilot is "expected" to answer his or her phone after 10 hours of rest. But what has changed is the majority of our pilots, empowered by the Union are now failing to do so. And you know what not a single pilot has been disciplined because of it. Why? Because management knows they cannot.

So score one for the good guys, score one for aviation safety. The 1108 like many other aviation Unions has done more for aviation safety than any company out there, or the FAA for that matter. The FAA makes rulings but they fail to enforce them. Our POI signed off on this "expected" to answer the phone B.S. knowing that it was an intimidation tactic, on the part of management. It was not until the Union stepped up and said, "now wait a minute" that the true intent of the rulings were enforced in practice.

 

[B19 Flyer]

The 1108 like many other aviation Unions has done more for aviation safety than any company out there, or the FAA for that matter.

You are right. The safest place for any airplane is on the ground and unions have been responsible for placing more airplanes on the ground and pilots out of work than any other single entity.

Rest has always been prospective in nature and one phone call does not interupt rest. Unions have nothing to do with that.

 

[gunfyter]

You are right. The safest place for any airplane is on the ground and unions have been responsible for placing more airplanes on the ground and pilots out of work than any other single entity.

Rest has always been prospective in nature and one phone call does not interupt rest. Unions have nothing to do with that.

You seem to be a little ignorant of the facts.

135 operators sued the FAA after EJA Teamsters FORCED the FAA to enforce prospective rest. http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/aug99/99-1888.01a.html Did I mention the FAA won the case?

Still I know of no one that obeys the rule except IBT1108 pilots.

Oh and a phone call does not interrupt rest BUT if you are expected to Answer that phone call -- YOU ARE NOT IN REST!

 

[gunfyter]

Prospective Rest FAA response to EJA pilot

March 14, 1991
Mr. Thomas T. Gasta
Dear Mr. Gasta:
Thank you for your letter of September 13, 1990, regarding "standby and reserve duty." We apologize for the delay in responding to you.

You advise that you work as a pilot for an on-demand Part 135 charter company. Your question deals with the flight and duty time limitations outlined in Part 135. You ask what the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) considers to be duty or "required rest" when dealing with a flight crewmember who is performing a "standby" or "reserve" function for the air carrier.

The facts as we understand them are that at 6:00 a.m. you called the certificate holder to obtain your flight assignments for that day. You were told that as of 6:00 a.m. there were no flights to assign to you, but you were instructed to await immediate flight assignment by remaining at the hotel for contact by the certificate holder or, if not in your room at the hotel, to call the certificate holder every hour without fail to ascertain if a flight assignment materialized. We infer that the purpose of this procedure was to place you in the status of being immediately available for flight assignment if the occasion arose.

Your specific question is whether the period from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Tuesday, in the fact situation described in your letter, qualifies as a rest period under FAR Sec. 135.263(b) and Sec. 135.263(d). We shall discuss rest requirements as applied to standby/reserve principles generally and then answer your specific question.

FAR Sec. 135.263(b) reads:

(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.
FAR Sec. 135.263(d) reads:
(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24 hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.

The FAA has consistently interpreted duty in FAR Sec. 135.263(b) and other similar regulations to mean either actual work for the air carrier, or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. In addition, the period of relief from all duty must be prospective and free from all restraint to qualify as rest under that rule. When a flight crewmember is required to hold himself available for immediate assignment to flight duty by standing by the telephone (or via other communicative device, e.g., beeper), it constitutes restraint which precludes counting such time as a required rest period. Thus, under Sec. 135.263(b), an air carrier is prohibited from requiring a flight crewmember to standby the telephone for immediate availability during a required rest period.

The answer to your question is that the period 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Tuesday does not qualify as a rest period required by FAR Sec. 135.263(b) because you were required to standby the telephone and keep yourself available for immediate assignment to flight duty. As such, that period constitutes a present responsibility for work should the occasion arise, and therefore is duty.

We feel constrained to comment that apparently the air carrier did not consider the 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. period as a required rest period because the air carrier assigned you to a required rest period of 10:00 p.m. Tuesday to 8:00 a.m. Wednesday for the 8:00 a.m. Wednesday flight. It was only after the air carrier changed the schedule by assigning you the Miami-Houston and subsequent flight that the air carrier retroactively treated the 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Tuesday period as a required rest period.

