twott driver
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Comair MEC recall...
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Surplus1, thanks for the compliment. It's an honor to receive one from someone who posesses equal parts situational awareness, intelligence, and mastery of the English language. We don't hear from you much anymore on these boards...and quite honestly, I think I know why.
172driver, I don't disagree with any of your last post. I had a sense you were or had been a Comair pilot based on previous posts. Congratulations on the new job. I cancelled an interview with NetJets in 2001...then turned them down again when they called me three months later. Comair seemed a better move at the time. Who knew?
As for myself, I've figured out how to distance myself from the Delta/Comair silliness. I've learned how to operate a profitable business, and my skills doing so pay the bills around my house...not the paycheck I receive for flying airplanes.
An $82.5 million bankruptcy claim...likely worth around $50 million once it is sold, will go a long way toward soothing the pain suffered from taking $47 million in the latest round of concessions...plus it will be paid tax-free (into the 401(k) ) in the first year of the concessionary "agreement"...creating significant potential for it to compound in value to an amount far beyond what will be given up over the next four years. Not the ideal outcome...but a much more acceptable one.
I'll say it again...I don't believe anyone is pleased with the options available to them. A four to six year timeline for a strike authorization is not an acceptable option in my opinion. I also don't believe a "better deal" is just around the corner if we reject this one.
I hope the bankruptcy claim helps those Comair pilots who, like yourself, have made the decision to seriously pursue a future elsewhere.
172driver, I don't disagree with any of your last post. I had a sense you were or had been a Comair pilot based on previous posts. Congratulations on the new job. I cancelled an interview with NetJets in 2001...then turned them down again when they called me three months later. Comair seemed a better move at the time. Who knew?
As for myself, I've figured out how to distance myself from the Delta/Comair silliness. I've learned how to operate a profitable business, and my skills doing so pay the bills around my house...not the paycheck I receive for flying airplanes.
An $82.5 million bankruptcy claim...likely worth around $50 million once it is sold, will go a long way toward soothing the pain suffered from taking $47 million in the latest round of concessions...plus it will be paid tax-free (into the 401(k) ) in the first year of the concessionary "agreement"...creating significant potential for it to compound in value to an amount far beyond what will be given up over the next four years. Not the ideal outcome...but a much more acceptable one.
I'll say it again...I don't believe anyone is pleased with the options available to them. A four to six year timeline for a strike authorization is not an acceptable option in my opinion. I also don't believe a "better deal" is just around the corner if we reject this one.
I hope the bankruptcy claim helps those Comair pilots who, like yourself, have made the decision to seriously pursue a future elsewhere.
172driver,
I find your remarks interesting and take the liberty of commenting on some of them. I don’t ask you to agree with what I’m about to say but I do ask you to “think” with what I would call a broader historical perspective.
I don’t necessarily feel that you are “wrong” but we do see things through a somewhat different prism.
First – Let me say that I’m sorry to learn that you decided to leave Comair. I understand your decision and fully respect your right to make it. However, based on your previous writings, I regret that you made that decision. I think we lost a good man and wish that we had not. I do hope that you will find satisfaction in your new position. Now to your recent post.
For the record, I agree with the position taken by Comair pilots with respect to the 2005 LOA. While I had no vote, I am well aware of what happened and would have voted YES myself, a position that I chose to make public at the time. However, unlike you and in hindsight, I do not feel that it was a mistake. At the time I felt that it was the right thing to do and I still feel that way.
Although I’m aware that many in our group have the opinion that the “charismatic leader” you mention intentionally pulled the wool over our eyes, that is not an opinion that I share. I have the opinion, right or wrong, that the individual himself was sincere and did believe what he said. I do not think that he “fooled” Comair pilots. What I do think is that he himself was literally stabbed in the back by his bosses in Atlanta. I think that Delta management lied to him, repeatedly, and that resulted in his giving us one impression, while they were doing something very different behind his back.
I don’t mean to imply that Comair pilots did everything right; we didn’t. But, the mistake was not the signing of the ’05 LOA.
If I’m not mistaken (please correct me if I am), you joined the airline after “the strike” and I’m sure you’ve heard all of the war stories associated with that event. It is not my intent to rehash any of those “heroics” whether real or alleged. But there is a reason why I mention this at all.
As I look at our most recent seniority list (Jan ’07), and knowing that many of our pilots have left Comair, I find that at least 1/2 or perhaps more, joined the airline post strike.
In my not so humble opinion, this is where those of us that were here before “the strike” made our truly “big mistake”. WE, not anyone else, made the mistake of dividing our own group into pre-strike and post-strike. I think that was a monumental error, and the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of our own leadership (MEC) and the majority of the pre-strike group.
Our MEC failed to provide the leadership and direction, both to our pre-strike and post-strike pilots, that was required during the aftermath. I don’t fault anyone for being excited about the outcome of that period but the “celebrations” took their eyes off of the ball. This resulted in the majority of our pre-strike pilots attempting to lord it over the post-strike pilots. The MEC erred in not preventing this and the pre-strike pilots erred in their attitudes.
Our strength as a pilot group, especially the small pilot group that we are, is totally dependent on our solidarity. In turn, solidarity cannot exist in a house divided against itself. As soon as we permit the artificial component of two classes of Comair pilots, our strength is eroded. Whether we choose to admit it or not, that is exactly what we did.
