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SWA buys ATA

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Jim Smyth said:
I have recently flown with a few of the ATA guys that got hired with us. Great guys to work with and we need more! It would be great to bring the guys back that have been furloughed.
Click to expand...

Jim,

Maybe buying ATA will fill the gap with all of the close to age 60 guys retiring in the next 18-24 months. With the APA and ALPA against the age increase, maybe the debate will last 2-3 years.... Hey, when do you retire?


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
I SWA check airman buddy of mine said that he didn't believe SWA was developing an ETOPS program at this time.

Any intell?
 
Jim Smyth said:
I hope its true. I would be honored to have the ATA Pilots join Southwest Airlines!
Click to expand...

Well, at the risk of starting the previously mentioned seniority list wars that Capt Seth mentioned....

IF IF IF IF IF IF this were to occur, what would SWA do about the FEFOs and FECAs??

What about the guys who don't have a 737 type rating??

What about the guys who don't have the 1500 (or whatever it is) hours of turbine PIC??

What about the guys on the DC-10, the L-10, and the 757??

What about all the furloughees, both voluntary and involuntary??

Speaking of the voluntary furloughees, what about those who are very senior, and could come back right away??

What about the guys who have been turned down by SWA already, 1 or 2 or 3 times??

I'm sure this is more of a can of worms than SWA really wants or needs, ans is also more that SWAPA will care to deal with.

I think the majority, if not all, of the ATA pilots would not end up employed by SWA.
 
One issue, not discussed yet, that would have to be resolved is ATA has many pilots without B737 types flying the airplane. We also have CA on the B737 that don't have 1300 hrs. TPIC yet, either. These were PFE upgrades that spent a little time in the right seat and were allowed to upgrade since May of 2005. This would be a big deal for SWAPA to resolve if there were a merger/fragmentation of some type.

I had heard once that SWA was looking at B757's, on the cheap, hoping that they maybe looking to do Int'l and HI with these airplanes. Unfortunately, there's no such thing, and they still would have to get their own ETOPS. PHX and LAS to HI ain't gonna happen on any B737, and LAS is the most popular destination for Hawaiians. Many of them have moved their to find "affordable" housing. This is a huge market that SWA would be foolish to walk away from.

Of course, stranger things have happened.
 
Pickle,

To attempt to answer your what ifs.
Click to expand...

Operated as a wholly owned subsidiary, you will just keep all the ATA misfits at ATA operating for SWA.

I love being an ATA misfit.
 
Pickle said:
Well, at the risk of starting the previously mentioned seniority list wars that Capt Seth mentioned....

IF IF IF IF IF IF this were to occur, what would SWA do about the FEFOs and FECAs??

What about the guys who don't have a 737 type rating??

What about the guys who don't have the 1500 (or whatever it is) hours of turbine PIC??

What about the guys on the DC-10, the L-10, and the 757??

What about all the furloughees, both voluntary and involuntary??

Speaking of the voluntary furloughees, what about those who are very senior, and could come back right away??

What about the guys who have been turned down by SWA already, 1 or 2 or 3 times??

I'm sure this is more of a can of worms than SWA really wants or needs, ans is also more that SWAPA will care to deal with.

I think the majority, if not all, of the ATA pilots would not end up employed by SWA.
Click to expand...

I'll play.

1. Any merger would probably follow pretty close to the Morris Air deal. I'm sure there were pilots there without 1000 TPIC, and I know of a few that didn't have types and a couple that were fired from SWA and went to Morris. This was from one of your pilots I talked to way back when. If they don't have the time? Oh well. Get it and SWA will interview you right away. No type? Well, get it! Isn't that what was done with Morris? SWA could take just those crews qualified on the B737.

2. Fleets. As I've mentioned before, the B757 is a very capable aircraft. At least until something more favorable comes down the pike, say B787. The L10's will be gone soon. DC-10's and maybe B757-300's could be fragmented off to World/NA or Omni. They could just take the certificate, the B737-800's (not the POS -300's) and crews to maintain the certificate and be done with it.

3. Furloughees are still on the list. If SWA staples, as they've always done, then that isn't a problem.

4. Rejectees? I'm one of them. Don't see that as an issue since SWA has hired pilots after multiple attempts.

SWAPA and SWA Management could work it out and not depart from their traditional hiring practices. Just about every pilot at ATA was a captain at ATA at one time. There were a few FO's that bypassed upgrade and we've already discussed the FE to CA issue.

I think it would go smoother, should this ever take place, if longevity was respected, i.e. for the purposes of pay, vestment, vacations. I'm in my ninth year. A 9 year SWA FO makes more than a 12 year CA on the B737 at ATA. :eek:
 
atafan said:
Pickle,



Operated as a wholly owned subsidiary, you will just keep all the ATA misfits at ATA operating for SWA.

I love being an ATA misfit.
Click to expand...

I don't! It's bad enough no one outside HI and the military knows who we are.

This would never work. DAL started this whole thing in 1996 by not scoping in the RJ's. What I understand about SWAPA scope, this will never fly.
 
