Airtran And Midwest Express

[LARRY H. JUNIOR]

Assuming this deal does fly, how will they merge the lists. One is ALPA, the other is an in-house union. How does this type of situation usually pan out.
I know what happened at TWA and AA.

FLAME AWAY

 

[SkiFishFly]

I've heard about ratios and fences to try and make it fair and reasonable.
I also heard there would be some kinda vote concerning NPA or ALPA. I imagine the NPA guys have the ALPA folks outnumbered.

 

[TV9Driver]

no way ALPO would fly at AirTran.... too many disgruntled ex-ALPA pilots here...

everyone i've talked to here at AAI seems to think a ratio / relative seniority type of integration - no staple jobs like what AA did to us at TWA.

 

[TWA Dude]

Regardless, as the acquiring company Air Tran guys would be in control of the process. The only fair way to integrate (barring an agreement) would be through binding arbitration but we all know that won't happen. The Midwest guys are right to be leery of this merger/acquisition.

 

[Lear70]

Given the attitudes of the MEH MEC, I tend to agree with you that no MUTUAL agreement for seniority integration would be realized.

The MEH MEC wants DOH. Ain't gonna happen.

The MEH MEC wants ALPA. Ain't gonna happen.

The MEH MEC wants to retain control. Ain't gonna happen.

Simple majority rules, and we outnumber them 4 to 1.

I don't think AirTran management is going to get involved; too much risk for additional bad blood. As long as the flights are staffed, they don't care.

This is the main reason I don't want to see it go through. I have no urge to be involved in this kind of integration, as NO ONE wins (except management). Either we get screwed for upgrade or we keep our upgrade expectations but have to live with some VERY angry people for DECADES.

Just ask any of the UAir / Piedmont guys how fun it was to fly in mixed cockpits for the first several years after the staple.

 

[LARRY H. JUNIOR]

please explain your last sentance:

upgrade to captain: are you saying if there is a merger, upgrades will be longer? i read aai want a 245 fleet, that's a lot of metal

or are you saying if aai and meh do not merge, aai will not grow that much?

 

[Lear70]

please explain your last sentance:

upgrade to captain: are you saying if there is a merger, upgrades will be longer? i read aai want a 245 fleet, that's a lot of metal

or are you saying if aai and meh do not merge, aai will not grow that much?

No, I'm not saying anything will change with projected growth, although I wouldn't be surprised to see us DEFER some more deliveries while we got our collective house in order IF the acquisition goes through.

I'm simply saying that ANY integration that results in a net increase in F/O's, unless it's a pure staple (which no one wants), WILL increase upgrade times for EVERYONE.

It's simple math. How many aircraft are coming per year? How many upgrades to we need for those new aircraft? Who is now first in seniority order to upgrade with an integrated list?

Even a 5:1 integration would put approximately 100 MEH F/O's ahead of me on the list, adding at least a year to my upgrade times, and that's IF we don't defer aircraft AND IF we order MORE AIRPLANES. With current projected deliveries I'll just barely make CA. Throw 100 people in front of me with no seat locks and no orders for a year or two after our last delivery, and I could stagnate as an F/O on a crappy pay scale for several more years.

That's NOT what I hired on here for. We're ALREADY losing a ton of guys to other companies (mostly F/O's) because upgrade times are clicking up to the 3 1/2 year mark. Double that and you'll have a lot of guys who were previously happy to stay put starting to rethink their decision.


This will be the biggest bone of contention in the integration. The CA's won't be affected as negatively. The F/O's could get screwed. Fences are an absolute MUST to retain CURRENT CAREER EXPECTATIONS.

We already had a big catfight last month on this same topic. Do a search, you'll find all the information you need...

or just wait until some of the MEH F/O's get a chance to read this. They'll tell you all about how they REALLY are going to get more aircraft and their upgrade expectations are the same as ours... even though nothing is on order except RJ's.

Who was that who said Midwest would absolutely, positively have a new aircraft order by the end of the first quarter? Or maybe now it's by the time the BOD meets. Or is it the end of the calendar year? Fiscal year? Anyone?

 

[Eagle757shark]

Assuming this deal does fly, how will they merge the lists. One is ALPA, the other is an in-house union. How does this type of situation usually pan out.
I know what happened at TWA and AA.

