Prospective Rest

[buckeyes95]

19, Do all aviation professionals a favor and get out. We do not need your type further reducing our QOL. Go take a job at Wal Mart, KFC, or any other non union employer. Have fun with it, enjoy your life.

 

[B19 Flyer]

19, Do all aviation professionals a favor and get out. We do not need your type further reducing our QOL. Go take a job at Wal Mart, KFC, or any other non union employer. Have fun with it, enjoy your life.

What type is that?

Non-union with a great quality of life?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Ya looks like 19 is missing a few important bits of information.

I was missing the information, and I did agree that it wasn't right.

I do not agree that it takes paying union dues to ensure compliance in today's world. I've witnessed far more pain and anguish from unions that I have prosperity. From my personal experience I would always recommend doing your homework and flying for a well run non-union carrier than any union carrier.

 

[GerryG]

I was missing the information, and I did agree that it wasn't right.

I do not agree that it takes paying union dues to ensure compliance in today's world. I've witnessed far more pain and anguish from unions that I have prosperity. From my personal experience I would always recommend doing your homework and flying for a well run non-union carrier than any union carrier.

Just curious 19, have you ever worked for a large Non-Union flight operation?

 

[DO-82 driver]

BE19...... Based on your list of a/c flown, I wonder what you have truely witness. It doesn't sound like your commercial flying carreer is very extensive.

Back in the day you would have been called a "commuter pilot"

 

[B19 Flyer]

Just curious 19, have you ever worked for a large Non-Union flight operation?

OK, all joking is now aside. Without going into details, my specific resume isn't as important as my experience is. The fact is, that I've worked for 91K, 135, and 121, union and non-union but was done flying before I went into the union carrier so I've never paid a penny in dues. I've witnessed lives, families and careers be destroyed by what unions considered important. While the union "fought" for "QOL" issues, those support people of which I am now one of them have been (for lack of a better term) "sacrificed."

I'm currently with a well run non-union carrier flying large iron, and without question see positive things that could never happen in a union enviorment. With that stated, I (regretfully) responded to this thread with factual information. Then it turned into support for a union, which I can't do.

Unions had their time and place. A properly run air carrier will not have issues as what began this thread, thus my advice, do your homework and choose non-union if you have the opportunity.

You can think that your union will speak for you all you want. I personally know pilots and airline folks that have gone through suicides, divorces and bankruptcies because of work actions that supported the upper echelon of the seniority list and not the bottom with little to nothing gained once it was over.

So with that said, I support a well run non-union airline environment, don't feel that airline unions are helpful to any carrier. There is something to be said for being on both sides of the fence. I've said this before.. take the most staunch union supporter and make him a Chief Pilot, then see how long his union speaks for him...and he for his union.

All pilots have the choice of where to work, it took me a couple carriers before I found a home. All I 'm saying is choose wisely...there is something to be said for age and experience...

 

[CA1900]

While the union "fought" for "QOL" issues...

You mean like proper rest, less-than-16-hour workdays, decent hotels not by the interstate, adequate food -- those kinds of so-called "QOL" issues that you dismiss so easily?

I'm currently with a well run non-union carrier flying large iron, and without question see positive things that could never happen in a union enviorment.

I came from a non-union carrier that has adjusted the bulk of its payscale by twenty cents an hour in seventeen years. So I have some experience that tells that not all employers will do the right thing given the chance.

Unions had their time and place.

In aviation, they still do.

A properly run air carrier will not have issues as what began this thread, thus my advice, do your homework and choose non-union if you have the opportunity.

So companies like Southwest and NetJets must be poorly-run organizations because they're heavily unionized?

All pilots have the choice of where to work, it took me a couple carriers before I found a home.

I agree. I came to my current company specifically because of the pay, benefits, and most of all work rules that the union was able to negotiate. It's because of my union that I won't get a phone call at 3:00 AM telling me, "You were off duty starting at 5pm, so your 10 hours is up and we need you right away." It's because of that union that overall pay went up significantly. There are a dozen other things I could name off that are directly contributing to a better quality of life for me, and a more productive, motivated, and safer pilot group for the company.

A union is as effective and productive as the people involved in it. If the employee group is apathetic and uninvolved, then the union will be largely ineffective. On the other hand, if you have an employee group that is involved, and that sees things long-term for both the company and the employees, it's better for both sides.

If you're working at a place where the employees are all treated well and compensated adequately without a union, that's good for you. I've been at a place that used to be like that, and it can disappear in the blink of an eye. At my last company, that's exactly what happened, and we were powerless to stop it because we had no contract in place.

