Mesaba Airlines To Operate Crj900s

[RedTailSwinger]

The 100 seat market cannot be served by a 76 seat a/c... so I think there is far more potential for the 100 seat a/c at mainline than 76 seaters in the Airlink network. FO

If you charge more, the 100 seat market instantly becomes a 76 market. You can adjust the price to create the market you desire.

I imagine all of the DC-9 flying will be farmed out to the airlink network. From a management standpoint, it is the smartest thing to do. Expecially when you own the regional/s.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Actually, it's you that doesn't seem to understand. There is no pressure on the NWA pilots anymore. Management has no leverage. The concessionary agreement signed by ALPA and management was signed while NWA was already in BK. There's no hope for them to get another 1113(c) filing, so NWA management can't pressure NWA ALPA into giving more concessions. The scope is clear, and there's absolutely no incentive for the NWA pilots to give it up. Not only that, but the new NWA MEC is much more militant than the McClain MEC. There will be no scope relief, and I predict a vicious court battle over this with NWA ALPA coming out ahead.

No, I'm talking about wage recapture in the future. The additional overhead of operating more regionals makes less available bargaining capital at the mainline. BTW, management wins.

 

[DoinTime]

Wrong. If you read the applicable sections of the contract Compass (and XJ if NWA complies) have flow up provisions from the affilaite as well as our furloughed pilots getting jobs and flow down.

I've read all applicable sections of your contract and the only "flow-up/recall" provisions are for those who were furloughed from mainline. Your contract even goes on to say that pilot applicants from Compass will recieve no more favorable terms than any other applicant.

Before you cry about how bad a deal it is, recall the only reason XJ can get CRJ900's and Compass exists is because of a negotiated deal with NWA pilots.

I'm sure the XJ pilot group would reject the notion of operating these aircraft if it meant giving up all of their seniority rights.

Compass had to be created because no pilot group in the country would go along with NWALPA's idea of having a furloughee "lifeboat" on their property. The very thought of one pilot group existing as a convienence to another is disgusting.

 

[IFIxUmUBrakeUm]

so, nwa buys mesaba, shuts it down on a fri at 23:59 and starts it up on sat 24:00 and calls it compass. all the contract issues for scope are fixed

or

nwa buys mesaba, mesaba buys compass. again all problems solved--if i recall nwa only had to own compass for 2 years before it could be sold. contract never said it had to be a operating airline.

 

[Fly4hire]

I've read all applicable sections of your contract and the only "flow-up/recall" provisions are for those who were furloughed from mainline. Your contract even goes on to say that pilot applicants from Compass will recieve no more favorable terms than any other applicant. .

Apparently you did not read LOA 2006-14 which defines the flow program (excerpts):

A. General.

1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the Feeder Carrier Affiliate.


H. Feeder Carrier Affiliate Pilot Employment Opportunities (Other Than Laid Off NWA Pilots)


1. Terms and conditions for hiring FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE pilots at NWA are the same as non-FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE pilot employment as established by NWA.

2. FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE pilots shall be selected for employment opportunities at NWA in seniority order.

3. The number of and provisions for FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE pilots required to be in each NWA new hire class will be negotiated as part of the initial CBA between the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE and ALPA.

I'm sure the XJ pilot group would reject the notion of operating these aircraft if it meant giving up all of their seniority rights.

Fine by me if you don't get 76 seaters and are Saab only.....

 

[redflyer65]

NWA ALPA is preparing an expedited grievance on the placement of these aircraft. I guess it will violate their exsisting scope provisions. They had already told Northwest management of their position. Should be interesting.

 

[RedTailSwinger]

If Mesaba is a wholly owned regional flying 76 seaters (effectively replacing or supplementing compass) doesn't this mean NWA would have to honor the entire compass contract (i.e., PAY RATES, flow through, and recall rights to furloughed mainline pilots).