FLAME AWAY

AirTran 1500 pilots - NPA
Midwest 375 pilots - ALPA

 

[Ty Webb]

The MEH MEC wants DOH. Ain't gonna happen.

If our guys were that greedy, we'd be looking for a stapler . . .

The MEH MEC wants ALPA. Ain't gonna happen.

This may be the reason the Company is suddenly working like crazy to get a Contract . . . . if people are unhappy with the NPA, ALPA might have a chance.

The MEH MEC wants to retain control. Ain't gonna happen.

Nope. But NPA needs and wants skilled and experienced people. They would not be shut out from NPA.

Simple majority rules, and we outnumber them 4 to 1.

Sounds like it's a good thing for everyone that we're in the driver's seat. Most of our guys have been through a few of these things and are looking for a reasonable and fair solution, not a grab.

.

 

[Lear70]

If our guys were that greedy, we'd be looking for a stapler . . .

*chuckle*

This may be the reason the Company is suddenly working like crazy to get a Contract . . . . if people are unhappy with the NPA, ALPA might have a chance.

Interesting thought... I've been hearing a lot of grumbling lately, so maybe that's filtering up the food chain.

Nope. But NPA needs and wants skilled and experienced people. They would not be shut out from NPA.

Absolutely agreed.

Sounds like it's a good thing for everyone that we're in the driver's seat. Most of our guys have been through a few of these things and are looking for a reasonable and fair solution, not a grab.

BINGO!

 

[SLEDNECK]

I think ALPA will have a chance. I figure about 100% of MEC pilots will vote for ALPA, and while there may be plenty of anti-ALPA people at AAI, there are plenty of guys here disgusted with NPA that would vote for ALPA if given the chance.

 

[FlyWolf]

I think ALPA will have a chance. I figure about 100% of MEC pilots will vote for ALPA, and while there may be plenty of anti-ALPA people at AAI, there are plenty of guys here disgusted with NPA that would vote for ALPA if given the chance.

I won't be so sure about that.

 

[Critter717]

Lear70,

Where are you getting the data to support:

"That's NOT what I hired on here for. We're ALREADY losing a ton of guys to other companies (mostly F/O's) because upgrade times are clicking up to the 3 1/2 year mark. Double that and you'll have a lot of guys who were previously happy to stay put starting to rethink their decision."

Floy Ponder and Stephanie Grantham have indicated, depending on who you believe more, 6 fo's in January, 1 capt. to fedex in January, and 7 Fo's in February. One of the Feb. guys was a United call back.

Not exactly a mass exodus. There are many unknowns, not the least of which is if the deal will even happen. Aircraft deliveries are one issue but potential utilization of existing airplanes is another. Last I heard the AirTran 717's were being run almost 11 hours a day. What is the 717 utilization at MEH? A rumor is under 9 hours. Bringing the MEH planes up to our utilization would create a need for more crews.

If 3 1/2 years to upgrade is unbearable I'm not sure I see the logic in getting in at the bottom of the list anywhere else that is hiring.

 

[EMBATP]

i heard from more than a few sources that we lost about 60 guys so far this year

 

[Ty Webb]

Floy Ponder and Stephanie Grantham have indicated, depending on who you believe more, 6 fo's in January, 1 capt. to fedex in January, and 7 Fo's in February. One of the Feb. guys was a United call back.

Not exactly a mass exodus

Where are the 2 CA that left to SWA this year? They are missing from that list, so who else isn't included in those numbers? There are more pilots leaving then simply 7 a month.

If you don't think that qualifies as a mass exodus, just wait until the AA recalls get down the list to the former TWA guys, who have enough years of longevity to make it worthwhile to return, even if they have already made Captain at AAI.

I expect the turnover will be very high in 2008, if they don't deliver a solid contract and spend some serious effort in increasing QOL issues.


.

 

[Kharma Police]

Where are the 2 CA that left to SWA this year? They are missing from that list, so who else isn't included in those numbers? There are more pilots leaving then simply 7 a month.

If you don't think that qualifies as a mass exodus, just wait until the AA recalls get down the list to the former TWA guys, who have enough years of longevity to make it worthwhile to return, even if they have already made Captain at AAI.

I expect the turnover will be very high in 2008, if they don't deliver a solid contract and spend some serious effort in increasing QOL issues.


.

Very true, I was thinking the same thing in regards to the TWA guys. As much as they seem to hate AA, the financial gain would be hard to pass up.

