ALPA chest thumpers

[BigMeat]

Fedex is now ALPA for a reason. Point is that we need some kind of representation in the profession that we work in. I think ALPA overall does the best job as an international union. In order for an inhouse union to do what alpa does your dues would have to be alot higher. Even SWAPA and NPA pays to use ALPA services. Here is something else, ALPA aeromedical gets 95% of pilots there medicals back if they lose it. Had a friend spend months and thousands of dollars trying to get his medical back. He eventually found himself having to pay ALPA aeromedical almost as much but they got it back for him after a few weeks. If he had been an ALPA member it would have been for free. Food for thought. Its not just about contracts.

 

[siucavflight]

Fedex is now ALPA for a reason. Point is that we need some kind of representation in the profession that we work in. I think ALPA overall does the best job as an international union. In order for an inhouse union to do what alpa does your dues would have to be alot higher. Even SWAPA and NPA pays to use ALPA services. Here is something else, ALPA aeromedical gets 95% of pilots there medicals back if they lose it. Had a friend spend months and thousands of dollars trying to get his medical back. He eventually found himself having to pay ALPA aeromedical almost as much but they got it back for him after a few weeks. If he had been an ALPA member it would have been for free. Food for thought. Its not just about contracts.

Forgot about this, but yes their medical division can be very helpfu.

 

[HoserASA]

And the rumor in the crew lounge is that the NMB is going to tell ALPA to either put the company's last proposal (no scope, with a little money) out for vote or get parked for a year.

So what should we do? Approve the contract just to get it done, win no scope...

Will you vote yes or no and why?

Although I could live with the company's proposed pay increase, I will be voting NO if there is no retro pay, and NO if there is no binding scope section.

But that's me and how I feel about it. A company making record profits year after year and not granting us a fair amount, not even equal to Skywest pilots, just won't fly.

This rumor have any substance to it? I'm P2P and haven't heard a thing. Then again, I haven't heard anything for awhile now.

Hoser

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I Learned About Flying From That!

happens ALL THE TIME too, right? Nobody gets fired for any legitimate reason. Its ALWAYS for no reason at all.....please give REZ back his crack pipe. Or ALPA koolaid mug. Whichever.

They didn't become ALPA and get the industry leading contract for a reason....

I LEARNED ABOUT FLYING FROM THAT!
​

by Capt. E. P. F., The Company® WIDEBODY, Domicile​

On the evening of July 4, F/O John T. and I, due to severe weather impacting the Philippine Island area, were assigned a revised pairing requiring us to jumpseat on an WIDEBODY from Subic Bay to Taipei. Of the six WIDEBODY crewmembers assigned to travel to Taipei, I was by far the most senior and, unquestionably, the most experienced crewmember, having more than 13 years of international experience as a captain, including seven years in the WIDEBODY. For some reason, in their wisdom, crew scheduling assigned the least senior captain to actually fly the leg to TPE—a captain with less than one year’s experience as a PIC on a widebody aircraft. At that time, not one but two typhoons were simultaneously lashing the Philippines from the northeast and southwest; these storms ultimately killed scores of local residents. The Company’s Subic flight operations were closed due to the storm, and remained closed for several days as typhoons Kirogi and Kai Tak battered their way through the Luzon Strait. The plane that I was to leave on was the last—and only—aircraft scheduled to leave Subic Bay.​

In my 23 years of operating transport category aircraft, experience and common sense have taught me that it is wise to avoid intentionally flying into hazardous weather phenomena such as squall line thunderstorms, tornadoes and other cyclonic events (hurricanes or typhoons), and severe wind shear (aloft or on the surface). SFS is an inherently dangerous airport, and when you combine it with severe weather you have tremendous potential for disaster. Dismiss me as over-conservative if you wish, but my suggestion was to delay the flight until we could see what the typhoons were doing in terms of intensity and movement. The operating captain felt that it was safe to depart, which was his prerogative. Another player in the “go/no go” debate was the Assistant Chief Pilot Subic Bay, who, along with the Domicile Duty Officer, felt that the weather we were experiencing was “seasonal monsoonal flow and perfectly safe to operate in.” To make a long story short, T. (making his own, independent decision) and I decided it was foolhardy to take off at that time. Nevertheless, we were directed to depart on the aircraft. We refused—out of fear for our personal safety. We immediately contacted our Subic union representative and briefed him extensively on the situation. He and the union Grievance Committee representatives in Domicile told us what to expect from flight management. As they predicted, we were both relieved from flight status the next day, and we were ordered to return to Domicile for a preliminary hearing with the ACP WIDEBODY.​

