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ASA/SKYW and PCL/Colgan pilots

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Joe, While I admire your intentions to develop one list of the pilots under SkyWest Inc. and the potential negotiating power it would have I doubt between the two pilot groups there is sufficient negotiating capital to pull it off.

And, all SkyWest Inc has to do to get around it is spin up another certificate, and thus another pilot group. Problem solved, for them at least.

Certificates are not the giant hurdle they used to be, and yes, all of this has been researched by the legals before the aquisition of ASA was finalized.
 
All SkyWest Inc has to do to get around it is spin up another certificate, and thus another pilot group. Problem solved, for them at least.
That is why you have to bind the holding company to the agreement, like Comair just did.
 
I would love to see what would happen at ASA if they got rid of ALPA. I would venture to guess that ASA's list would be put on the bottom of SKW's. It would be a love it or leave it. You pay would go down and so would SKW's. There would be no reason for SKW management to keep it up. Both of its carriers just voted ALPA down and out. When y'all got pi$$ed off enough they would give you just enough money to stop the union drive. It is a cycle and pilots are a commodity. If you think that the relationship would be better with out ALPA, try it. I would venture to guess that it would be one of the worst moves the ASA pilots could make.
As bad as ALPA has appeared to be for ASA, and as many dumb things that they have done, the fact that we have a CBA makes it bound by federal law. Yes, the company violates it everyday, but if you did not have one, I would guess that you would be abused until you were so bloody you could not stand up.

Be careful what you wish for...
 
I would love to see what would happen at ASA if they got rid of ALPA. I would venture to guess that ASA's list would be put on the bottom of SKW's. It would be a love it or leave it. You pay would go down and so would SKW's. There would be no reason for SKW management to keep it up. Both of its carriers just voted ALPA down and out. When y'all got pi$$ed off enough they would give you just enough money to stop the union drive. It is a cycle and pilots are a commodity. If you think that the relationship would be better with out ALPA, try it. I would venture to guess that it would be one of the worst moves the ASA pilots could make.
As bad as ALPA has appeared to be for ASA, and as many dumb things that they have done, the fact that we have a CBA makes it bound by federal law. Yes, the company violates it everyday, but if you did not have one, I would guess that you would be abused until you were so bloody you could not stand up.

Be careful what you wish for...

ACL65Pilot,

Decertification would only be pursued IF ALPA fails to deliver on a single list. It has been done in the past at EGL, MAG, and CHQ/Republic. Are you saying ALPA can't accomplish a single list with Skywest Inc. that binds the entire holding company? It's been done before, why can't it be done here?

If ALPA can't deliver, then maybe it is time to find someone who can....
 
A single list and binding the company to that list of pilots is a maybe a good idea. What will it cost us?
I pay my ALPA dues, though I do not have a chioce, and am generally glad to have them on property b/c of legal protection etc. When it comes to negotiating, however, they are losing my support. This is my second carrier, AE being the first, and neither union impressed me. Do I trust mgt? NO! So what a guy like me to do?

Goat
 
If ALPA can't deliver, then maybe it is time to find someone who can....

Joe-

Did I miss it? I am still waiting for you to tell me how ALPA failed the ACA pilots....

ALPA can't deliver? find someone who can? Joe- if you are going to create a power vacuum you'd had better someone to replace ALPA when you show them the door.... If you don't have ALL of this planned then you are being very irresponsible..............
 
We are in an advantageous time to do this. There is a pilot shortage at the regional level. Unless there is consolidation and parking of rj's, we actually have some options collectively. SKYW and ASA cannot fill ground schools. ASA is hiring people that do not yet have their commercial multi-engine rating!

If there was a time to fix the problem at the regional level, then it is now. But I won't sign your petition because of your past performance (or lack thereof). Call me when you get someone that actually does their job.
 
I am an ALPA member, so i don't want it to seem like I am bashing alpa.. But how can skywest be an alter ego of ASA if they are the parent company, that is just an ignorant statement. Like saying your mother is your sister. Well i guess in some parts of the world GA, that can be true.. so.. flame on..

Do you know the difference between Skywest Inc and Skywest Airlines?

Skywest Airlines is not the parent company of ASA. Both Skywest Airlines and ASA are subsidiaries of Skywest Inc. Since Skywest Airlines is non union, and ASA's assets and flying are being transferred to Skywest, and the Skywest pilots are being used to whipsaw the ASA pilots, Skywest Airlines is an alter ego of ASA. This actually is a textbook case for single carrier status.

I agree with Joe Mechant that ALPA is afraid to pursue it for fear of decertification.

Unfortunately, no petition he starts will gain enough traction to get a majority following because he is such a pariah. He will be an albatross around the neck of anything he puts his name on. If he really wants this to happen, he should put someone who has the respect of our pilot group's name on it and then he should take a behind the scenes role. He neede to team up with someone who has a reputation for not hating ALPA out of spite, because most of our pilots will just see this effort as "JB trying to screw ALPA again".

Besides, a petition means nothing to ALPA. They can ignore it. The only way to do what he wants is to pass a resolution at an LEC meeting.
 