 

[CitationLover]

just curious as i am in the pool at MEH.

would the proposed fences simply keep your seniority at your fenced domicile? ie a 10yr MKE CA would bid his full 10yrs at MKE but if they decide to goto ATL they will bid the merged (whatever it is) seniority? this is kind of what the TWA guys have at their SLT domicile.

 

[-9Capt]

If you want the actual, exact number of pilots we've lost, contact Jim Peters in the union office. His email address is on the website.

 

[STL717]

Why would a TWA pilot leave Airtran? If he is a captain, returning to AA would be a pay cut and he would be a FO on a MD80 yanking gear.

AA is such a FUN place to work!

 

[Lear70]

Lear70,

Where are you getting the data to support:

"That's NOT what I hired on here for. We're ALREADY losing a ton of guys to other companies (mostly F/O's) because upgrade times are clicking up to the 3 1/2 year mark. Double that and you'll have a lot of guys who were previously happy to stay put starting to rethink their decision."

Floy Ponder and Stephanie Grantham have indicated, depending on who you believe more, 6 fo's in January, 1 capt. to fedex in January, and 7 Fo's in February. One of the Feb. guys was a United call back.

Not exactly a mass exodus.

Those numbers are incorrect. I know Stephanie personally and love her to death, but the bid list doesn't lie, and I've moved up almost 60 numbers in 4 months.

Even Crew Scheduling will tell you that they have no F/O's. I've been recrewed 3 times in the last 24 hours and am now sitting in the airport in Tampa for 3 1/2 hours to deadhead to ATL to sit 2 1/2 hours to fly one leg to PNS (I hate that overnight - the hotel is the worst in the system). Killed a beautiful 20 hour TPA overnight because we have no pilots.

My CA was robbed when we got here to deadhead to PHL then fly to BOS then PHF.

Yesterday in the crew room there were half a dozen patches of guys talking about being recrewed, one of them simply flat-out declined the assignment on a contractual basis, hung up, and went home.

THAT'S the reality I live in. Don't know what everyone else is experiencing, but interface or not, I've never seen it like this, but I've also only been here a little over a year.

There are many unknowns, not the least of which is if the deal will even happen. Aircraft deliveries are one issue but potential utilization of existing airplanes is another. Last I heard the AirTran 717's were being run almost 11 hours a day. What is the 717 utilization at MEH? A rumor is under 9 hours. Bringing the MEH planes up to our utilization would create a need for more crews.

Certainly, but not a large impact. You're talking about maybe one additional crew per aircraft for Midwest's aircraft (20% additional block hour utilization). They have around 65 aircraft I believe? 65 more CA's helps a little,,,

You also have to remember they plan to eliminate those MD-80's they have, killing a bunch more upgrades as those CA's transition over to the 717 or the 737 as the new 737's come online.

If the acquisition doesn't happen, then we're simply business as planned with a slight hiccup for the deferrals. I can live with 4 - 5 years. 7+ years pretty much puts a kibosh on the whole d*mn thing.

If 3 1/2 years to upgrade is unbearable I'm not sure I see the logic in getting in at the bottom of the list anywhere else that is hiring.

It's not the upgrade, it's the money, I should have been more specific.

Pay me Southwest / FDX / UPS F/O pay and I'll sit here happily in the right seat for a decade.

Their F/O's make 6 figures by the beginning of their 3rd year. Our PROPOSED F/O pay rates are around $65,000 3rd year - that's about HALF what I'd be making at those big 3.

Not to mention most of the Legacy carriers will undoubtedly obtain pretty hefty pay increases during their next negotiations with no bankruptcy protection for the company to fall back on.

THAT'S what this company faces... I doubt anyone will see it until it's too late, guys start heading for the door in larger numbers, and training costs go through the roof.

Again.

If memory serves, this happened before back in '97 and '98.

Edit: p.s. Sorry if I'm a little testy. I only got 4 hours of sleep thinking we were just doing one leg to TPA and I'm pretty dang tired. Can't sleep - the music here in TPA is WAY too loud and I'm afraid if I put my noise canceling headset on I won't hear the boarding announcements for our flight.

 

[Lear70]

just curious as i am in the pool at MEH.

would the proposed fences simply keep your seniority at your fenced domicile? ie a 10yr MKE CA would bid his full 10yrs at MKE but if they decide to goto ATL they will bid the merged (whatever it is) seniority? this is kind of what the TWA guys have at their SLT domicile.