Before “the strike” Comair pilots had a “culture” uniquely theirs. As new people came on we failed to make them aware of that culture and fully embrace them into the family of Comair pilots; particularly those that came from other airlines. Instead, we allowed, perhaps without deliberate intent (I don’t think it was deliberate – it was negligent), the development of a dividing line between those that were “here before” and those that “came after”. It has cost us dearly and it is the fault of the senior pilots and our leadership. Saying that may not make me popular with our seniors or our leaders, but it is nevertheless true.
When the time came to vote on the 2006 LOA, that “division” could not have been more clearly enunciated. We split right down the middle and, without regard to the terms of the LOA itself, we clearly demonstrated to management that they were now dealing with a totally divided pilot group. They did not miss the chance to seize the opportunity and use it against us.
The “mistake” was not the vote, which could have gone either way. The mistake was allowing ourselves to be divided to that extent. A pilot group with a history of rejecting or accepting “agreements” and making decisions by margins well above the 80 percentile, often in the 90 percentile, had suddenly become a typical “weak sister” split 50-50 and squabbling internally. Result – people like you are leaving the ranks out of frustration and “the company” has been wining its bets.
As long as “WE” - Comair pilots - choose to reject the idea that we are all ONE, for whatever reason, we build our house on a foundation of sand that can neither resist assault nor endure adversity.
Either we are all Comair pilots standing together as one, or we are a collection of discordant voices with pilot certificates focusing on individual agendas that are not in the common interest – no different than anyone else.
I know what we had before the strike and I know how we got it. I also know that we became so enthralled with our own idea of importance and success, that we (the seniors) dropped the ball and ignored the fact that we were creating what amounted to a cadre of strangers wearing Comair uniforms in our midst. Obviously, “everyone” didn’t do this but enough of us did it to upset the apple cart and destroy the solidarity. We did that to ourselves and there is no one else to blame for it.
In the last year we have been facing a lot of adversity which, like it or not, is shared by all. Adversity helps to create camaraderie but it takes more than that. It may sound like a lot of sentimental hog-wash but I believe that unless we rekindle that sense of brotherhood that we once had (and I’m not talking about ALPA – I’m talking about Comair pilots), we will not be able to cope with the trials that lie ahead. There is no doubt that such trials will come again and we just aren’t big enough to handle them as a house divided.
It is true that the FA strategy provided what I would define as a stroke of luck and a second chance to get our act together. I hope that we will take advantage of that opportunity as we make the next decision.
No one likes the fact that we are being forced into concessions that are not of our choosing. This new TA is definitely not as good as our original contract and I think every Comair pilot knows that. While I would agree with you that the bankruptcy of Comair was and is a sham; that does not change the fact that it is real, and we have to deal with it. That we don’t want to deal with it is natural; that we must is reality. The only real issue is “HOW” we deal with it.
If the pilot group decides to reject this TA it must do so by a wide margin. If the pilot group decides to accept this TA, it must also do so by a wide margin.
In my thinking, whichever way it goes, that is essential. I am hoping that “up” or “down”, we will see a vote above the 80 percentile and that everyone eligible to vote will do so. The “winner” must be the solidarity of the Comair pilot group. To me, that is far more important than the content of the TA itself.
Delta Air Lines, it can reasonably be said, has done virtually everything in its power to destroy the airline we once had. They have been very successful in many respects but they haven’t won yet. Delta may succeed in destroying Comair – but it must never be allowed to destroy the integrity or the spirit of Comair’s pilots and people.
In my opinion, Comair pilots do have the ability to finish the destruction of our Company once and for all. Sometimes that choice is warranted as was the case in 2001; other times it is not so clear. If that is the decision of Comair pilots, then so be it. But, let us do it together; not divided.
It is also my opinion that Comair pilots have the ability to keep our Company going, which is far more difficult for that is not solely dependent on what Comair pilots do or don’t do. There are other factors of which we are all aware, and which we do not control. Nevertheless, if it should be the decision of Comair pilots to give it another shot, then we must do that together. Fifty percent plus one may be all that is legally required, but it will not accomplish any goal other than defeat.
It doesn’t really matter what Delta Air Lines has offered or why they have offered it. In the final analysis, the only thing that really matters is how Comair pilots make their decision; divided or together.
Comair pilots can emerge the winners whether they vote YES or they vote NO -- so long as they do that together by the widest possible margin. If Comair pilots decide by a large majority their solidarity will be restored, and with it their honor.
I think you’re wrong 172driver, I think we do have the cojones to do “whatever it takes”. I wish you tailwinds and blue skys.
I find your remarks interesting and take the liberty of commenting on some of them. I don’t ask you to agree with what I’m about to say but I do ask you to “think” with what I would call a broader historical perspective.
I don’t necessarily feel that you are “wrong” but we do see things through a somewhat different prism.
First – Let me say that I’m sorry to learn that you decided to leave Comair. I understand your decision and fully respect your right to make it. However, based on your previous writings, I regret that you made that decision. I think we lost a good man and wish that we had not. I do hope that you will find satisfaction in your new position. Now to your recent post.
For the record, I agree with the position taken by Comair pilots with respect to the 2005 LOA. While I had no vote, I am well aware of what happened and would have voted YES myself, a position that I chose to make public at the time. However, unlike you and in hindsight, I do not feel that it was a mistake. At the time I felt that it was the right thing to do and I still feel that way.
Although I’m aware that many in our group have the opinion that the “charismatic leader” you mention intentionally pulled the wool over our eyes, that is not an opinion that I share. I have the opinion, right or wrong, that the individual himself was sincere and did believe what he said. I do not think that he “fooled” Comair pilots. What I do think is that he himself was literally stabbed in the back by his bosses in Atlanta. I think that Delta management lied to him, repeatedly, and that resulted in his giving us one impression, while they were doing something very different behind his back.
