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Pinnacle & Colgan fix

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Ridgeback

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Posts
357
We have all been reading the threads on this issue and the theam is pretty much the same. Pinnacle guys want one list for more neg. power, although I think they really want into the Q400. Colgan guys fear any kind of merged list would screw them out on the Q400.

My question is would Pinnacle pilots accept a "Q400 Fence" in other words fence all present Pinnacle guys out of the Q400, Only current Colgan and new hires can be hired into the thing.

A fence would determine the true intent of the 9E piot group.

Thoughts???
 
We have all been reading the threads on this issue and the theam is pretty much the same. Pinnacle guys want one list for more neg. power, although I think they really want into the Q400.
My question is would Pinnacle pilots accept a "Q400 Fence" in other words fence all present Pinnacle guys out of the Q400, Only current and Colgan and new hires can be hired into the thing.

A fence would determine the true intent of the 9E piot group.

Thoughts???
Click to expand...

Thanks, I just spewed my coffee all across the screen!
 
Ridgeback said:
We have all been reading the threads on this issue and the theam is pretty much the same. Pinnacle guys want one list for more neg. power, although I think they really want into the Q400. Colgan guys fear any kind of merged list would screw them out on the Q400.

My question is would Pinnacle pilots accept a "Q400 Fence" in other words fence all present Pinnacle guys out of the Q400, Only current Colgan and new hires can be hired into the thing.

A fence would determine the true intent of the 9E piot group.

Thoughts???
Click to expand...

You talk like the Q400 is a 747-400. It is just an airplane man. Pay and QOL are far more important. The need for integration stems from wanting to not get bent over hard by 9E management. You need to check your SPS.
 
I think Colgan guy don't want a merged union with 9E because we fear we would be screwed with the seniority list. Come on what airline ever mergered a seniority list where people did not get screwed.

Also, we, at least I, don't care about the Q. Keep the dam thing if it makes you boys happy. I am content with what I have.....
 
Prop2Jet said:
I think Colgan guy don't want a merged union with 9E because we fear we would be screwed with the seniority list. Come on what airline ever mergered a seniority list where people did not get screwed.

We are going to get screwed...it how much is the question. it is easier to screw two seperate groups than one. It is pretty obvious: there is strength in unity.

Also, we, at least I, don't care about the Q. Keep the dam thing if it makes you boys happy. I am content with what I have.....
Click to expand...

Most pilot groups are not concerned with A/C type. An Air Line Pilot is an Air Line Pilot regardless of equipment. The type of flying Colgan does in TP's is quite difficult and respectable.

It is pay, QOL and respect. PCL managment has tried to dangle the larger or more aircraft carrot and we've not taken the bait.....
 
If it meant that Colgan would have remained family-owned vice all this BS just to buy this friggin Q-400. Well, they can keep the damned thing as far as I'm concerned. Most of us that have stayed here are here, because of the out-basing and dealing with the Colgan family hasn't been too difficult for most of us. This S.O.B. thinks he is going to waltz in here singing our praises and dangling the "Q" in front of us. Well, he underestimated the resolve of the Colgan pilot group. I'll quit before I am going to fly anything for that guy if he starts F***ing with our airline. We worked too hard to be a**raped by corporate greed, and ambition.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead
 
Kaman said:
If it meant that Colgan would have remained family-owned vice all this BS just to buy this friggin Q-400. Well, they can keep the danged thing as far as I'm concerned. Most of us that have stayed here are here, because of the out-basing and dealing with the Colgan family hasn't been too difficult for most of us. This S.O.B. thinks he is going to waltz in here singing our praises and dangling the "Q" in front of us. Well, he underestimated the resolve of the Colgan pilot group. I'll quit before I am going to fly anything for that guy if he starts F***ing with our airline. We worked too hard to be a**raped by corporate greed, and ambition.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead
Click to expand...


hey bud, I think you need to take a break from the forum for a bit. your posts are angrier and angrier. nothing has happened yet to our QOL. Anxiety abuot what might happen is a horrible thing. But in the big picture, it isn't all that important anyway.

but that is just my $.02 which i pretty much had to steal from my neighbor who has a real job.
 
It's not about wanting to fly the new equipment, it's about a contract that management willfully entered into and agreed to honor. The PCL pilot group has wanted a merged list since before the new planes were announced.
 