HalinTexas said:
I don't! It's bad enough no one outside HI and the military knows who we are.
Click to expand...

Don't feel bad, Hal. Last Saturday I was sitting in the SFO Sheraton Crew Room before my show (I was in full uniform). There was a UAL FO (nice lady, obviously a recent recall) there who asked me who I flew for. I told her 'AirTran' and she responded 'you mean ATA'?

She had never heard of AirTran.
 
Did she have mousy black hair with an oily sheen that drooped out of her lid.. ? OH... and was wearing Doc Martins.....All in good fun.. of course.
 
njcapt said:
Don't feel bad, Hal. Last Saturday I was sitting in the SFO Sheraton Crew Room before my show (I was in full uniform). There was a UAL FO (nice lady, obviously a recent recall) there who asked me who I flew for. I told her 'AirTran' and she responded 'you mean ATA'?

She had never heard of AirTran.
Click to expand...

Oh, man. :rolleyes:
 
NOT A MERGER:


Types of acquisition

An acquisition can take the form of a purchase of the stock or other equity interests of the target entity, or the acquisition of all or a substantial amount of its assets.

Asset purchases - in an asset purchase the buyer buys the assets of the target company from the target company. In simplest form this leaves the target company as an empty shell, and the cash it receives from the acquisition is then paid back to its shareholders by dividend or through liquidation. However, one of the advantages of an asset purchase for the buyer is that it can "cherry-pick" the assets that it wants and leave the assets - and liabilities - that it does not. This leaves the target in a different position after the purchase, but liquidation is nevertheless usually the end result.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why buy the cow when the milk is free?" - You want the beef too.

"... IF this were to occur, what would SWA do about the FEFOs and FECAs??" - Nothing. They are current and qualified.

"What about the guys who don't have a 737 type rating??" - Give em' 6 months to buy one. Just like new hires. OR...SEE BELOW.

"What about the guys who don't have the 1500 (or whatever it is) hours of turbine PIC??" - SWA makes the minimums. SWA can change the minimums.

"What about the guys on the DC-10, the L-10, and the 757??" - Not a merger. An asset acquisition. 737's sched. service codeshare only will be acquired.

"What about all the furloughees, both voluntary and involuntary??" -Not current. So sorry. Buh Bye. NOT A MERGER. An Asset Acquisition. 737 current and qualified only.

"Speaking of the voluntary furloughees, what about those who are very senior, and could come back right away??"- So sorry. See above. Bad roll of the dice for some folks.

"..PHX and LAS to HI ain't gonna happen on any B737" - 737-900/900 ER


Next....



YKW
 
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Whine Lover said:
NOT A MERGER:


Types of acquisition

An acquisition can take the form of a purchase of the stock or other equity interests of the target entity, or the acquisition of all or a substantial amount of its assets.

Asset purchases - in an asset purchase the buyer buys the assets of the target company from the target company. In simplest form this leaves the target company as an empty shell, and the cash it receives from the acquisition is then paid back to its shareholders by dividend or through liquidation. However, one of the advantages of an asset purchase for the buyer is that it can "cherry-pick" the assets that it wants and leave the assets - and liabilities - that it does not. This leaves the target in a different position after the purchase, but liquidation is nevertheless usually the end result.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why buy the cow when the milk is free?" - You want the beef too.

"... IF this were to occur, what would SWA do about the FEFOs and FECAs??" - Nothing. They are current and qualified.

"What about the guys who don't have a 737 type rating??" - Give em' 6 months to buy one. Just like new hires. OR...SEE BELOW.

"What about the guys who don't have the 1500 (or whatever it is) hours of turbine PIC??" - SWA makes the minimums. SWA can change the minimums.

"What about the guys on the DC-10, the L-10, and the 757??" - Not a merger. An asset acquisition. 737's sched. service codeshare only will be acquired.

"What about all the furloughees, both voluntary and involuntary??" -Not current. So sorry. Buh Bye. NOT A MERGER. An Asset Acquisition. 737 current and qualified only.

"Speaking of the voluntary furloughees, what about those who are very senior, and could come back right away??"- So sorry. See above. Bad roll of the dice for some folks.

"..PHX and LAS to HI ain't gonna happen on any B737" - 737-900/900 ER


Next....
Click to expand...

You don't work for SWA do you? Why change the rules for a couple of hundered pilots, while all the rest played by the rules? Not interested in employee harmony, are you?

I'll say again, no 737 has the performance to get out of LAS or PHX to HI. You'd have to go with many empty seats. the 900 has the same engine as an -800, 27k. I'd put my money on the 787 over the -900 any day.

ATA is putting B757's back on the LAX to HNL flights. Largely due to it's cargo carrying capacity. This is the real bread and butter. Our -800's with 158 full seats (2 class) can barely carry 2000 lbs. of cargo. Our B757's are 185 pax (2 class) and can carry 8-10000 lbs. of cargo, and they'll out perform any B737, any day.

As far as the asset aquisition you mentioned: can't disagree much there. My guess is that if it's going to happen it will be something like that. However, PHX and LAS to HI will have to be dealt with in some manner.
 