At no time during the days leading up to the hearing did T. or I expect disciplinary action to result from this incident. We were convinced that we had made the proper decision not to depart based on safety concerns. Additionally, we told the duty officer that we would strenuously attempt to get our pairing back on schedule once the typhoons moved out. What we expected was a safety debrief, and little else. Surely, we felt, common sense would prevail once the facts were made known. However, the meeting that was held was disciplinary in nature. And although the facts were presented succinctly, to our dismay, we were both sent letters of termination on August 4. ​

We appealed this decision, of course. With guidance, support, and representation from union, T. and I attended a Level 2 Appeal Hearing before the vice president of flight operations on August 22. Again, we felt the facts of the case would exonerate us once a fair-minded and reasonable management pilot examined the evidence and testimony.​

However, on September 8., claiming that my “asserted reasons for refusing to depart were not reasonable under the circumstances…” and wishing me luck in my future endeavors, the VP of Flight Op’s unceremoniously upheld my termination.​

After 23 straight years of discipline-free and loyal service, I was fired with extreme prejudice for refusing management’s order to depart into intensely hazardous weather that I strongly felt was unsafe. If anyone is looking for a term that describes this event, it is called “pilot pushing”—something that was quite common many years ago in commercial aviation. If any of you, my fellow crewmembers, think that the flight management team at The Company is not embracing this “motivational tool,” you’re in serious denial. The sad part of this is that some inexperienced or intimidated captain is going to one day succumb to a management “push,” and a catastrophe will result.​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We, as a pilot group, must understand that this management team is zealous in their pursuit of system efficiency. In my opinion, words such as “paranoid,” “political,” and “predatory” are not out of line. It is also my opinion that some members of this management team would resort to prevarication in order to fulfill their intended agenda.

As a result, all crewmembers must understand that they are potential targets if they cause problems. We are most certainly disposable. This reality applies to Union members and non-members alike. As a former non-member, I was certain that my professional conduct as an experienced aviator and my intense loyalty as a The Company employee would overcome any hint of disciplinary action if I were able to state my case in a forthright manner. In my arrogance, I felt Union representation was reserved principally for rogues and miscreants, slackers and weak aviators; it was certainly not for the well-intentioned pilot just trying to hammer out a living. Boy, did I get a bite out of the proverbial “reality sandwich,” I’m here to tell you!

What some of you fail to realize is the importance of strong representation, not only because of efforts made to obtain excellent working conditions and pay rates, but most critically for the comfort of knowing that someone is there if your multi-million dollar career is suddenly in jeopardy. This management team is not your friend. Certain folks out there misguidedly believe that these managers care about your personal well-being. Or perhaps some of you believe that if you have a job to do, and you carry it out in a fair-minded, professional manner, life will be swell. Let me repeat for those out there who still think Union representation is a waste of time and money: This management team is not your friend! You cannot hide behind fond memories of the good old days as I have, and you certainly can’t fantasize that Mr. Jones is somehow going to come to your rescue should your “six o’clock” get in trouble. If we did not have the strong representation of The Pilots Association today, my prospects for finding a meaningful airline job would be nil. I would be relegated to flying oil-dripping DC-3’s in some banana republic—the haven for most terminated airline pilots.