Depends on the fence.

WARNING: Speculation ahead,,,

In this case, the fence would be designed to protect the upgrade expectations of the pilots who were on AirTran property before the acquisition was signed.

Thus, the fence would lock Midwest pilots into their current seats for whatever the duration of the fence.

Even if the growth was in MKE with 737's, the original AAI pilots would have first dibs at upgrades and transitions until the fence expired.

As the Midwest CA's retire or resign (attrition from the original Midwest ranks), Midwest F/O's would be eligible for upgrade, as that is the ONLY thing allowing them to upgrade under their current career expectations, as Midwest has no aircraft on firm order, or even options that I'm aware of.

When the fence expired, it would go back to pure seniority with a COMBINED AAI/MEH pilot seniority list.

5 years would just barely be enough to protect the pilots hired in 2007 as far as we can tell based on planned AAI deliveries.

 

[Kharma Police]

Even Crew Scheduling will tell you that they have no F/O's. I've been recrewed 3 times in the last 24 hours and am now sitting in the airport in Tampa for 3 1/2 hours to deadhead to ATL to sit 2 1/2 hours to fly one leg to PNS (I hate that overnight - the hotel is the worst in the system). Killed a beautiful 20 hour TPA overnight because we have no pilots.

Whats wrong with PNS, you don't like the beach?

 

[Lear70]

Whats wrong with PNS, you don't like the beach?

Love the beach, hate the 30 minute drive and the hotel beds in that outside access roach coach motel we stay at.

Amusing that we keep the roach coach PNS motel but move to the Airport Ramada in PHL with nothing around to do on those 20+ hour overnights. Lovely... but I digress.

Plus, we aren't getting in until 10 pm, too tired to go out and play, and can't really enjoy it in the morning hours. Would rather be snoozing by the pool right now in TPA with a beer in hand, going over to that seafood restaurant in the mall later and a movie afterwards.

Oh well, such is life. It was a legal reassignment, so I'll just suck it up.

 

[Erlanger]

Skywest plans on blocking a takeover by Airtran with this from a recent SEC filing by Midwest Air Group;

Midwest and SkyWest acknowledge that, in conjunction with the negotiation of this Agreement, they and their respective Affiliates have been engaged in discussions regarding a potential investment by SkyWest or one of its Affiliates in certain equity securities of Midwest Air Group, Inc., the parent company of Midwest. As of the date of execution of this Agreement, the final terms of the Equity Investment have not been finalized. SkyWest covenants and agrees that, if so requested by Midwest, it, or one of its Affiliates acceptable to Midwest, shall make the Equity Investment.

 

[CitationLover]

Depends on the fence.

WARNING: Speculation ahead,,,

In this case, the fence would be designed to protect the upgrade expectations of the pilots who were on AirTran property before the acquisition was signed.

Thus, the fence would lock Midwest pilots into their current seats for whatever the duration of the fence.

Even if the growth was in MKE with 737's, the original AAI pilots would have first dibs at upgrades and transitions until the fence expired.

As the Midwest CA's retire or resign (attrition from the original Midwest ranks), Midwest F/O's would be eligible for upgrade, as that is the ONLY thing allowing them to upgrade under their current career expectations, as Midwest has no aircraft on firm order, or even options that I'm aware of.

When the fence expired, it would go back to pure seniority with a COMBINED AAI/MEH pilot seniority list.

5 years would just barely be enough to protect the pilots hired in 2007 as far as we can tell based on planned AAI deliveries.

curious re "career expectations" as that is ALPA's merger policy, but is that NPA's?

 

[Eagle757shark]

Skywest plans on blocking a takeover by Airtran with this from a recent SEC filing by Midwest Air Group;

When a pilot jumps on this board and makes a stupid statement like this, it goes to show you why this industry is a total mess! Skywest aint going to do crap! That's the problem with this industry. Guys are more interested in flying regional jets and working for crap wages and work rules, than flying at a major and trying to get work rules and wages up. Why the hell would Midwest employees want more crap from Skywest, when they may have an opportunity to merge with a growing major airline. Midwest, if your future is what Skywest has to offer, you are damn fools and deserve whatever your fate shall be! AirTran is not perfect, but it is a growing company that has problems of a good growing company. How many years has Midwest been around? This is the best Midwest management can do in this crazy industry. Fuel is up over 60 dollars a barrel and flying around in 50 seat airplanes will get Midwest closer to Ch.11. Skywest can file whatever they want with the SEC, but it comes down to the shareholders, and Skywest better come up with a whole lot more money! Again, AirTran is not perfect, but it was nice to see that AirTran ranked 3rd behind Hawaiian, and Jetblue in the Airline Quality survey. Look at the rankings of all the regionals (at the bottom)! They are so busy selling their souls to the devil trying to get contracts they can't even provide a quality product. I would say, No thanks Skywest!