I don’t mean to imply that Comair pilots did everything right; we didn’t. But, the mistake was not the signing of the ’05 LOA.
If I’m not mistaken (please correct me if I am), you joined the airline after “the strike” and I’m sure you’ve heard all of the war stories associated with that event. It is not my intent to rehash any of those “heroics” whether real or alleged. But there is a reason why I mention this at all.
As I look at our most recent seniority list (Jan ’07), and knowing that many of our pilots have left Comair, I find that at least 1/2 or perhaps more, joined the airline post strike.
In my not so humble opinion, this is where those of us that were here before “the strike” made our truly “big mistake”. WE, not anyone else, made the mistake of dividing our own group into pre-strike and post-strike. I think that was a monumental error, and the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of our own leadership (MEC) and the majority of the pre-strike group.
Our MEC failed to provide the leadership and direction, both to our pre-strike and post-strike pilots, that was required during the aftermath. I don’t fault anyone for being excited about the outcome of that period but the “celebrations” took their eyes off of the ball. This resulted in the majority of our pre-strike pilots attempting to lord it over the post-strike pilots. The MEC erred in not preventing this and the pre-strike pilots erred in their attitudes.
Our strength as a pilot group, especially the small pilot group that we are, is totally dependent on our solidarity. In turn, solidarity cannot exist in a house divided against itself. As soon as we permit the artificial component of two classes of Comair pilots, our strength is eroded. Whether we choose to admit it or not, that is exactly what we did.
Before “the strike” Comair pilots had a “culture” uniquely theirs. As new people came on we failed to make them aware of that culture and fully embrace them into the family of Comair pilots; particularly those that came from other airlines. Instead, we allowed, perhaps without deliberate intent (I don’t think it was deliberate – it was negligent), the development of a dividing line between those that were “here before” and those that “came after”. It has cost us dearly and it is the fault of the senior pilots and our leadership. Saying that may not make me popular with our seniors or our leaders, but it is nevertheless true.
When the time came to vote on the 2006 LOA, that “division” could not have been more clearly enunciated. We split right down the middle and, without regard to the terms of the LOA itself, we clearly demonstrated to management that they were now dealing with a totally divided pilot group. They did not miss the chance to seize the opportunity and use it against us.
The “mistake” was not the vote, which could have gone either way. The mistake was allowing ourselves to be divided to that extent. A pilot group with a history of rejecting or accepting “agreements” and making decisions by margins well above the 80 percentile, often in the 90 percentile, had suddenly become a typical “weak sister” split 50-50 and squabbling internally. Result – people like you are leaving the ranks out of frustration and “the company” has been wining its bets.
As long as “WE” - Comair pilots - choose to reject the idea that we are all ONE, for whatever reason, we build our house on a foundation of sand that can neither resist assault nor endure adversity.
Either we are all Comair pilots standing together as one, or we are a collection of discordant voices with pilot certificates focusing on individual agendas that are not in the common interest – no different than anyone else.
I know what we had before the strike and I know how we got it. I also know that we became so enthralled with our own idea of importance and success, that we (the seniors) dropped the ball and ignored the fact that we were creating what amounted to a cadre of strangers wearing Comair uniforms in our midst. Obviously, “everyone” didn’t do this but enough of us did it to upset the apple cart and destroy the solidarity. We did that to ourselves and there is no one else to blame for it.
In the last year we have been facing a lot of adversity which, like it or not, is shared by all. Adversity helps to create camaraderie but it takes more than that. It may sound like a lot of sentimental hog-wash but I believe that unless we rekindle that sense of brotherhood that we once had (and I’m not talking about ALPA – I’m talking about Comair pilots), we will not be able to cope with the trials that lie ahead. There is no doubt that such trials will come again and we just aren’t big enough to handle them as a house divided.
It is true that the FA strategy provided what I would define as a stroke of luck and a second chance to get our act together. I hope that we will take advantage of that opportunity as we make the next decision.
No one likes the fact that we are being forced into concessions that are not of our choosing. This new TA is definitely not as good as our original contract and I think every Comair pilot knows that. While I would agree with you that the bankruptcy of Comair was and is a sham; that does not change the fact that it is real, and we have to deal with it. That we don’t want to deal with it is natural; that we must is reality. The only real issue is “HOW” we deal with it.
If the pilot group decides to reject this TA it must do so by a wide margin. If the pilot group decides to accept this TA, it must also do so by a wide margin.
In my thinking, whichever way it goes, that is essential. I am hoping that “up” or “down”, we will see a vote above the 80 percentile and that everyone eligible to vote will do so. The “winner” must be the solidarity of the Comair pilot group. To me, that is far more important than the content of the TA itself.
Delta Air Lines, it can reasonably be said, has done virtually everything in its power to destroy the airline we once had. They have been very successful in many respects but they haven’t won yet. Delta may succeed in destroying Comair – but it must never be allowed to destroy the integrity or the spirit of Comair’s pilots and people.
In my opinion, Comair pilots do have the ability to finish the destruction of our Company once and for all. Sometimes that choice is warranted as was the case in 2001; other times it is not so clear. If that is the decision of Comair pilots, then so be it. But, let us do it together; not divided.
It is also my opinion that Comair pilots have the ability to keep our Company going, which is far more difficult for that is not solely dependent on what Comair pilots do or don’t do. There are other factors of which we are all aware, and which we do not control. Nevertheless, if it should be the decision of Comair pilots to give it another shot, then we must do that together. Fifty percent plus one may be all that is legally required, but it will not accomplish any goal other than defeat.