Theoritically a combined Pinnacle/Colgan list would be able to bid for whatever base/equipment each individual wants. I doubt many PCL pilots would want to change bases to fly a turboprop. There could be a few, but the numbers would be low. I'm not bashing the TP, its just whatever you would want to fly for that payscale and base structure. There are many variables that would go into a decision like that.

The same would be true for the Colgan guys. Would they want to change bases just to get in an RJ. It would be a totally individual decision. I don't think you could lump everyone into a certain pile. I really don't think there are that many PCL pilots that really mind that Colgan will get the 400, we just want a combined list to protect ALL of our interest, because management could care less.
 
redflyer65 said:
Theoritically a combined Pinnacle/Colgan list would be able to bid for whatever base/equipment each individual wants. I doubt many PCL pilots would want to change bases to fly a turboprop. There could be a few, but the numbers would be low. I'm not bashing the TP, its just whatever you would want to fly for that payscale and base structure. There are many variables that would go into a decision like that.

The same would be true for the Colgan guys. Would they want to change bases just to get in an RJ. It would be a totally individual decision. I don't think you could lump everyone into a certain pile. I really don't think there are that many PCL pilots that really mind that Colgan will get the 400, we just want a combined list to protect ALL of our interest, because management could care less.
Click to expand...

If that's the case we'll just staple you guys to the bottom of the Colgan seniority list and you have nothing to worry about.
 
Ridgeback said:
We have all been reading the threads on this issue and the theam is pretty much the same. Pinnacle guys want one list for more neg. power, although I think they really want into the Q400. Colgan guys fear any kind of merged list would screw them out on the Q400.

My question is would Pinnacle pilots accept a "Q400 Fence" in other words fence all present Pinnacle guys out of the Q400, Only current Colgan and new hires can be hired into the thing.

A fence would determine the true intent of the 9E piot group.

Thoughts???
Click to expand...
Flamebait. But good try at it.

If you fenced the CA's into their respective aircraft they were already in, then went DOH and opened upgrades into ANY aircraft, combined fleet-wide, you'd have an equal and level playing field.

In your scenario, you're giving preference to the Colgan pilots which isn't fair for the Pinnacle F/O's who, by scope clause, have a valid claim on that new flying and would like to upgrade after they've been F/O's the last 2 or 3 years.

Likewise the Colgan F/O's will want to upgrade on aircraft that are coming to THEIR side of the fence, even though it is in clear violation of the intent of the Scope language of the contract.

No one here (wisely enough) has tried to claim that the scope language was never intended to cover this. Everyone agrees that protecting themselves from a move like this WAS the intent of that scope, so a fair arrangement would have to at least be EQUALLY fair to both groups.

No integration is perfect. You have to manage career expectations as well as be fair to BOTH groups, not just one or the other.
 
redflyer65 said:
Theoritically a combined Pinnacle/Colgan list would be able to bid for whatever base/equipment each individual wants. I doubt many PCL pilots would want to change bases to fly a turboprop. There could be a few, but the numbers would be low. I'm not bashing the TP, its just whatever you would want to fly for that payscale and base structure. There are many variables that would go into a decision like that.

The same would be true for the Colgan guys. Would they want to change bases just to get in an RJ. It would be a totally individual decision. I don't think you could lump everyone into a certain pile. I really don't think there are that many PCL pilots that really mind that Colgan will get the 400, we just want a combined list to protect ALL of our interest, because management could care less.
Click to expand...

we will destroy this airline before we let this happen. mark my words.
 
Smarta$$ said:
You would destroy colgan before you would have an equitable integration that benefits both pilot groups? Explain, I am sure I am missunderstanding you.
Click to expand...

if by an equitable integration you mean a staple job, or a 2 for 1 or whatever you guys come up with then the answer is yes! we want to keep these pilot groups seperate. If ALPA thinks it's the best thing for us to integrate, then we won't vote the union in. We're not in the business of job security for other pilot groups.
 
smartelephant said:
If ALPA thinks it's the best thing for us to integrate, then we won't vote the union in. We're not in the business of job security for other pilot groups.
Click to expand...

ALPA and the PCL pilots are very much intrested in the job security and career growth of Colgan pilots...
 
Just curious,

Why couldn't Colgan pilots be Colgan Alpa and have a scope clause limiting flying to turboprops only and pinnacle pilots have a scope clause flying jets only? And no integration.
 
