Skywest and Aspen

[LVFlyer]

Two questions/rumors that I was wondering if someone could clear up for me:

1. How many people can you take out of Aspen? Was told you were extremely weight restricted due to climb performance and have to leave with a ridiculous number of empty seats.

2. Also heard that you can only go there day VFR, and the feds weren't real happy with the operation.

Anyone care to educate me on this?

 

[SSDD]

I don't know about the ORD flights, but for the shorter flights we can go out full.

We can do the ILSDME 15 day or night approach which at 1000/3 has the lowest minimums of any approach into ASE.

Don't know about the "ridiculous" factor, or the level of happiness of any FAA employee.

 

[rickair7777]

They only use the 700, which is the zippiest of the CRJ's.

The crews are specially trained; they have to spend a week in the sim just to qualify...but the know the SE procedures cold, so it should be pretty safe. They are probably better prepared to do a complex SE procedure than a lot of 121 line crews...

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Don't know about the "ridiculous" factor, or the level of happiness of any FAA employee.

Ridiculous factor.... always high.

Level of happiness of any FAA employee... always relatively low. After all, the short sleeve shirt/tie combo is most certainly bad for one's self esteem.... Oh... wait... crap....

 

[skypine69]

"should be pretty safe"

that comment scares me.

 

[FLYBOYMATTHEW]

I would like to hear from any AWAC or Mesaba pilots who have been operating in and out of Aspen for years. Would you fly a CRJ-700 in there? This is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[doug_or]

I would like to hear from any AWAC or Mesaba pilots who have been operating in and out of Aspen for years. Would you fly a CRJ-700 in there? This is an accident waiting to happen.

I'm willing to bet not a lot of ZW or XJ guys have any time in the CR7, so I can't really share your enthusiasim for their opinions on the subject.

"Accident waiting to happen"? Have I seen you on TV before? CNN? MSNBC? was the title "aviation expert" underneath your name?

 

[CFIT]

I would like to hear from any AWAC or Mesaba pilots who have been operating in and out of Aspen for years. Would you fly a CRJ-700 in there? This is an accident waiting to happen.

Your "arm chair quarterback reference" aside this training program has been well defined and the FAA has used this program as an example for others to develop special airport operation models.

Clearly Flyboy, youre an idiot.
Yes, I've been there and done it, more than most.

 

[FLYBOYMATTHEW]

Have you talked to a crew who has lost an engine on departure out of Aspen on a 4-engine a/c? They were $#'!!ing they're pants. I pray for the sake of the 70 ignorant passengers on board that this never happens to you.

BTW...interesting handle.

 

[rickair7777]

Have you talked to a crew who has lost an engine on departure out of Aspen on a 4-engine a/c? They were $#'!!ing they're pants. I pray for the sake of the 70 ignorant passengers on board that this never happens to you.

BTW...interesting handle.

I think you'te talking about aircraft with 5 APU's, not 4 engines.

The 700 is very powerful (P vs. W), vastly more so than 200.

 

[G2T]

I think you'te talking about aircraft with 5 APU's, not 4 engines.

The 700 is very powerful (P vs. W), vastly more so than 200.

The fact remains that you are still losing 50% of your thrust instead of 25%.

 

[rickair7777]

The fact remains that you are still losing 50% of your thrust instead of 25%.

Have you ever flown a moderately loaded or empty 700? If you had, you wouldn't have so many doubts. It's fairly, um... invigorating.

I'm pretty sure the FAA did the math on this anyway, lol

 

[bizzum]

I think you'te talking about aircraft with 5 APU's, not 4 engines.

The 700 is very powerful (P vs. W), vastly more so than 200.