I am of the firm belief that flight management had an ulterior motive in terminating me, and it had nothing to do with typhoons, or who was presenting more compelling facts on what was safe or not safe. If The Company had been straightforward in trying to resolve this unfortunate event in an atmosphere of common sense, they would have chosen the proper forum: a safety debrief. Instead, they chose to pick a target and pull the trigger. It was their good fortune to stumble upon a senior captain who was a non-union member, to test the resolve and coffers of the union and set a precedent for requiring pilots to do things they consider unsafe. I was their “huckleberry.” Their political objective suggests to me that they want to intimidate the crew force into believing that flight safety is ultimately the domain of flight management and they alone are the final arbiter. Their paranoia is that rogue captains will intentionally disrupt efficient operations by using the “safety card” to ground aircraft during future contract disputes.

A final arbitration hearing was held in mid-November, and both sides presented evidence and witnesses. Union did a superb job in research, preparation, and presentation. Our attorney (Darrell G.) and the Grievance Committee were masterful. They took on The Company, with its deep pockets and expert legal team, and won. While G. presented indisputable facts, evidence, and reputable pilot witnesses, The Company brought forth unknowledgeable and ill-prepared witnesses, including an overseas flight manager who, in my opinion, misstated what the weather conditions were at the time of departure. The Company also tried to quash evidence showing that the operating and jumpseating crews were duped by flight management into “sanitizing” written statements concerning the actual weather conditions at the time of departure. In short, The Company tried to manufacture a case, and they failed.

It is important to acknowledge the tremendous efforts of the entire union team for restoring my career and dignity; I will be forever grateful. The support I received from union’s leadership during the three hearings bolstered my sagging morale. The Grievance Committee, especially chairman Capt. Chris B., Capt. Nick N., Capt. John D., and F/O Craig C., were superb. Paralegal Pam H. contributed tireless work. Finally, Legal Counsel Darrell G., possessing an astute legal mind, saved my career.

In closing, I ask that all of you who have had issues or concerns about joining a union, please set those aside and join as I have. It is critical that you understand who is looking out for your best interests. Along these lines, if you have a conflict with other crewmembers regarding line operations, contact union’s nearest representative first, before you sign written documents for management. It just might save your fellow airmen from the trauma of unwarranted termination proceedings. And, on the topic of flight safety, it is imperative that captains understand that safety is your domain, and your domain alone. You, and you alone, are ultimately responsible for your aircraft, crew, and cargo. As far as complying with directives that might put you and your crew in imminent peril, I have no comment, except for you to use your common sense, always.
​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Companies, including airlines, are not interested in individuals, thier careers, righteousness, the American Way, justice and fairness. If companies have problems, they simply want to make those problems go away. And they will do it anyway they can....as cheaply as they can...

Companies are interested in a seamless, uninterupted flow of cash. And airlines get that via a seamless flight operation. If you try and disrupt that operation, for legitimate reasons such has safety, be prepared for a smackdown. Safety reasons such as medically unfit to fly and mx.

Oh they will tell you they do not want you to fly sick then they will outline thier sick policy and how many occurances, or how many times you are allowed to be sick. So they pat you on the back and say its all right while at the same time they show you the club they used to beat your fellow pilot.....

Senior management knows nothing of flight operations. For all they know we are manufacturing widgets..... Sure they know about CASM, ASM, fuel costs etc... but they no nothing about safely flying high performance aircraft in all weather consistently with MEL's and terrorism.

We view ourselves as highly trained and skilled professionals providing a service for the good of the general public.

Senior management view us as laborors to do work. PERIOD! From thier perspective there is no difference between us and aircraft cleaners. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can work to make this career better....
​

Senior management cannot stand the fact that we can decide if we will work via the safety card. (medically unfit or unsafe operation).

They will run the intimidation and fear tactics right up to and sometimes beyond the limits. If you think you can handle that on your own as an individual...go for it. I know I cannot. My family, my profession and the traveling public deserve better.....

 

[superatr]

Here's how a few AA pilots feel about FDX and ALPA. I guess being independent isn't such a great idea...
http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=718&Itemid=61

PDP Special Update: Negotiations, Elections, and the Fedex Contract Wednesday, 14 March 2007

We have watched with tremendous concern as APA President Ralph Hunter has used the communication tools of his office in order to attempt to gain reelection for himself and his slate of National Officers.