Last edited:
smartelephant said:
if by an equitable integration you mean a staple job, or a 2 for 1 or whatever you guys come up with then the answer is yes! we want to keep these pilot groups seperate. If ALPA thinks it's the best thing for us to integrate, then we won't vote the union in. We're not in the business of job security for other pilot groups.
Click to expand...

You know nothing what so ever about the profession you are involved. I am embarrassed for you.
 
rumrunner300 said:
Methinks you have a slightly over-inflated sense of control over this situation.
Click to expand...

thanks for playing, but no I don't. As I iron my shirt for my 8 leg day tomarrow which follows a 4-day, I know I have no control over the situation. And thanks for the offer, but i won't need any cheese to accompany this whine which I'm sure I'll be accused of.
 
smartelephant said:
thanks for playing, but no I don't. As I iron my shirt for my 8 leg day tomarrow which follows a 4-day, I know I have no control over the situation. And thanks for the offer, but i won't need any cheese to accompany this whine which I'm sure I'll be accused of.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't accuse you of that.

On the other hand, I wouldn't nominate you to Mensa either.

You would "shut the place down" before accepting a Date Of Hire integration that fences all the CA's into their current aircraft (thereby protecting career expectations) and allows F/O's to upgrade in seniority order?

No offense, but... umm... with that kind of logic do you expect to actually succeed in life? Most pilots are expected at least a modicum of intelligence and rational, analytical thought process.

Your diatribe doesn't exactly exemplify those characteristics.

And that's about as polite as I can be...
 
BirdCatcher said:
Just curious,

Why couldn't Colgan pilots be Colgan Alpa and have a scope clause limiting flying to turboprops only and pinnacle pilots have a scope clause flying jets only? And no integration.
Click to expand...

That would be fine by us, however it seems that the PCL pilot group would feel cheated if their hard work went to provide us, a company whom they didn't ask for, reaped the benefits. It's rightfully so. If I were them I wouldn't want this either. All I'm saying, and hopefully to no offense, is that we at Colgan are not going to accept a back seat in a situation no one asked for.
 
Lear70 said:
I wouldn't accuse you of that.

On the other hand, I wouldn't nominate you to Mensa either.

You would "shut the place down" before accepting a Date Of Hire integration that fences all the CA's into their current aircraft (thereby protecting career expectations) and allows F/O's to upgrade in seniority order?

No offense, but... umm... with that kind of logic do you expect to actually succeed in life? Most pilots are expected at least a modicum of intelligence and rational, analytical thought process.

Your diatribe doesn't exactly exemplify those characteristics.

And that's about as polite as I can be...
Click to expand...

I digress. maybe I have no place on this message board.
 
PINNACEL PILOTS!!!!
No one person from Colgan represents the entire group at Colgan air. So don't get too upset when a colgan pilot goes off because he feels like every thing he has worked for could possibly be in jeopardy. (shuttle-republic situation)

That being said, I think that we should all cool it a bit. Nothing has even been proposed. It is just a bunch of speculation about what might happen. Lets wait a see what actually gets proposed before we go at eachother.
 
Suupah, You've come along way in a short period of time. I agree. This will all play out without any of our input. NO one at PCL is looking to screw Colgan pilots. There will never be a staple. Everyone just needs to relax.
 
smartelephant said:
That would be fine by us, however it seems that the PCL pilot group would feel cheated if their hard work went to provide us, a company whom they didn't ask for, reaped the benefits. It's rightfully so. If I were them I wouldn't want this either. All I'm saying, and hopefully to no offense, is that we at Colgan are not going to accept a back seat in a situation no one asked for.
Click to expand...
That's certainly rational and well-spoken.

I know my previous coworkers, just had a nice chat with a bunch of them this afternoon in MEM on my way home, and not a single one I ran into wants to "staple" anyone.

If there are ANY Pinnacle pilots who are talking staple, they are in the VAST minority and are probably too junior, too young, too inexperienced, or a combination of all three to know any better.

NONE of the MEC members I've talked to are even CONSIDERING asking you for that. They recognize you have worked hard to have a respectable airline that has an excellent record in many, many ways, and would work to find the solution that protected everyone as equally as possible.

I, for one, believe that would be better than "burning down the house", but maybe I don't have a place on this board, either. ;)
 

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