In short, not all union shops are bad, and not all non-union shops are good. You'll see rotten apples on both sides of the fence.

 

[Fozzy]

.fud.

 

[jonjuan]

.fud.

Must be what all the 1st year F/Os who quit NJA put on their exit interview form when they learn the reality of upgrades and the HBA.

 

[CA1900]

I'm a first year F/O at NJA. I was not misinformed about the domicile situation in the slightest, and was told to expect 3-5 years to upgrade, which looks accurate so far.

 

[realityman]

Must be what all the 1st year F/Os who quit NJA put on their exit interview form when they learn the reality of upgrades and the HBA.

Jon, there was a time (not all that long ago really) where the COMPANY was misinforming newhires about HBA's and upgrades. It was the UNION that tried (and eventually succeeded) in making sure the newhires were given accurate info.

And actually, the whole HBA and domicile thing is in writing in our contract which is readily available on the internet for anyone interested to read. So if a newhire is currently misinformed about the HBA/domicile thing, then that individual is at least partly to blame for not doing any research about it.

And for anyone interested, NJA is a great place to work. However, the domicile issue really sucks for the newhires. Unfortunately, the stack of resumes at NJA is as tall as ever, so until that changes it's unlikely we'll see any change in the domicile system until we have a chance to revisit it during contract negotiations in 2010.

 

[walshsfly]

For all you pro union folks out there lets see how you like your union when your contract comes up. Negotiations don't start till sometime after the amend date. You have to give up something important to most but not to those at the table, and they don't care just so they can get something that will only benefit the top 10%. When the honeymoon is over lets see how things end up, and how you like you union then.

 

[Fozzy]

Walsh
You must hate us. Or you will. The company has come to the union and is asking us to start negotiations now and to make some changes now via a change to the CBA (voted on). They want to start early. Sure they need many things, but guess what. We don't have to do chit. If we don't like it we say no. And to be clear here if it is not win/win for us I can guarantee you that is will go down big. No one will give up any of the things we fought for. SO company trolls pay attention, you are not in the drivers seat. I am happy with the current CBA. And if there is not HBA for all, my vote will be a no without reading another word.

Back to topic. Just because your Union (or lack of one) sucks, don't try to bring us down. We have our act to togeather.

For all you pro union folks out there lets see how you like your union when your contract comes up. Negotiations don't start till sometime after the amend date. You have to give up something important to most but not to those at the table, and they don't care just so they can get something that will only benefit the top 10%. When the honeymoon is over lets see how things end up, and how you like you union then.

 

[realityman]

Walsh, obviously from your post you have no idea about anything inside our union. You seem to have a lot of vitriol towards our union, even though we've done nothing but benefit aviation in general. Bringing our pay and benefits up has had a net positive effect on a lot of other folks' pay and benefits outside our union.
I'd agree with you if our contract were somehow bankrupting NJA, but considering we're still turning very nice profits I'm guessing that's not the case.

As for the folks at the negotiating at the table, I'd find it hard to believe that they'd get the best they could for the top 10% and screw everyone else considering that our negotiating team is made up of folks from across the seniority board. One of our negotiating team was, in fact, one of the most senior folks here at NJA, and yet somehow we got a contract that benefited the majority of folks currently on the property at the time, and actually left the top 10% out of the best part of the deal (biggest raises went to the middle 50%). I don't see why this will change much on the next round of negotiations.

Oh, and negotiations can begin at anytime. We don't have to wait for the contract to actually become amenable. The company and union just have to agree to start hashing it out.

Considering everything we've achieved, I'm not sure why you think our union is so terrible.

 

[GerryG]

OK, all joking is now aside. Without going into details, my specific resume isn't as important as my experience is. The fact is, that I've worked for 91K, 135, and 121, union and non-union but was done flying before I went into the union carrier so I've never paid a penny in dues. I've witnessed lives, families and careers be destroyed by what unions considered important. While the union "fought" for "QOL" issues, those support people of which I am now one of them have been (for lack of a better term) "sacrificed."

I'm currently with a well run non-union carrier flying large iron, and without question see positive things that could never happen in a union enviorment. With that stated, I (regretfully) responded to this thread with factual information. Then it turned into support for a union, which I can't do.

Unions had their time and place. A properly run air carrier will not have issues as what began this thread, thus my advice, do your homework and choose non-union if you have the opportunity.

You can think that your union will speak for you all you want. I personally know pilots and airline folks that have gone through suicides, divorces and bankruptcies because of work actions that supported the upper echelon of the seniority list and not the bottom with little to nothing gained once it was over.

