FOs logging PIC

[Lear Wanna Be]

10 pages, can we make it 11....this is a good example about a thread about nothing.

 

[inthegoo]

If I am an FO sitting in the rear lav can I log that as PIC??

As long as its the left rear lav!

 

[bailey3083]

...did the guy in your avatar come up with that beauty?

I worked myself up to look all purtty for that pic n even put my best hat on!

 

[embdrvr]

Only log what you are comfortable explaining in an interview. Anyone who holds it against you for understanding the regs is incompetent.

Priceless. Just F___ing priceless.
You may view that person as incompetent but they will be the one showing you the door as they boot you out of your interview.

Taking the conservative path is the best way in this industry. I didn't log a minute of PIC until I was the one signing for the airplane which means after IOE is completed. I will never worry about how my flight time will look to anyone. There's no fine line here. When an airline asks about PIC time they are referring to time you spent as a captain designated as such by the company you work for. If your name isn't on the release as captain you're just asking for future headaches if you log PIC while not designated captain.

One of the reasons military pilots are preferred over civilian types is they can't BS about their experience.

 

[CFIse]

Taking the conservative path is the best way in this industry. I didn't log a minute of PIC until I was the one signing for the airplane which means after IOE is completed.

How did you get an instrument rating, or a commercial certificate, don't those require logged PIC? Or do you have some different set of "rules" for logging PIC once you're an almightly holier than thou know it all airline pilot?

 

[Rekks Inbound]

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot-in-command flight time.

(i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may
log pilot-in-command time only that flight time during
which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,
or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft,
or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the type certification or the
aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in
command time all of the flight time during which he
acts as pilot in command.

(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.


Sorry, CFIse, the above highlighted portions pretty much sum it up. You must be the designated PIC and must be appropriately rated (an SIC type does not count).

Spoke to my local FSDO about this. He stated that the spirit of the reg is that an SIC can apply the time towards PIC requirements for an ATP or rating. Can't log it as PIC, until you are qualified to sign the release. The reason SWA, JB and other airlines state that requirement on their applications is that is how their POI's have interpreted the regs. And they ARE the FAA.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[CFIse]

Sorry, CFIse, the above highlighted portions pretty much sum it up. You must be the designated PIC and must be appropriately rated (an SIC type does not count).

Spoke to my local FSDO about this. He stated that the spirit of the reg is that an SIC can apply the time towards PIC requirements for an ATP or rating. Can't log it as PIC, until you are qualified to sign the release. The reason SWA, JB and other airlines state that requirement on their applications is that is how their POI's have interpreted the regs. And they ARE the FAA.

Well first of all - is it your contention that the POI defines the hiring minimums for places like SWA, JB etc? If that's what you believe then, well, you're entitled to your beliefs no matter how wrong they may be. Companies define the criteria that they will use to hire, the FAA just wants the person to be qualified under the regulations.

Secondly - you don't read too well - you quoted exactly the portion of the regulations that allows a type rated commercial pilot to log as PIC that time they are the sole manipulator of the controls - or are you so ignorant of the regulations that you believe only an ATP can have a type rating?

Finally - get that FSDO opinion in writing - although I predict you won't be able to. FSDO's throw around all kinds of bizarre opinions verbally, but try to pin them down in writing and they go and check - and when they go and check they find out they're wrong.

 

[JPAustin]

This thread has GOT to be a joke scoffing Riddle/UND/etc. guys. No one seriously believes that the designated FO, ATP and Typed regardless, can log PIC time!

PIC is the name of the person on the release. PERIOD. The one and only Captain (thats right, there can't be TWO Captains up there) can be a greenest, wet-behind-the-ears, most junior, fresh out of IOE, first time in a turbojet, first time as a captain, and you could've been on the damned plane for 7 years waiting for a glimmer of upgrade because you are stuck in time right now with the industry the way it is, but you ARE NOT PIC.

This has GOT to be flame!

 

[Dr King]

I don't see why you guys are making fun of me for going to riddle and buying my job... I didn't do either. I'm just getting some good quality jet PIC time, thats all. Why the anger towards me?

Good quality PIC my A$$-- Your an FO

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

I log PIC all the time and I am an Fo I don't give a Rat's A. With some of these morons out here flying me around I feel it is the right thing to do.
Dr. King screw you.

 

[Dr King]

Dubya dont be mad your still an FO, after this cold winter they will upgrade half the company

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

I already quit I don't care.

 

[titans10]

You mean to tell me you have to log your flight time. After a time what does it matter.