 

[LARRY H. JUNIOR]

lear 70:
year 3 pay proposed at 65,000?
i take it you used frontier third year times 75 times 12? 73 X 75 x 12.

how many credits do most guys make per month? 75? 85?110?

thanks

 

[Lear70]

lear 70:
year 3 pay proposed at 65,000?
i take it you used frontier third year times 75 times 12? 73 X 75 x 12.

how many credits do most guys make per month? 75? 85?110?

thanks

Why would I use Frontier pay rates?

I'm using our own AirTran pay rates. $61 per hour times 85 hours per month average CREDIT = $5,185 per month. Times 12 = $62,220.

If we have an agreement in place by then, I expect about a 10-15% increase in those rates (it SHOULD be closer to 25% to bridge the gap between us and our competition - SWA and JBlu's blended rates).

Brings it to between $70k and $75k a year. My buddies at SWA and FDX will be making well over $100k on 3rd year F/O rates.

curious re "career expectations" as that is ALPA's merger policy, but is that NPA's?

I'm not here to speak for the NPA, but that is the information that is getting to the line pilots.

Additionally, that's also Mohawk-Allegheny precedent which would be used if this turned nasty, which makes it the benchmark to figure what would happen.

 

[717capt]

When a pilot jumps on this board and makes a stupid statement like this, it goes to show you why this industry is a total mess! Skywest aint going to do crap! That's the problem with this industry. Guys are more interested in flying regional jets and working for crap wages and work rules, than flying at a major and trying to get work rules and wages up. Why the hell would Midwest employees want more crap from Skywest, when they may have an opportunity to merge with a growing major airline. Midwest, if your future is what Skywest has to offer, you are dang fools and deserve whatever your fate shall be! AirTran is not perfect, but it is a growing company that has problems of a good growing company. How many years has Midwest been around? This is the best Midwest management can do in this crazy industry. Fuel is up over 60 dollars a barrel and flying around in 50 seat airplanes will get Midwest closer to Ch.11. Skywest can file whatever they want with the SEC, but it comes down to the shareholders, and Skywest better come up with a whole lot more money! Again, AirTran is not perfect, but it was nice to see that AirTran ranked 3rd behind Hawaiian, and Jetblue in the Airline Quality survey. Look at the rankings of all the regionals (at the bottom)! They are so busy selling their souls to the devil trying to get contracts they can't even provide a quality product. I would say, No thanks Skywest!

Eagle,

Take it easy bro.. It ain't such a far fetched idea. Skywest has a sh1tload of money and if they feel the need they can come in an try to mess up the deal. Personally I don't see why they would be interested. Midex contracted what, 25 skywest airplanes to fly as midwest connect or whatever they call themselves. It ain't a big deal for skywest to put them right back in the DL system or wherever, so I don't think they would be interested in an Airtran/midex hookup.

For those interested in a potential seniority integration if the merger goes through, speculate all you want but here are the facts. If airtran was ALPA and since Midwest is ALPA, the merger commitees could lock themselves up in a room, come up with a list and thats pretty much the end of it. Since Airtran is NPA it speficially states in our constitution and by-laws that ANY POTENTAIL SENIORITY INTEGRATION HAS TO BE RATIFIED BY THE MEMBERSHIP. So, these guys can lock themselves up in a room, come up with a list and if the NPA membership doesn't ratify it, back to the drawing board.

 

[atldc9]

"I'm not here to speak for the NPA, but that is the information that is getting to the line pilots."

Lear70,

There has not been one single piece of news disseminated from the NPA Merger Committee to the pilot group. There is no news. The committee has been established in the event of a merger. Nothing else. To say otherwise is patently false.

The "information getting to the line pilots" is straight crew room rumors.