Most disturbing to us is Captain Hunter's attempt to incorporate the the landmark contract achieved by Fedex pilots into his political campaign. This contract was ratified with over 90% of pilots voting in favor. Fedex union officials recently briefed the APA BOD on the process through which the Fedex pilots achieved their industry-leading agreement.

Contrary to Captain Hunter's assertions, his present course of action bears little resemblance to that taken by the Fedex MEC. While Fedex ALPA served their company with detailed and precise openers, Captain Hunter and the majority of the BOD changed the policy manual in order to serve AMR with the vaguest of documents.

While Fedex ALPA communicated honestly with their members and incorporated member input into negotiating goals, Captain Hunter and the BOD keep their strategies and goals concealed from the membership.

While Fedex ALPA integrated dissenting views into the negotiating process in order to create an agreement that appealed to the vast majority, Captain Hunter blocks APA members who are not politically allied with him from serving on national committees and uses auto-response email systems to delete emails from dissenting APA members.

While Fedex officials drew a clear line between themselves and their managers, Captain Hunter, key members of the BOD, and important committee chairmen refuse to sign the voluntary pledge to decline jobs within AMR management.

First Officer Phil * and Captain Sam *, BOD members from the LGA Domicile, have written the following message accurately outlining the process at Fedex that yielded such stunning success. In our view, this process is completely opposite to the process underway at APA. We ask that you read this message carefully and in its entirety.


Fellow Pilots,

Once again, we’d like to thank all our LGA pilots who have volunteered for committee work. We’d also like to thank those who take the time to come to the domicile meetings, and those of you who write and call us to express your opinions. Your input is greatly appreciated and it allows us to represent your views at the board table.

We recently concluded another 3-day strategy session with the BOD and National Officers at APA Headquarters. We spent the lion’s share of our time discussing the coming changes to the International Training Program, the 30 day sick issue, and communications strategy. We were able to squeeze in two hours of negotiating strategy discussions on the last day. It greatly distresses Sam and me that to date, this BOD still hasn’t developed the goals and objectives for this negotiation; months after openers were exchanged. I wish we felt optimistic that these goals and objectives are close to fruition, but to tell you they are, would be inaccurate.

At the strategy session, we were fortunate enough to receive a presentation by the FedEx ALPA MEC Chairman Captain Dave Webb. FedEx recently secured a contract with 90% membership approval. Captain Webb discussed many elements he considered critical to the FedEx pilot’s success. Three main themes stood out in Captain Webb’s presentation. He discussed the development of real goals and objectives, honesty with the membership and inclusiveness within the organization.

APA has a long way to go if we expect to achieve the same results that FedEx was able to achieve. Only when the leadership honestly develops and presents specific and comprehensive goals and objectives can we expect to achieve the unity required to secure those goals in an industry leading, first rate contract. Unfortunately, the requirement to provide the membership with specific goals and objectives, in the form of an opener, was changed in the APA policy manual in September 2006. Rather than make the opener comply with the policy manual, the BOD voted to change the policy manual to fit the opener.

As we stated earlier, we have not yet developed nor do we seem close to developing these critical goals and objectives. Overcoming the culture of secrecy and exclusiveness can be a real challenge in any organization and while we all realize it’s election season, the BOD should not shrink from their responsibility. We should be prepared to openly and honestly deliver the BOD’s unifying objectives to our membership. Sam and I are prepared to go to DFW or any place of the BOD’s choosing and stay as long as it takes to finish the job. We believe however, the BOD is intentionally delaying this critical mission, and urge you to let them know there is no reason to procrastinate; and to get to work. Rest assured, when these goals and objectives are developed, we will do everything we can to communicate them to the membership. Please review APA Policy Manual Paragraph 9.02, which clearly states:

9.02 Prohibition on Communications “Blackouts” and Management Approval of APA Communications
A key element of unity is a fully informed membership. A fundamental principle of APA’s ability to effectively represent the interests of its membership is protecting APA’s right to communicate with the membership without restriction or outside approvals. Therefore, no APA Officer, Committee member or staff employee shall agree to or participate in a communications “blackout” or other restriction of the flow of information from APA to the membership. An example of such prohibited action would be verbal or written agreements to restrict, withhold, cease or censor APA’s communications to the membership or Board of Directors about matters that are the subject of negotiations. (01/22/2000)