 

[acaTerry]

Just keep pretending you're PIC....like a kid playing grown-up....
Now little ones, does that bolster your self esteem? Awwww, do you need more ritalin?

 

[COOPERVANE]

Well first of all - is it your contention that the POI defines the hiring minimums for places like SWA, JB etc? If that's what you believe then, well, you're entitled to your beliefs no matter how wrong they may be. Companies define the criteria that they will use to hire, the FAA just wants the person to be qualified under the regulations.

Secondly - you don't read too well - you quoted exactly the portion of the regulations that allows a type rated commercial pilot to log as PIC that time they are the sole manipulator of the controls - or are you so ignorant of the regulations that you believe only an ATP can have a type rating?

Finally - get that FSDO opinion in writing - although I predict you won't be able to. FSDO's throw around all kinds of bizarre opinions verbally, but try to pin them down in writing and they go and check - and when they go and check they find out they're wrong.

cfiSE,

I would bet you win every argument you get into. You make up your mind and will use every grey area argument to defend it. People finally give up because they can't reason with you. You think you always win, but you really don't. There's a CFI like you at most flight schools.

The FAA is wrong, the interviewer is wrong, everybody on this thread that disagrees with you is wrong.

Marion Blakey herself could tell you are wrong and you would take it to the supreme court.

Professional pilots are expected to conduct themselves in an honest professional manner. Logging PIC from the right seat is GREY at best, FRAUDULENT at worst. Please do it so you can argue with the interviewer.

It takes a man to admit you are wrong. Let us know when you grow up!!

I am done. This thread is dead to me

 

[CFIse]

cfiSE,

I would bet you win every argument you get into. You make up your mind and will use every grey area argument to defend it. People finally give up because they can't reason with you. You think you always win, but you really don't. There's a CFI like you at most flight schools.

The FAA is wrong, the interviewer is wrong, everybody on this thread that disagrees with you is wrong.

Marion Blakey herself could tell you are wrong and you would take it to the supreme court.

Professional pilots are expected to conduct themselves in an honest professional manner. Logging PIC from the right seat is GREY at best, FRAUDULENT at worst. Please do it so you can argue with the interviewer.

It takes a man to admit you are wrong. Let us know when you grow up!!

I am done. This thread is dead to me

Well if this is your version of a well-reasoned argument based on the facts, no wonder you're giving up.

 

[BlueCanoe]

So the thread about actual IFR logging prompted me to ask this question. I am a CRJ FO... I've been logging SIC time when I'm the pilot not flying and PIC time when I'm the pilot flying, due to the fact that I'm the sole manipulator of the controls. Does everyone else do it this way too? What are all of your viewpoints on this?

Further, the captain always logs PIC right? And we both can log PIC time at the same time because two crewmembers are required... right? Just like safety pilot stuff back in the private pilot days!

Please tell me you're drunk or high, because you can't be that dumb.

On the other hand, you can log whatever you want. You might get laughed at, but you can log John Deere time if it makes you happy.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.

OK, CFIse you dimwit, I've REHIGHLIGHTED the section in question. It DOES NOT SAY PIC, IT SAY SIC. Get over it.

You remind me of a student pilot I knew once. He finally got somebody to sign him off for his private. After he took his check ride, he was doing the debrief in the airport restaurant. I overheard the DE tell him that he passed, but with a restriction on his cert. He was required to file a NOTAM anytime he went flying, for a dangerous airman in the air. Of course the DE was joking, but I flew with this guy a couple of times, and refused to sign him off. He refused to listen to those who knew what they were talking about, among other things.

Oh, and my friend at the FAA is not a POI, he is a regular inspector and safety program director. And up to speed on the regs. I'll believe him before I would believe you.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[CFIse]

(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.

OK, CFIse you dimwit, I've REHIGHLIGHTED the section in question. It DOES NOT SAY PIC, IT SAY SIC. Get over it.

MAY log SIC, just as they MAY log PIC if qualified. This isn't rocket science, this is well established for 61.51 and every pilot reading this (including you if you are a pilot) has used the ability to LOG PIC while not BEING PIC - or if they haven't they're an idiot.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

THANK YOU FOR SHOOTING DOWN YOUR OWN ARGUEMENT!!!!!!

Yes, you are correct, they may log PIC if they are qualified. A type rating does NOT nessesarily make you QUALIFIED. You must have also passed a CFR 121 PIC Checkride AND be the PIC as listed on the release. This as per another FAA person (Aviation Safety Inspector) that I had on my jumpseat today. Wow, two FAA inspectors, from different FSDOs, with the same answer. Amazing!