It doesn’t really matter what Delta Air Lines has offered or why they have offered it. In the final analysis, the only thing that really matters is how Comair pilots make their decision; divided or together.
Comair pilots can emerge the winners whether they vote YES or they vote NO -- so long as they do that together by the widest possible margin. If Comair pilots decide by a large majority their solidarity will be restored, and with it their honor.
I think you’re wrong 172driver, I think we do have the cojones to do “whatever it takes”. I wish you tailwinds and blue skys.
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Please watch this video. It may give you some insight into how corporate America uses the bankruptcy code to rape its employees, while banker get richer and executives walk away from the mess that THEY created, with millions.
It's not a pretty picture but it may be helpful in understanding what we face.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/view/2_hi.html
It's not a pretty picture but it may be helpful in understanding what we face.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/view/2_hi.html
172driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2002
- Posts
- 744
surplus,
I agree with almost everything you said. Please allow me to respond to a couple things we differ on.
The division in the pilot group is not so much pre-strike vs post-strike as it is those who have other opportunities vs those who don't. Much of that division is age/seniority related, and can pretty much be split pre and post strike, though I don't believe the strike era itself has much to do with it other than the inherent age and seniority differences.
My opinion is that LOA 2005 was voted in by younger pilots who had more to gain from growth plus some senior pilots who wanted to help the company and the juniors. LOA 2006 was approved almost entirely by older pilots and pilots with no wish to move on, thus the narrower margin.
I don't think the senior pilots have failed to educate the junior pilots on the Comair culture, nor do I think the junior pilots are ignorant of it. Most aviators in this country are aware of, and respect, what the Comair group did in 2001. New and recent hires are no different. In fact, many of us chose Comair because of this unique culture and solidarity and wanted to be a part of it. Unfortunately, even an incredibly strong and determined army has a hard time winning battles when the generals are indecisive, concerned about their personal safety, and letting the troops make the decisions.
The bottom line, which you and I agree on (I think), is that the Comair pilots have no leadership, and thus no solidarity. Our MEC and LEC are weak and nobody strong stepped up to replace them. I can think of any number of people who could have done a stellar job unifying the pilots, one way or the other. Some of them are senior, some junior, but all care about the whole group and what is right rather than what will keep them in their cushy position. Again, bringing us a critical LOA with NO RECOMMENDATION was one of the most spineless acts I have ever witnessed.
In my opinion, where the pre-strike pilots erred was in not using their wisdom and experience to see what was coming and to ensure that we, as a pilot group, were represented well. Nobody stepped up to the plate and we were stuck with somebody well past his useful life as a leader. Power does indeed corrupt even the most respectable leaders. The pre-strike pilots and our leadership got comfortable with their 'fat' new contract and failed to prepare for the next battle. The post-strike pilots were on board and willing to fight but had nobody to follow and ended up, like me, wondering where all this reputed Comair unity, spirit, fight ended up.
I don't necessarily agree that a 99% yes vote to the new TA will unify the group, but it will be a step in the right direction. To lay down your arms and surrender together when surrounded by a superior force is not necessarily the best indicator of unity but it may give the group a chance to fight another day.
One of the most unfortunate results of this situation at Comair is that the pilot group has indeed lost many good and talented people. People who are aware of the Comair culture and who could have provided solid leadership in the future. They (we) are being replaced by pilots who are using Comair as a stepping stone. Many of the remainder stayed at Comair did so because they had to. It is morphing into a pilot group with no motivation to fight or to unify. The old guys want the company to survive until retirement. The young guys want growth and upgrades at all costs. Was this part of the DAL master plan? I don't know, but they definitely won this round handily, and may have scored a KO.
The biggest problem with the new TA is the length. The industry is turning around, DAL is exiting BK, companies are becoming profitable again, there is a legitimate shortage of qualified pilots, other key companies are entering negotiations soon. These things all give the CMR pilots a measure of leverage, not now but soon. However, they will be locked into bottom of the industry rates with one of the worst retirement plans ever until 2011 and beyond. This is exactly why the company wants a consensual deal. They don't want to be in Sec. 6 any time soon. I'm sure the MEC hasn't overlooked this, but they don't want to risk their home every night, $100K jobs over it either.
I agree with almost everything you said. Please allow me to respond to a couple things we differ on.
The division in the pilot group is not so much pre-strike vs post-strike as it is those who have other opportunities vs those who don't. Much of that division is age/seniority related, and can pretty much be split pre and post strike, though I don't believe the strike era itself has much to do with it other than the inherent age and seniority differences.
My opinion is that LOA 2005 was voted in by younger pilots who had more to gain from growth plus some senior pilots who wanted to help the company and the juniors. LOA 2006 was approved almost entirely by older pilots and pilots with no wish to move on, thus the narrower margin.
I don't think the senior pilots have failed to educate the junior pilots on the Comair culture, nor do I think the junior pilots are ignorant of it. Most aviators in this country are aware of, and respect, what the Comair group did in 2001. New and recent hires are no different. In fact, many of us chose Comair because of this unique culture and solidarity and wanted to be a part of it. Unfortunately, even an incredibly strong and determined army has a hard time winning battles when the generals are indecisive, concerned about their personal safety, and letting the troops make the decisions.
The bottom line, which you and I agree on (I think), is that the Comair pilots have no leadership, and thus no solidarity. Our MEC and LEC are weak and nobody strong stepped up to replace them. I can think of any number of people who could have done a stellar job unifying the pilots, one way or the other. Some of them are senior, some junior, but all care about the whole group and what is right rather than what will keep them in their cushy position. Again, bringing us a critical LOA with NO RECOMMENDATION was one of the most spineless acts I have ever witnessed.