Captain Webb stressed it took years to overcome the mistrust and barriers that created the organizational dysfunction that prevented success in previous years. Part of our structural problem is APA, over the years, has been extremely reluctant and almost paranoid in its failure to communicate our goals and objectives to our members. Our feeling is the members CAN handle the truth about what is on the negotiating table, and should have every opportunity to share their views with their elected leadership about the course and tone they have set for the negotiations. Only through a free and open debate and discussion of ideas can true unity be achieved. Unity is not defined by the BOD establishing policy by fiat. Sam and I believe if policy is set in the sunshine, only through a vigorous exchange of thoughts, ideas and opinions, will we have a chance to achieve what our union brothers and sisters at FedEx have accomplished. We urge the BOD and National Officers to abandon the secrecy of their ideas, share them with our membership, take the criticism and the feedback, both good and bad, and develop goals and objectives that are aligned with the wishes of our members. Not the wishes of the select few “elite” that claim to have secret or special information that our line pilots can’t understand.

Finally, Captain Webb stressed more than once, he would not presume the situation between FedEx and ALPA was the same as we have today between APA and AMR. In the long run, we believe the uniqueness of the relationship between APA and AMR will always require adjustments to any strategy APA applies to our negotiations.

Please use “Soundoff” to let your elected leaders know how you feel. Demand openness in these negotiations. Vote in the upcoming National Officer elections, and above all, volunteer your time to help your Association achieve its goals and show the UNITY we need to show AA management we are serious about achieving the contract that Sam and I know you want and deserve. See you on the line.

Phil and Sam

 

[DX Rick]

That is a valid point. ALPA is not the answer to everything, but for me I would rather have them behind me then no one.

I agree, but most guys like Rez are basking in the glory days of the Union, when it actually stood for a lot more than just negotiating pay cuts.

Al Bundy scored 7 touchdowns in one game when he was at Polk High.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Doug...........didn't you mean to say this and lost your set and changed it?

I wanted to keep the topic on track, Shrek. As much as I love telling the illustrious ALPA "F" off, even I am beginning to realize personal attacks on a thread like this are pointless and really don't add to the conversation. But thanks for the "Shrek Rating of Credibility"
Too bad it holds about as much value as a pile of hog$hit

 

[737 Pylt]

I've been at a lot of places and I've never, not once, seen someone get fired for nothing. Maybe for something I personally thought should NOT have gotten them fired but NEVER for nothing.

That's because you're in management jerkoff!
Now get back to your knee pads and Brian's desk!

737

 

[siucavflight]

That's because you're in management jerkoff!
Now get back to your knee pads and Brian's desk!

737

Wow quote of the year right there.

 

[Shrek]

I wanted to keep the topic on track, Shrek. As much as I love telling the illustrious ALPA "F" off, even I am beginning to realize personal attacks on a thread like this are pointless and really don't add to the conversation. But thanks for the "Shrek Rating of Credibility"
Too bad it holds about as much value as a pile of hog$hit

I can tell you are learning.......

 

[CopilotDoug]

I like ALPA because they have really good circle jerks. And the coffee is ok too...

A little more info than we needed, but we understand that you like ALPA. Moving on...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree, but most guys like Rez are basking in the glory days of the Union, when it actually stood for a lot more than just negotiating pay cuts.

Of course this airline career was/is great. Why would you decide to make it your craft if it wasn't......

You can't be that dumb and niave that you became an Air Line Pilot only based on misinformation and the romantic ideals of the past a while the realities of yesteryear don't seem to apply... Ah yes the good ol' days....

As you know from reading Flying the Line Vol I...oh wait never mind....

 

[CopilotDoug]

As you know from reading Flying the Line Vol I...oh wait never mind....