Do you know the difference between Skywest Inc and Skywest Airlines?

Skywest Airlines is not the parent company of ASA. Both Skywest Airlines and ASA are subsidiaries of Skywest Inc. Since Skywest Airlines is non union, and ASA's assets and flying are being transferred to Skywest, and the Skywest pilots are being used to whipsaw the ASA pilots, Skywest Airlines is an alter ego of ASA. This actually is a textbook case for single carrier status.

I agree with Joe Mechant that ALPA is afraid to pursue it for fear of decertification.

Unfortunately, no petition he starts will gain enough traction to get a majority following because he is such a pariah. He will be an albatross around the neck of anything he puts his name on. If he really wants this to happen, he should put someone who has the respect of our pilot group's name on it and then he should take a behind the scenes role. He neede to team up with someone who has a reputation for not hating ALPA out of spite, because most of our pilots will just see this effort as "JB trying to screw ALPA again".

Besides, a petition means nothing to ALPA. They can ignore it. The only way to do what he wants is to pass a resolution at an LEC meeting.

Pennekamp,
If you believe this will be a good road to go down, there will traction for this motion elsewhere as well. It is going to take someone who has some experience with ALPA to stick their neck out. I'd gladly do it but I doubt my word would carry much weight. But I have no with helping carry some of the water. ALPA has to start doing business like it is today and not 1950.

In my brief experience in the airlines, when a company says they are going to do something contract related, they do. The union tends to disbelieve this and encourages the members to do the same. The outcome at TSA wasn't a happy one. ASA lost the 900's to Skywest just as promised and lost some 700's (We got 16 more planes *sic*) as well until SW Inc discovered they didn't have the pilots to fly them all. I'm not sure what the answer is if SW pilots disavow a single list but the current playbook needs to be tossed and a new one written.
 
Pennekamp,
If you believe this will be a good road to go down, there will traction for this motion elsewhere as well. It is going to take someone who has some experience with ALPA to stick their neck out...

I'm not sure what the answer is if SW pilots disavow a single list but the current playbook needs to be tossed and a new one written.

I am starting to believe it, and I agree that it needs to come from someone with "ALPA credibility".

And yes, ALPAs playbook dates back to pre-deregulation and needs to be updated.
 
If I was at SKYW I would not vote ALPA in. However, at ASA we could not live without it. In my time here scheduling has tried to force me to break the law 5 times and violate the contract countless times, and I've been able to tell them no. I have no doubt that without the threat of representation on my side it would have been very ugly for me. ASA has proven that we are not managed by ethical people, and they use skd as their enforcer. With ALPA I can stand up for what's right without repercussion(sic). PS: JB is just sour grapes and wants to make waves with ALPA for personal reasons, namely to preserve his own present career.
 
In my brief experience in the airlines, when a company says they are going to do something contract related, they do. The union tends to disbelieve this and encourages the members to do the same. The outcome at TSA wasn't a happy one. ASA lost the 900's to Skywest just as promised and lost some 700's ....the current playbook needs to be tossed and a new one written.

The only way to do what he wants is to pass a resolution at an LEC meeting.
Excellent points, may I suggest:

(1) There should be no threat to "decertify" ALPA. The issue is not related and candidly, we need ALPA's help which they are no going to provide if threatened. In fact, threatening the union is the first way to ensure they defend against and kill the idea. ALPA politics is not a thinking man's game. Keep it clean, direct and to the point. You want one list, ask for one list. Don't make enemies, you need friends.
(2) A Pilot, a Group, or Committee should go up the chain of command (CP, VP-Flight Ops, ASA President, SKYW Pres. with a request to speak with Mr. Atkin) and learn what thoughts, questions and objections management might have to such a plan. Learn where the landmines are so you can avoid them
(3) The "Petition" could take the form of a "Proxy." Not many people go to LEC meetings. If you get on the agenda then you will likely carry your vote.
(4) At every step of the way treat your friends and adversaries with thoughtful consideration and respect.

This would be easier if the ASA pilots still had access to Atkin. However, after the way he was treated in the ATL crew lounge he has not returned. ASA Pilots' input is no longer being considered.

Everyone knows this would be a good idea, but there are many people who fear change. Politically, it is always hard to invest in the future instead of trying to get instant rewards now. Some of the people who's help will be needed might have to make a sacrifice. Don't make it easy for them to say no by pi$$ing them off.

ASA currently has some really good people in its local ALPA leadership. People who want to do the right thing for the future of our profession. Lets give them some encouragement to go in the direction we want. At the same time, lets not make this a "we win, you lose." The airline industry is beginning to wake up to the notion that employees who have been completely disenfranchised don't provide the best service. I think OneList is an idea who's time has come for both management and labor.
 
I have had a lot of interest in this - all positive so far. The language on the ASA petition is almost done. There is a website being prepared and I have been contacted by ASA, Colgan, and Pinnacle pilots. Still need to hear from some Skywest pilots.

Keep the suggestions coming in....

[email protected]
 

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