In my opinion, where the pre-strike pilots erred was in not using their wisdom and experience to see what was coming and to ensure that we, as a pilot group, were represented well. Nobody stepped up to the plate and we were stuck with somebody well past his useful life as a leader. Power does indeed corrupt even the most respectable leaders. The pre-strike pilots and our leadership got comfortable with their 'fat' new contract and failed to prepare for the next battle. The post-strike pilots were on board and willing to fight but had nobody to follow and ended up, like me, wondering where all this reputed Comair unity, spirit, fight ended up.
I don't necessarily agree that a 99% yes vote to the new TA will unify the group, but it will be a step in the right direction. To lay down your arms and surrender together when surrounded by a superior force is not necessarily the best indicator of unity but it may give the group a chance to fight another day.
One of the most unfortunate results of this situation at Comair is that the pilot group has indeed lost many good and talented people. People who are aware of the Comair culture and who could have provided solid leadership in the future. They (we) are being replaced by pilots who are using Comair as a stepping stone. Many of the remainder stayed at Comair did so because they had to. It is morphing into a pilot group with no motivation to fight or to unify. The old guys want the company to survive until retirement. The young guys want growth and upgrades at all costs. Was this part of the DAL master plan? I don't know, but they definitely won this round handily, and may have scored a KO.
The biggest problem with the new TA is the length. The industry is turning around, DAL is exiting BK, companies are becoming profitable again, there is a legitimate shortage of qualified pilots, other key companies are entering negotiations soon. These things all give the CMR pilots a measure of leverage, not now but soon. However, they will be locked into bottom of the industry rates with one of the worst retirement plans ever until 2011 and beyond. This is exactly why the company wants a consensual deal. They don't want to be in Sec. 6 any time soon. I'm sure the MEC hasn't overlooked this, but they don't want to risk their home every night, $100K jobs over it either.
If the leadership (Generals) are elected by the "determined army" and this leadership is weak and indecisive and no one from the "determined army" has stepped up to offer strong leadership, it is hard to believe that this "determined army" is any stronger or decisive then the leadership they elected.
IMHO, the CMR MEC and pilots are in a very difficult position and they are doing the best they can, but with no ability to strike and a contract rejection on the horizon, I very much doubt they could have done more than they did.
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Your point is well made. Thank you for an objective assessment.
You're more than welcomed. I don't envy the position the CMR MEC and pilots find themselves in.
Negotiating with a carrier in Bankruptcy is difficult at best and with recent court rulings barring labor from access to its only true weapon, the right to self help, near impossible.
I have no love lost for the CMR MEC, as you are well aware, however IMHO they have performed a difficult task with a very weak hand to play and it has nothing to do with how strong or decisive they are, it has everything to do with the climate they are operating in.
It's difficult to see so much hard work in a PWA erased so quickly and it is all too easy to toss stones at the leadership for not "being strong", but the CMR pilots truly are under the gun, with no immediate recourse to utilize their strength and solidarity through self help and a pending court sanction contract rejection hanging over their heads. That's not the leaderships fault, or a lack of strength and resolve, that's just the way the rules have been written. It's a bitter pill.
While I would agree that much of the division is age/seniority related, that type of division exists in every airline to varying degrees. I don’t see it as the primary cause at CMR and this is why.
Before “the strike” we had pretty much the same disparities re age and seniority that we do today. It did not result in serious division because a concerted and successful effort was made to ameliorate those differences. We overcame the senior v junior and the “northern division v southern division” syndromes in the period leading up to the ’94 contract and cemented it with the ’96 LOA – a major mid-term adjustment to our contract made without the benefit of Section 6. Five years later it was solid as a rock. Alas, even rocks can be eroded or shattered.
Following the ’01 strike, Comair hired a large number of new pilots. Unlike our pre-strike hiring, a great many of these pilots did not come to Comair “off the street” so to speak. They came in large numbers from the furloughed ranks of other airlines. The off-the-street new hire, whether a retired military pilot, an Army aviator, or the product of the infamous “academy” is easily assimilated because he has no prior airline experience. What he sees is what he believes there is – even if he’s done a lot of prep-reading.
In marked contrast the furloughed pilot has a stake in his former airline, not in Comair, especially if that airline happened to be a so-called “mainline carrier”. The displaced pilot from the carrier that went out of business, or the high-time corporate or freight pilot also comes with a prior stake somewhere else. All of these have “baggage” of some sort and a ‘culture’ of their own. They don’t assimilate easily and sometimes never. A lot more effort is required before they develop a ‘vested interest’ in Comair. In my opinion, that extra effort was not made by the group that was already in place and we didn’t win “the hearts and minds” of the new hires with prior cultures.
When you came on, you had no ‘prior culture’ to overcome and the only thing that had to be modified was the ‘stepping-stone’ syndrome, which is not nearly as difficult to overcome.
Another thing that significantly affected the entire group of pre-strike pilots was the acquisition of our company by Delta Air Lines. Very few of us wanted it or saw it as a plus. For instance I would say to you that there would never have been a strike if the airline had not been acquired by Delta.
Pre-strike CMR pilots built the airline on their backs – from nothing – to “The Best Little Airline in America”. It wasn’t United or American but it was “ours”. Despite our differences with CMR management, that management also had a “stake” in Comair, just as we did. Neither one of us would have risked the destruction of the airline with a 90-day strike; we would have found a way to reach an agreement. Even if we did have to strike to get their attention, it would not have lasted for 89 days.