Mmmmmmm....yeeeeeaaaaah. I never really got around to "reading" the book. It's on a shelf collecting dust. Could you give me the gist of it in about 4 or 5 words? If not....then it's really not worth reading. Yeah thanks!

Good Stuff

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Mmmmmmm....yeeeeeaaaaah. I never really got around to "reading" the book. It's on a shelf collecting dust. Could you give me the gist of it in about 4 or 5 words? If not....then it's really not worth reading. Yeah thanks!

Good Stuff

You're screwed without democratic representation.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You're screwed without democratic representation.

Damn! I should have tightened the requirments to 2 or 3 words. Touché, good sir!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

dang! I should have tightened the requirments to 2 or 3 words. Touché, good sir!

Here is two to three more things...

Capt. John Prater, ALPA's president, addressed more than 500 of the nation’s leading airline industry analysts at the annual JPMorgan Aviation & Transportation Conference, held Wednesday in New York City.
The only labor representative on the program, Prater was joined by Alaska Airlines CFO Brad Tilden, AMR Corporation Chairman and CEO Gerard Arpey, JetBlue CEO David Neeleman, Continental Airlines Chairman and CEO Larry Kellner, US Airways President Scott Kirby, and UAL Corporation’s Executive Vice President and CFO Jake Brace, among other airline industry top executives at the 2-day conference.
Prater sent a clear message to analysts that ALPA pilots are demanding a share of the airlines they helped save and the strong profits they helped make possible. His presentation illustrated how pilots have contributed enormously to their airlines. As a result, ALPA intends to ensure that its pilots receive a return on that investment “sooner rather than later.”

Capt. Terry McVenes, ALPA's Executive Air Safety Chairman, highlighted ALPA’s positions and priorities on various FAA operational and safety programs for the House Subcommittee on Aviation on March 22.
McVenes outlined congressional recommendations and FAA accountability measures that ALPA says need attention in six safety and operational areas, including: (1) pilot fatigue; (2) “One Level of Safety and Security” for cargo; (3) national airspace system (NAS) modernization; (4) safety management system implementation; (5) runway safety; and (6) oversight of outsourced maintenance.
ALPA stressed the need for government and industry collaboration in maintaining the high level of aviation safety established in America. “Congress must help us ensure that the airline industry’s safety net is not eroded,” McVenes said. “Together we can advance aviation safety in the years to come. As professional aviators who, with the strong support of Congress, help keep this industry safe we are confident of success—success that is vital to the well-being of our Nation, our industry and the traveling public.”

As reported in yesterday's ALPA FastRead NewsFlash, the Transportation Security Administration issued an Aviation Security Directive on enhanced security procedures for airport screening checkpoint operations, gate screening, and aircraft cabin searches. U.S. airlines began implementing those procedures yesterday.
ALPA has been getting reports of apparent misinterpretations of TSA’s intent in implementing these enhanced screening procedures. With limited exceptions, flight crews should not experience any significant changes in security measures. Once a working crewmember has entered a secure area through a screening checkpoint at the airport of origin, that crewmember should not be required to undergo repeat checkpoint screening. This means that a crewmember who is leaving a flight to commute or deadhead home should not be required to leave the secure area and go back through screening. However, when the crewmember changes status to a passenger, like other passengers, the crewmember will be subject to random secondary boarding gate screening.
ALPA members and MECs are requested to provide feedback to [email protected] about specific airports at which problems outside the intent of the Directive are encountered so that ALPA can address any problems.
ALPA continues to actively engage in dialogue with government and industry representatives to ensure that the Directive is implemented so the effect on flightcrew members will be minimal. Future FastReads will report any significant developments.

​

I certianly don't mind being represented at an Airline Industry analyst conference, the only union to do so.

I don't mind being represented in Congress

I don't mind someone looking out for TSA directives on my behalf.

Yeah my representation NEVER does anything...

 

[HA25]

I think all non-union promoters should start wearing a anti-union button or pin so we can all see who they are out on the line. I for one would love to see if this is true of some pilots, or if all these flame bates are just management moles hanging out on line.

 

[HA25]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/21/business/NA-FIN-US-Airline-Pilots.php