And that sir makes you the idiot. End of story.

DUMBASS!

(you don't get a 'Peace')

Rekks

Oh, check the profile. I probably started flying while you were in diapers. Idiot.

 

[WWEfan]

LOL! You guys really swallowed this hook, line and sinker. 160+ posts worth! This thread should have never had a single response. It was entertaining though. Thx for the laughs.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

WWEfan,

You are right, however the only reason it went this long is that some unsuspecting newbee might get the wrong idea. I know, it's their responsibility to get the facts straight. Just flew last month with a guy who was doing exactly this, no he wasn't this CFIse idiot. Otherwise, he was a good kid, didn't want him to screw up his career. Honestly don't want to see anyone screw up their career, but I think I'll make an exception for this dolt.


Maybe I should take up a new hobby, like snorting nutrasweet or something.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[blueridge71]

THANK YOU FOR SHOOTING DOWN YOUR OWN ARGUEMENT!!!!!!

Yes, you are correct, they may log PIC if they are qualified. A type rating does NOT nessesarily make you QUALIFIED. You must have also passed a CFR 121 PIC Checkride AND be the PIC as listed on the release. This as per another FAA person (Aviation Safety Inspector) that I had on my jumpseat today. Wow, two FAA inspectors, from different FSDOs, with the same answer. Amazing!

And that sir makes you the idiot. End of story.

DUMBASS!

(you don't get a 'Peace')

Rekks

Oh, check the profile. I probably started flying while you were in diapers. Idiot.

He's right. You are wrong. Go look for my full explanation on page 4. Bump.

FAR61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

 

[AC560]

You must have also passed a CFR 121 PIC Checkride AND be the PIC as listed on the release. This as per another FAA person (Aviation Safety Inspector) that I had on my jumpseat today. Wow, two FAA inspectors, from different FSDOs, with the same answer.

Just curious who wins in this instance the inspectors or the Assistant Chief Counsel (Legal Interpretation # 92-40) cited by Beetle007?

 

[CFIse]

THANK YOU FOR SHOOTING DOWN YOUR OWN ARGUEMENT!!!!!!

Yes, you are correct, they may log PIC if they are qualified. A type rating does NOT nessesarily make you QUALIFIED. You must have also passed a CFR 121 PIC Checkride AND be the PIC as listed on the release. This as per another FAA person (Aviation Safety Inspector) that I had on my jumpseat today. Wow, two FAA inspectors, from different FSDOs, with the same answer. Amazing!

Up to now you've been very fond of quoting the regulations, yet I note with some concern that you haven't quoted the regulation that would support this concept of needing a 121 PIC checkride and to be listed on the release as a requirement to be able to log PIC. Perhaps it's because no such regulation exists and you're making up all these requirements to try and justify something that you THINK should be true, but, in fact, is not. Have you considered that possibility?

 

[Rekks Inbound]

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

This is cut and pasted directly from the FAA website. The first highlighted semicolon indicates that both i and ii apply together, and iii states the regs under which it is flown. Which means, under 121, the designated PIC as per the release.

Yes, I read the inspector Generals' opinion. Too bad every inspector I have asked, and I will continue to ask, has disagreed with him. Their reasoning is simple. Think of it this way: FO takes off, screws up, makes a crater. Who is responsible? The CA, of course. Because the CA is PIC. You can only have one while conducting 121 ops. Period. I'm done with this thread.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[AC560]

Yes, I read the inspector Generals' opinion. Too bad every inspector I have asked, and I will continue to ask, has disagreed with him.

Legally though whose opinion matters?

 

[Blucher]

How has this thread gone on this long? Don't your companies drug test you guys? Log whatever you want. It's tough enough getting that first interview for your dream job. Real good chance you won't get called back if they find you falsifying your log book on your first shot. Something to do with a lack of moral character/honesty/etc...
Fly safe.

-Blucher

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Dude...at riddle if we flew at night over the everlades, we logged IMC as well as PIC turbine because our C172-X model has a supercharger with a "turbine" in it....Oh Yeah

 

[KCPilot]

Majors and others require Part 1 PIC.

FAR Part 1 defines the pilot-in-command as follows: "Pilot-in-command means the person who:

1. Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

2. Has been designated as pilot-in-command before or during the flight; and

3. Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight."

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ogram/media/LOGGING PILOT-IN-COMMAND TIME.pdf

It's up to you how you can explain your time in the interview!