In contrast there was no loyalty at all to a company named Delta Air Lines and they had no interest whatever in Comair people. They bought a bunch of assets and inherited a lot of people that they really considered as non-entities. That strike wasn’t against Comair. It was caused by Delta and against Delta, and I believe that we were prepared to walk away forever before the strike began. Delta didn’t understand that and in any event they didn’t care. That is why they ultimately spent 700 million dollars over 90 days to save 50 million dollars over 5 years; a completely idiotic maneuver. Some folks get drunk with power. Ironically, that management managed to damage Delta Air Lines as much as it damaged Comair.
You are most likely correct on both of those counts but you still have to take it in perspective. Who were those “younger pilots” in search of growth and wishing to “move on”? Almost all of them were hired post strike. Prior to the strike some people did “move on” but the overwhelming majority, young and older alike, were more interested in building Comair than moving on to anything else. In fact that was the major difference between Comair and the other regional airlines – something that ALPA national, the major airline MEC’s and the other regional pilot groups just couldn’t comprehend and never did. That is what I mean by the “Comair culture”. It has nothing at all to do with the strike or the labor relations difficulties. Our “culture’ was in place long before ‘the strike’.
Compared to other regional airlines, Comair’s attrition rate was less than 5% on average. We were busy building an airline of our own, not looking for numbers on somebody else’s list or building PIC time to go elsewhere. That is why we had no interest in schemes like flow-through agreements or butt kissing our code share partner in hopes of a crumb at the master’s dinner table. We knew who we were and what we wanted to become and it did not include “moving-on” to some other company. To this day, that is not understood by hardly anyone in the ALPA hierarchy or by our peers at other small carriers. They just don’t believe it.
Obviously that wasn’t 100%. There were always people who wanted to move on and did so, with our blessings. But, that was not the view of the majority, which is why attrition rates were so low. Today the attrition rate is often in the 30 percentile and we can’t hire pilots without lowering the standards.
The unfriendly takeover by Delta and the heavy post-strike hiring changed much of that and we did little if anything to defend ourselves against those changes. We failed to recognize how it would affect our bargaining ability in the new environment of being vassals to the Delta machine.
Actually we darn near made it, but Comair just didn’t have the financial power to fight off Delta’s economic power in their hey-day. We might have been able to do it, but our management was afraid to give us the poison-pill that might have worked. Instead, they took the money and ran.
No offense intended, but I don’t agree that many of you chose Comair because of its unique culture for I don’t think you knew what that culture really was, which is confirmed by your statement. I agree that there was respect and admiration for the way we handled ourselves in that job action and yes, everyone was aware of that and most admired it, and perhaps wanted to be a part of it. But that is not the ‘culture’ of which I spoke. You understood what I wrote but I failed to articulate it in a way that you could understand what I meant. It is difficult to explain a “culture” in a forum post, but I hope I’ve been a bit more lucid this time around.
What caused me to make my first post in this thread was the remark by a pilot quoting J C’s remark of "I have a vested interest in Comair..." - then following it up with his own incredulous – “What?”. That pilot, whoever he may be, has no understanding of J C’s comment and no understanding of what used to be “the Comair culture”. If he did he would not have followed up with – “What?” It got my attention and that is why I responded. In reality my response was mild (deliberately) compared to what I was really thinking when I started to write.
Other than what I’ve already said with respect to the MEC’s efforts to assimilate the post-strike pilots, I will not comment further on its leadership or on how it does its business in representing Comair’s pilots. That governing body is elected and currently in office. As a retired pilot and former MEC Chair I feel it would be most inappropriate for me to comment publicly on what I think or don’t think about how they conduct the business of Comair’s pilots; irrespective of what my opinion might be. That is a line that I cannot cross for it is the exclusive territory of active Comair pilots.
However, I will say again that I think the Negotiating Committee, under the existing circumstances, deserves a hand-shake for its effort in achieving the new TA, regardless of whether the pilots accept or reject it.
Continued
Part 2 of 2
Fair enough, I did not mean to imply that a heavy vote would be the panacea for all of Comair’s ills; what if that vote is a NO? Even if it should be a YES, it will not resolve all of the issues but I would not see it as laying down arms and surrendering, I think that concept is the product of emotion. I do believe that a strong vote pro or con would go a long way towards healing the divisions among the pilot group – by getting most everyone on the same page.
I do realize that we are losing many very fine people who could be future leaders; perhaps you were one of them. I also know that many of the newer people are now using CMR as a stepping stone. Unfortunately I don’t think the latter will change much as long as Comair remains a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta. It is not possible to be anything in our own right while under the Delta yoke. I can only hope that will change and that we will not become the victims of some other plantation in the process.
I admire your willingness to fight but you must remember that those who fight merely for the sake of fighting seldom emerge with anything of value. In history we are often reminded of Custer’s last stand and he is frequently painted as a hero. The truth is Custer was a fool. and as a consequence he and all of his men were slaughtered. Remember the gambler’s song – “You gotta know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em.” Hari-Kari is an interesting Japanese custom but it is counter productive.
The length of the TA is not desirable, I agree. In fact, none of its provisions could be described as desirable (with the possible exception of Scope and Delta's co-signature). What has to be decided is whether the alternative is more beneficial than the TA over the long term. Burning down your house is not the best way to settle a marital dispute; divorce is far more practical.
It’s a tough call but I think the pilot group is capable of determining and making the right decision. Either way it goes, the margin of the vote will determine whether the group can hold its head high or cower in the corner and self-destruct. That’s all that I want to see – retention of dignity by the pilot group.