We also note that you raise a point on page 2 of your letter regarding the requirement for scheduled operators to relieve a flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours in any 7 consecutive days (FAR Sec. 135.265(d)). At this time, without the specific facts being available to us, all we can say is that you have raised a valid question. If you want to give us the precise facts concerning what was required of the flight crewmember, we will be glad to give you an interpretation.

We trust that we have satisfactorily answered your questions.
This response has been coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service.

Sincerely,
Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
cc:AGC-220/200

 

[gunfyter]

I have many more correspondence to/from FAA concerning this above inquiry.

Mr Gasta... EJA Teamster pilot is the man you can thank if you enjoy prospective Rest. Otherwise the FAA would never have enforced it.

He is THE EXPERT on this issue.

People like 19, are simply misinformed on this issue.

Pilots who continually disobey the FAR rest rules are UNSAFE and should be out of a job and their employers put OUT OF BUSINESS... unless they change their ways.

You can enforce the rest rules. The FSDO likely won't. Simply compose a letter such as the one above addressed to the FAA Chief Counsel. Only the FAA Chief Counsel can interpret the FARs... and will educate your local POI and FSDO. Who will then educate your DO.

If you do not get the response you want from the POI .. go to the Chief Counsel.

thats how it works.

 

[B19 Flyer]

People like 19, are simply misinformed on this issue.

Really, is that a fact?

The original simple question that was asked and answered was: Is rest prospective?

My simple answer since my first response is: Yes, it is. You must have the rest prior to entering the assignment.

Next question, does a single phone call interupt rest?
Simple answer, (backed by the legal interp I posted) - No it doesn't.

If the carrier is making you standby and wait for the call, then you are on duty.. of course.

It doesn't take a union to figure that out... but man, can they help to complicate a simple question...

 

[dime line]

You are right. The safest place for any airplane is on the ground and unions have been responsible for placing more airplanes on the ground and pilots out of work than any other single entity.

Rest has always been prospective in nature and one phone call does not interupt rest. Unions have nothing to do with that.

Oh lordy, lordy no he didn't, well here it comes

 

[learflyer]

It's funny. the feds will allow a guy to work consecutive 14/10's FLYING aircraft. But a part 142 instructor cannot give more than 8 hrs GROUND training in a 24 hour period.

 

[gunfyter]

Who would take this bet?

If you and I do a survey of NON_UNION nonscheduled 135 companies.

For every company that obeys the 135 rest rules I pay you $100. For every company that does not -- you pay me $100.

Who do you believe will be richer at the end of the day?

Right now the "gang of theives" are fighting to get the rest rules changed to their advantage within the current 135 ARC.

 

[B19 Flyer]

If you and I do a survey of NON_UNION nonscheduled 135 companies.

For every company that obeys the 135 rest rules I pay you $100. For every company that does not -- you pay me $100.

Who do you believe will be richer at the end of the day?

IBT 1108

 

[gunfyter]

Well then, I guess good things come to those who stand up for what's right....

 

[ITFL]

Next question, does a single phone call interupt rest?
Simple answer, (backed by the legal interp I posted) - No it doesn't.

If the carrier is making you standby and wait for the call, then you are on duty.. of course.

It doesn't take a union to figure that out... but man, can they help to complicate a simple question...

Ya looks like 19 is missing a few important bits of information. The fact is management at FLOPS was telling us we were "expected" to answer our phones after 10 hrs of rest but prior to a duty on time. So you would think that we would in effect be in stby after 10 hrs each night, but oh no, our POI saw if differently. He said that because we were only "expected" not "required to answer a phone, that did not constitute stby.

So now who is making things complicated? In this case the POI was and when the 1108 came on the scene and helped our pilots understand that this ruling from the POI was in-fact B.S. everything changed. First one, than two than hundreds of our pilots stopped answering their phones in rest. Now we can go to bed each night knowing when we will have to fly the next day. No more 3am wake up calls. I think this is a much safer way of doing things and I think the 1108 and it's leadership has every right to take credit for this.