So with that said, I support a well run non-union airline environment, don't feel that airline unions are helpful to any carrier. There is something to be said for being on both sides of the fence. I've said this before.. take the most staunch union supporter and make him a Chief Pilot, then see how long his union speaks for him...and he for his union.

All pilots have the choice of where to work, it took me a couple carriers before I found a home. All I 'm saying is choose wisely...there is something to be said for age and experience...

Ok, so I will ask my question more specifically. Have you ever flown the line for a large Non-union operation? I'm interested in the context of your prospective.

 

[walshsfly]

If you think you can do it better than any other aviation union out there then so be it. I am just stating what I have seen with the biggest aviation union and how things are done at alpa, and how they have been done with other airlines that had the teamsters at there shop. The honeymoon will end, it always does. And don't forget the ones who cut the checks can always stop payment on them. And your right you got a somewhat ok contract for those on property at the time of ratification, but what about those that got hired on after that? But hey pay your dues, take all the credit I don't care just don't try and overtake my company. You have yours We have ours there is a place for everyone. If I wanted to be in a union I would have stayed at the airlines, thats why I don't work for a union shop now.

Just remember, a union is a business and it has to make a profit, and it will do that anyway it can even at the expense of its members. Don't belive me just look at how alpa helps the pilots at any regional.

 

[gunfyter]

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED​

 

[B19 Flyer]

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE​

YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED​

Only if you are on the bottom 1/3 of a union seniority list!

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

OK, all joking is now aside. Without going into details, my specific resume isn't as important as my experience is. The fact is, that I've worked for 91K, 135, and 121, union and non-union but was done flying before I went into the union carrier so I've never paid a penny in dues. I've witnessed lives, families and careers be destroyed by what unions considered important. While the union "fought" for "QOL" issues, those support people of which I am now one of them have been (for lack of a better term) "sacrificed."

I'm currently with a well run non-union carrier flying large iron, and without question see positive things that could never happen in a union enviorment. With that stated, I (regretfully) responded to this thread with factual information. Then it turned into support for a union, which I can't do.

Unions had their time and place. A properly run air carrier will not have issues as what began this thread, thus my advice, do your homework and choose non-union if you have the opportunity.

You can think that your union will speak for you all you want. I personally know pilots and airline folks that have gone through suicides, divorces and bankruptcies because of work actions that supported the upper echelon of the seniority list and not the bottom with little to nothing gained once it was over.

So with that said, I support a well run non-union airline environment, don't feel that airline unions are helpful to any carrier. There is something to be said for being on both sides of the fence. I've said this before.. take the most staunch union supporter and make him a Chief Pilot, then see how long his union speaks for him...and he for his union.

All pilots have the choice of where to work, it took me a couple carriers before I found a home. All I 'm saying is choose wisely...there is something to be said for age and experience...

B19 Flyer, you are not as bright as you want people to think. In the above post you claim that you work for a well run non-union carrier flying large iron. But, I also received a PM from you stating that you were someone that I know you're not. I wouldn't think of spending the time to PM you back- I'll just tell everyone about it. Guys, B19 Flyer is upper management at one of the non-union fractionals, I won't go so far as to say which. I may later, tho, depending on the stupidity of B19 Flyer's reponse.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 Flyer, you are not as bright as you want people to think. In the above post you claim that you work for a well run non-union carrier flying large iron. But, I also received a PM from you stating that you were someone that I know you're not. I wouldn't think of spending the time to PM you back- I'll just tell everyone about it. Guys, B19 Flyer is upper management at one of the non-union fractionals, I won't go so far as to say which. I may later, tho, depending on the stupidity of B19 Flyer's reponse.

Currently not managment, not Avantair, not fractional, not even a pilot anymore. I haven't posted in months, but for some reason the only guys that seem to want to "educate" are the union guys, most content non-union guys remain silent because they are happy. It's funny, when I give my personal experiences and tell people to educate themselves before they make a mistake that will require a job change to fix, I get criticized. I always say, do your homework and be careful what you ask for. I stupidly got into this "debate" because I'm of the opinion it doesn't take a union to detirmine correct rest rules. I now regret it, but there are few of us out there that are willing to speak about the pitfalls of being organized. If you want to invite a union in and risk the long term future employment of yourself, your coworkers and maybe even the company, go for it. But be careful what you ask for. And Pebbles, why on earth would I tell you who I was through a PM? The people on this board are smart enough to know better than that. I didn't and don't appreciate being called a liar. Opinionated through experience? Absolutely. A liar? Never.