Fair enough, I did not mean to imply that a heavy vote would be the panacea for all of Comair’s ills; what if that vote is a NO? Even if it should be a YES, it will not resolve all of the issues but I would not see it as laying down arms and surrendering, I think that concept is the product of emotion. I do believe that a strong vote pro or con would go a long way towards healing the divisions among the pilot group – by getting most everyone on the same page.
I do realize that we are losing many very fine people who could be future leaders; perhaps you were one of them. I also know that many of the newer people are now using CMR as a stepping stone. Unfortunately I don’t think the latter will change much as long as Comair remains a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta. It is not possible to be anything in our own right while under the Delta yoke. I can only hope that will change and that we will not become the victims of some other plantation in the process.
I admire your willingness to fight but you must remember that those who fight merely for the sake of fighting seldom emerge with anything of value. In history we are often reminded of Custer’s last stand and he is frequently painted as a hero. The truth is Custer was a fool. and as a consequence he and all of his men were slaughtered. Remember the gambler’s song – “You gotta know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em.” Hari-Kari is an interesting Japanese custom but it is counter productive.
The length of the TA is not desirable, I agree. In fact, none of its provisions could be described as desirable (with the possible exception of Scope and Delta's co-signature). What has to be decided is whether the alternative is more beneficial than the TA over the long term. Burning down your house is not the best way to settle a marital dispute; divorce is far more practical.
It’s a tough call but I think the pilot group is capable of determining and making the right decision. Either way it goes, the margin of the vote will determine whether the group can hold its head high or cower in the corner and self-destruct. That’s all that I want to see – retention of dignity by the pilot group.
No problem my friend, I can't even begin to count the times I've been wrong - about more things than I care to remember. As for agreeing with MEC Chairmen - that's always difficult unless you're intemately involved with union affairs.
As for my support for Comair pilots - that will never go away. It wasn't my first airline by a long shot, but it was my last and I am proud that I had the chance to be there.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the individual you suspected" - are you referring to a particular person (no need to name him/her), or are you referring to my attitude? You got my curiosity.
Best regards and best wishes.
Since no one will post the TA, will someone tell me if the CA 900 rates are higher or lower then Mesa's? I ask because JO was braging on his hotline this week that if Comair pilots pass this TA, Mesa will have the Second highest CRJ 900 rates in the country. I don't believe it but want confirmation. Thanks Bean
DrewBlows
Go Tigers!
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Sadly, the -900 rate is the same as the -700 rate until 1/1/11. The -700 rate is currently better than Mesa's -700 rate, but a little under Mesa's -900 rate. There is a COLA of 1.5% (which is a pay cut considering inflation generally runs about 3%) each year after signing.
Bean,
In a word, JO is full of it! According to the information that I have been given, the bankruptcy settlement TA does not contain any pay scales for aircraft with more than 76 seats. So, we have no pay scale for the CL-900. There is nothing to compare. If we should operate any aircraft with more than 76 seats during the life of the settlement, the rates would have to be negotiated.
We do have a common scale for the CL-900/705 & EMB-170/175 with a max configuration of 76 seats in both types.
Note: None of the pay scales in the CMR TA are for 'seat ranges' (like MES). They are all type specific.
The copy of the MES CBA that I have contains a pay scale for 60-76 seat Jet Aircraft with 3 steps - DOS, DOS + 36 and DOS + 54. I believe the MES CBA is currently at the DOS + 36 scale. That is the scale that can be compared to our CL-705, not your 900 scale.
If my information about the MES agreement is accurate, the comparable CA rate [for 76 seats] would be MES's 18-yr rate, which I read as $88.97. The MES rate for DOS + 54 - I read as 90.75 [CMR scales do not exceed 18 yrs.]
On the FO side of the fence, the MES rates for the same time frames [9-yr long.] are DOS + 36 - $36.45 and DOS + 54 - $37.18.
The current DOS + 36 rate for Jets >76 Seats <86k lbs. (18 & 9 yrs CA/FO) which I assume is the CL-900 are $97.40 & $36.45 respectively.
As of DOS in the settlement TA, the CMR CL65-200 CA rate is higher than the MES 76 seat rate. The DOS CMR CL65-200 FO rate for 8 yrs is higher than the highest MES 9-yr rate. The DOS CMR CL-700 CA rate 18 yrs is higher than the MES CL-900 rate 18 yrs. The DOS CMR CL-705 CA rate - 18 yrs. - is higher that the highest MES (DOS + 54) CL-900 rate - 18 yrs - which I show as $99.35.
The corresponding CMR FO rates in CMR's smallest jet exceeds the FO rate in MES's largest jet by a significant amount.
I would say your J.O. is blowing smoke. Apart from what I told you above, CMR has never had a pay scale for the CL-900 or equivalent and still does not. This new rate that we will get (if it passes) is for the CL-705 configured with no more than 76 seats. The current Delta PWA scope clause would not permit CMR to operate the CL-900.
Additionally CMR pays schedule or block whichever is greater. There are no 'segment times'. CMR will retain full displacement (cancellation) pay and credit, premium pay (1.5) for all open time, extensions and time on off days. CMR will also retain its duty and trip rigs and its min. day. None of those things exist in the MES contract. Either JO is intentionally stupid or he thinks you all are.