HalinTexas said:
You don't work for SWA do you? Why change the rules for a couple of hundered pilots, while all the rest played by the rules? Not interested in employee harmony, are you?

I'll say again, no 737 has the performance to get out of LAS or PHX to HI. You'd have to go with many empty seats. the 900 has the same engine as an -800, 27k. I'd put my money on the 787 over the -900 any day.

ATA is putting B757's back on the LAX to HNL flights. Largely due to it's cargo carrying capacity. This is the real bread and butter. Our -800's with 158 full seats (2 class) can barely carry 2000 lbs. of cargo. Our B757's are 185 pax (2 class) and can carry 8-10000 lbs. of cargo, and they'll out perform any B737, any day.

As far as the asset aquisition you mentioned: can't disagree much there. My guess is that if it's going to happen it will be something like that. However, PHX and LAS to HI will have to be dealt with in some manner.
Click to expand...

We've got a lot of great Morris pilots that didn't have the 1000 hrs turbine PIC time when we bought them. The last thing the GO is going to be concerned about is the resumes of the ATA guys. I think everyone is getting spun up about nothing here. Gary Kelly has said numerous times that the only reason we did the ATA deal was for the MDW gates. The codeshare was simply a tool to get what we wanted, the MDW operation. The codeshare has been a nice revenue maker for everyone, and most likely it will stay like that.
 
Hal,

From Boeing:

"737-900ER - The 737-900ER is the newest addition to the Boeing 737 line and was introduced to meet the range and passenger capacity of the discontinued 757-200."

and:

" Boeing decided against further investment in the 757 family and focused efforts on the 737 Next Generation series (specifically the 737-900ER which Boeing believes will be a suitable 757-200 replacement for most passenger applications). "



YKW
 
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Information like SWA buying ATA could not be released to the employees of the company or anybody else, due to SEC rules. This affects stock price and is considered inside information. I highly doubt some VP is going to give this kind of information out with the possibility of getting in trouble later.
 
Whine Lover said:
Hal,

From Boeing:

"737-900ER - The 737-900ER is the newest addition to the Boeing 737 line and was introduced to meet the range and passenger capacity of the discontinued 757-200."



YKW
Click to expand...

Of course they're going to say that, they're selling airplanes!

Another example:

Summer time MDW going to the west coast. On the B757 with all coach seating (208 I think) normal flaps are 20 degrees max power. Not too much of a problem. I didn't fly that airplane that long and it's been almost 5 years. But I never remember bumping passengers on these types of flights. The B737-800 with 27K engines (same as on the -900), all coach 175 pax limit. The B737 could never take a full load and would use flaps 25, max blast and occasionally bleeds off to get off the runway on an 85 degree day. We were lucky to take 165 pax under these identical circumstances. It was still better than the Airbus.
 
4 pages

iflyhigh said:
Information like SWA buying ATA could not be released to the employees of the company or anybody else, due to SEC rules. This affects stock price and is considered inside information. I highly doubt some VP is going to give this kind of information out with the possibility of getting in trouble later.
Click to expand...


I agree. If a VP did disclose information of this nature he wouldn't be a VP very long.
 
Standard head shed disinformation campaign to keep the minions talking about things that mean nothing so they don't talk about important things like section 6 or the ever pushed back EFB's, crew bases, 18 month training cycle, etc.
 
"... IF this were to occur, what would SWA do about the FEFOs and FECAs??" - Nothing. They are current and qualified.

Current - I'll give you that.

Merry Christmas.
 
General Lee said:
Jim,

Maybe buying ATA will fill the gap with all of the close to age 60 guys retiring in the next 18-24 months. With the APA and ALPA against the age increase, maybe the debate will last 2-3 years.... Hey, when do you retire?


Bye Bye--General Lee
Click to expand...

Lets see, I make a statement saying that I wouldnt mind Southwest buying ATA and you chime in with the above statement?

If we ever did buy them, they would be bringing there own airplanes to the party so we still need more pilots to fly the planes we currently have coming on line every month. That would be a good time to bring there furloughed pilots back. That could take up almost a year of our current hiring.

If you need to know I am in my late 40's and have plenty of time left!
 
We probably will go afte someone, just to keep a step in front of whomever Parker puts his sights on...
 
Whine lover, come to find is a chain yanker too. That's OK.

I remember a couple of years ago one of our respected captains had Denison on one of our flights. He said that Denison thought SWA would buy us in '09.

If this consolidation wave is dead, then I wouldn't expect SWA to buy anyone. If it continues or accelerates, then I'm SWA won't be left behind. That doesn't mean they will buy ATA, however.

Having said that, ATA is for sale, but MP won't lose any money in the deal.
 
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It's done........SWA buys Delta, General Lee becomes #10 from the the bottom of the stapled list. Nice job!!! Nothing like going from 767 fo to 737 fo!!! You sir, are going to disney land!!!!!!!! Welcome to the "bigs." Out with the crop dusters, in with the money makers.
 

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