Ever ferry a 700 with 1 engine inop? I didn't think so..... I have never personally flown a 146 or Avro, but I have heard MANY MANY MANY 146 stories of guys that I have flown with that have more time in that airplane than all of our total times put together, and losing an engine in the 146 WAS NOT EVEN AN EMERGENCY. They would do 3 engine ferrys all the time, so im sure those "apu's" had PLENTY of power to get that thing moving. That being said I am sure losing an engine on the 146 coming out of ASE WAS an emergency, BUT that airplane was more than capable of climbing safely out of there on 3 engines. I REALLY have a hard time believing that a CRJ 700 would have an easy time.

And to comment about the FAA not being happy, just had a Fed on the jumpseat that told us that the FAA is reviewing the CRJ going in there, and that there would have been NO WAY that his office would have ever approved that. FWIW

 

[G2T]

Have you ever flown a moderately loaded or empty 700? If you had, you wouldn't have so many doubts. It's fairly, um... invigorating.

I'm pretty sure the FAA did the math on this anyway, lol

Moderately loaded or empty anything is usually much better than a heavy one, that's a no-brainer. I'm not questioning the manliness of your 700, and no, I've never flown one. I'm just saying that losing one engine of 4 seems like less of an issue than losing 1 of 2. But hey, I'm just a lowly prop driver, so don't mind me.

 

[AWACoff]

It's the single engine balked procedure that is the problem. What do you do if you have to go around at 50 ft due to severe windshear and then during the go around you bag an engine. The 146 was safe due to it's ability to circle very slowly in a 30 degree bank. I wouldn't want to be on the CR7 in that situation. Bombardier told our company that it wasn't possible. I'm sure they wanted to sell us CR7s. I'm sure the Skywest crews are trained very well. How much info have Skywest crews recieved on the single engine balked landing though? Aren't you commited to land at a certain point per Skywest training?

 

[BoilerUP]

I think SSDD answered this question in the 2nd post.

If you can do DEN-ASE in the snow with 70 people and all their bags and meet the SE performance criteria, then more power to you...I wouldn't want to do it in a CL65.

 

[bmpilot2003]

Aren't you commited to land at a certain point per Skywest training?

Dumbest question i've ever heard! You're at 25 agl, airplane rolls out on runway are you committed to land?

 

[doublepsych]

what's this about?

I fly to ASE just about every weekend this time of year with a corporate operator. Two week ago, in the Aspen newspaper, there was a quote of a city councilman that was saying somethings about the fact that the skywest CRJ7s can't depart when the barometric pressure is too low? What is the deal with that?

Is this another politician/mass media type who doesn't know what he is talking about or is this legit?

 

[Erlanger]

I fly to ASE just about every weekend this time of year with a corporate operator. Two week ago, in the Aspen newspaper, there was a quote of a city councilman that was saying somethings about the fact that the skywest CRJ7s can't depart when the barometric pressure is too low? What is the deal with that?

Until recently all CRJ7s couldn't depart. This issue has been resolved with a mod to the Cabin Pressurization System.

 

[bizzum]

I don't know about the ORD flights, but for the shorter flights we can go out full.

We can do the ILSDME 15 day or night approach which at 1000/3 has the lowest minimums of any approach into ASE.

The only published approach into ASE is the LOCDME-E or the VORDME, both of which are not authorized at night, do you guys have your own approaches that authorize night use? Just curious....

 

[ArcticFlier]

The only published approach into ASE is the LOCDME-E or the VORDME, both of which are not authorized at night, do you guys have your own approaches that authorize night use? Just curious....

We have a LOC DME 15 with 16 notes such as special authorization required; special aircrew training required; special aircraft performance required; two pilot operation required; etc. Nothing in there, that I saw, that doesn't preclude a night approach. Of course I'm not one of the guys doing the ASE thing, FWIW.