We lost our B plan (big hit) but will get a partial settlement of $82.5 million up front to help offset the loss; took a cut in perdiem (still higher than MES by .30/hr); retained DH credit but lost 25% of DH pay. Annual COLA and longevity increments retained, but COLA reduced. Our FO rates were 60% of CA. They will now reduce to 59.7%. We retained almost all of our work rules. Lost some vacation and sick leave accrual. We recovered our longevity - some up front with retro pay some at end of contract. We picked up a profit-sharing plan. We kept most of the 401K match. We improved our Scope a little and controlled increases in medical benefit costs. The duration of the deal is 4 years.
Please don't misunderstand -compared to our contract -this settlement/TA sucks. Unfortunately, that's what bankruptcy does. It's management's method of shafting employees for their own errors. What really hurts is that CMR istself was never bankrupt - we're just being forced to pay a price for being owned by Delta.:angryfire
In a word, JO is full of it! According to the information that I have been given, the bankruptcy settlement TA does not contain any pay scales for aircraft with more than 76 seats. So, we have no pay scale for the CL-900. There is nothing to compare. If we should operate any aircraft with more than 76 seats during the life of the settlement, the rates would have to be negotiated.
We do have a common scale for the CL-900/705 & EMB-170/175 with a max configuration of 76 seats in both types.
Note: None of the pay scales in the CMR TA are for 'seat ranges' (like MES). They are all type specific.
The copy of the MES CBA that I have contains a pay scale for 60-76 seat Jet Aircraft with 3 steps - DOS, DOS + 36 and DOS + 54. I believe the MES CBA is currently at the DOS + 36 scale. That is the scale that can be compared to our CL-705, not your 900 scale.
If my information about the MES agreement is accurate, the comparable CA rate [for 76 seats] would be MES's 18-yr rate, which I read as $88.97. The MES rate for DOS + 54 - I read as 90.75 [CMR scales do not exceed 18 yrs.]
On the FO side of the fence, the MES rates for the same time frames [9-yr long.] are DOS + 36 - $36.45 and DOS + 54 - $37.18.
The current DOS + 36 rate for Jets >76 Seats <86k lbs. (18 & 9 yrs CA/FO) which I assume is the CL-900 are $97.40 & $36.45 respectively.
As of DOS in the settlement TA, the CMR CL65-200 CA rate is higher than the MES 76 seat rate. The DOS CMR CL65-200 FO rate for 8 yrs is higher than the highest MES 9-yr rate. The DOS CMR CL-700 CA rate 18 yrs is higher than the MES CL-900 rate 18 yrs. The DOS CMR CL-705 CA rate - 18 yrs. - is higher that the highest MES (DOS + 54) CL-900 rate - 18 yrs - which I show as $99.35.
The corresponding CMR FO rates in CMR's smallest jet exceeds the FO rate in MES's largest jet by a significant amount.
I would say your J.O. is blowing smoke. Apart from what I told you above, CMR has never had a pay scale for the CL-900 or equivalent and still does not. This new rate that we will get (if it passes) is for the CL-705 configured with no more than 76 seats. The current Delta PWA scope clause would not permit CMR to operate the CL-900.
Additionally CMR pays schedule or block whichever is greater. There are no 'segment times'. CMR will retain full displacement (cancellation) pay and credit, premium pay (1.5) for all open time, extensions and time on off days. CMR will also retain its duty and trip rigs and its min. day. None of those things exist in the MES contract. Either JO is intentionally stupid or he thinks you all are.
We lost our B plan (big hit) but will get a partial settlement of $82.5 million up front to help offset the loss; took a cut in perdiem (still higher than MES by .30/hr); retained DH credit but lost 25% of DH pay. Annual COLA and longevity increments retained, but COLA reduced. Our FO rates were 60% of CA. They will now reduce to 59.7%. We retained almost all of our work rules. Lost some vacation and sick leave accrual. We recovered our longevity - some up front with retro pay some at end of contract. We picked up a profit-sharing plan. We kept most of the 401K match. We improved our Scope a little and controlled increases in medical benefit costs. The duration of the deal is 4 years.
Please don't misunderstand -compared to our contract -this settlement/TA sucks. Unfortunately, that's what bankruptcy does. It's management's method of shafting employees for their own errors. What really hurts is that CMR istself was never bankrupt - we're just being forced to pay a price for being owned by Delta.:angryfire
Speedtape
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wmuflyguy
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Mesa operates their 900's with more than 76 seats believe(isn't it 86 or something). The scales aren't really comparable, because if we ever did get 77+ seaters at CMR we would have to negotiate the payrates per the TA. Lets hope we never get anything more than 76 seats.
What I still do not understand is why Comair pilots are voting for this or why the MEC would endorse a TA that is concessionary. Any light would be appreciated.
If Delta is going exit bankruptcy in April or May, why not just vote down the TA and fight it out once out of bankruptcy whereas the hands are not so tied by the courts? Or does the status quo apply here once contract negotiations begin? Could Comair drag it out as long as ASA has in that regard?
Not looking for flame here. Only curious how this would work.
If Delta is going exit bankruptcy in April or May, why not just vote down the TA and fight it out once out of bankruptcy whereas the hands are not so tied by the courts? Or does the status quo apply here once contract negotiations begin? Could Comair drag it out as long as ASA has in that regard?
Not looking for flame here. Only curious how this would work.
wmuflyguy
flunky
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- Feb 3, 2004
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According to the BK judge, the imposed terms would be the new status quo. So after we exit BK, we have to go through the whole RLA process, while working under the imposed terms. We are not magically allowed to strike after the exit from bankruptcy, unless the injunction is overturned.
Also, the pilots will not get a BK claim(82mil or so) if the company imposes. They are under no obligation to give it to us. That is according to the ALPA lawyers.
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