A balked landing (after SENOW) should only be executed as a last resort
and only in the event a safe landing cannot otherwise be assured, i.e.
windshear, turbulence, aircraft on runway etc. If an engine failure occurs
after SENOW, a balked landing attempt may NOT clear all terrain in the
flight path, depending on the altitude at which the balked landing is
initiated, aircraft weight, and atmospheric conditions. Even with all
engines operating, there is still a risk that an engine failure could occur
during the balked landing climb-out. As such, good descent and approach
planning and proper procedure execution are vital in avoiding a situation
when a balked landing is necessary.​

​

Curious if this also applied to the mighty -146.​

 

[Oakum_Boy]

"Go-around is not an option."

 

[dojetdriver]

Ever ferry a 700 with 1 engine inop? I didn't think so..... I have never personally flown a 146 or Avro, but I have heard MANY MANY MANY 146 stories of guys that I have flown with that have more time in that airplane than all of our total times put together, and losing an engine in the 146 WAS NOT EVEN AN EMERGENCY. They would do 3 engine ferrys all the time, so im sure those "apu's" had PLENTY of power to get that thing moving. That being said I am sure losing an engine on the 146 coming out of ASE WAS an emergency, BUT that airplane was more than capable of climbing safely out of there on 3 engines. I REALLY have a hard time believing that a CRJ 700 would have an easy time.

And to comment about the FAA not being happy, just had a Fed on the jumpseat that told us that the FAA is reviewing the CRJ going in there, and that there would have been NO WAY that his office would have ever approved that. FWIW

You know why a 146 has 4 engines? Because they couldn't fit 6.

 

[SSDD]

Some of you guys just can't pass up an opportunity to sh1t on your fellow pilots.

You definately don't go into ASE with your head up your butt.

Yes, we have night authorization.

Yes, we have special approaches.

Yes, we have special training and special requalification.
Ground school
Two four hour sim sessions
Two observation flights from the jumpseat
Two flights in and out of ASE with a checkairman
A nine month committment if you want to bid ASE

Yes, a balked landing is possible.

Yes, we have special missed approach/go around procedures. And they are different depending on your altitude.

Yes, the maximum pressure altitude for takeoff and landings in the 700 is 8,000' so when the pressure was too low we could not operate. But Bombardier has finally come around and issued mods.

Could we have an accident in ASE? God I hope not! But it is possible. And those of you that are hoping for that to happen are a bunch of @#$holes

 

[G2T]

Could we have an accident in ASE? God I hope not! But it is possible. And those of you that are hoping for that to happen are a bunch of @#$holes

I don't think anyone is hoping for an accident. There is just some funny information out there that gets spread around and someone wanted an answer. Flightinfo may not be the best place to get an honest answer, but I think we've made some progress.

 

[613ka]

is there a pay override for going into ASE... are the overnights long enough to enjoy some skiing?? If not, then why in the hell would anyone want to go through special training, just to fly into a dangerous airport?

 

[SSDD]

Beats the hell out of going to a dangerous airport with no training. I bet it would have helped those guys that flew the GII into the side of the mountain.

How many corporate or fractional guys who fly in there have ASE specific training?

ASE training is a learning experience. Most of our sim guys are there to teach you something instead of just breaking your 00's.

 

[AWACoff]

I think it is a very important question. As explained by Articflyer, a single engine go around may result in terrain impact which seems to resolve the question of whether you are commited. pilot2003, ASE turbulence is common. There are 3 windsocks and it is not unusual for them all to be pointing different directions. Such is life in the mountains. Skywest recieves more training then we recieved at AWAC. I wish we had had as much. The first time I ever went into ASE the captain performed a go around at around 25 feet due to severe windshear. This stuff happens and you don't have 11,000 feet of runway to fix a problem. Fly safe.

Dumbest question i've ever heard! You're at 25 agl, airplane rolls out on runway are you committed to land?

 

[SSDD]

Maybe I don't want to know the answer to this, but Wisconsin had a lot more experience with ASE than we do. So, how many engine failures after initiating a go around from 25' did you guys ever have?

P.S. Knowing the history of the original engines on the BAC146 I may have just set myself up.

 

[AWACoff]

I hope skywest has the same amount we had...0.