The pay rates for a wholly owned flying 76 seaters have already been negotiated (i.e., NWA contract), and should apply to Mesaba.

 

[contrail67]

Learn from the past....Express airlines...bought by NWA....orders for CRJ50's...massive growth...Change name to Pinnacle..IPO..NWA gets alot of money.
Mesaba....bought by NWA...orders for CRJ900's...growth, change name to Compass...IPO..NWA will get same result. Just my 2 cents worth. Just seems too predictable and easy for them and it worked already once.

They bought XJ because any investment into XJ will be a 100% benefit now...not 30% if they were still under MAIR.

 

[contrail67]

NWA ALPA is preparing an expedited grievance on the placement of these aircraft. I guess it will violate their exsisting scope provisions. They had already told Northwest management of their position. Should be interesting.

You might want to research your information....NWA and pilots already have provisions in their pilot contract for this....No scope is violated.

It is in the SJ language in the NWA concessionary contract. Take a look.

 

[Fly4hire]

You might want to research your information....NWA and pilots already have provisions in their pilot contract for this....No scope is violated.

It is in the SJ language in the NWA concessionary contract. Take a look.

You are partially correct. The violation is in NWA not complying with those provisions, not with XJ. The TA does allow NWA to purchase XJ and buy the CRJ900 - and they will be in Scope compliance when they adhere to the flow and hiring provisions for NWA furloughed pilots, present and future.

 

[redflyer65]

Contrail,

I'm not just making this stuff up. The Northwest MEC is already working on the grievance paperwork. I'm just passing along the info. I don't need to do the research. They are. And there is seems to be a problem. I'm not sure of all the details yet.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

You are partially correct. The violation is in NWA not complying with those provisions, not with XJ. The TA does allow NWA to purchase XJ and buy the CRJ900 - and they will be in Scope compliance when they adhere to the flow and hiring provisions for NWA furloughed pilots, present and future.

Don't forget payrates, and workrules as well.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

So . . . If Mesaba were to get the CRJ-705s, what does NWA scope say about who flys them, and at what contract? Are they just by default Compass rates, or would they be Mesaba contract?

And what does it say about flow (up and down)?

How many NWA furloughees would want to come to Mesaba, especially if they were to fly under our contract and not a Compass contract?

Would the flow apply to existing Mesaba types? Would it have that restriction that was proposed years ago that 1 out of every 200 (or whatever) in class could be from Mesaba. That would be useful. . .

So many questions.

 

[XJohXJ]

Well, this could either signal the beginning of a new era of unity and mutual benifit between NWA and XJ pilots, as per ALPA's shiny new visions of pilots working together, OR, it could be just another ALPA screw job, where the advantaged throw the disadvantaged under the bus.

What's it going to be? Your serve, NWA ALPA.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The purchase of Mesaba (or any "affiliate") is provided for in the Northwest contract. The size of the aircraft is not a factor in this case, since it fits within the Scope limits. There is a Section 1 issue that might be grounds for a viable grievance, but there is no way it should be discussed here. The language is shoelaced with other elements of the contract, and this forum is a poor medium for explaining them. The ALPA attorneys and Negotiators know what's what, and will give good counsel to the MEC.

I still believe there is a potential benefit to all pilots involved in this situation by having both MEC's declare a PID and announcing merger talks. Having the creditors and potential investors screaming at NWA management for answers and explanations might be a good thing for us right now. If nothing else it could force managment into allowing us to sell the rest of the Equity Claim to shut us up.

There is some risk in the process. At a minimum, it could distract the MEC and the pilot group at a time when the re-org or consolidation might demand our full attention. It could also set us up for a situation where we've added an "asset" (no slight to MSA pilots intended!) in the form of new pilots who are not contractually obligated to fly the new aircraft being purchased (CRJ900). The dilemma is that subsequently removing the new aircraft wouldn't trigger existing Fragmentation Protections (not listed as one of the qualified assets), nor would there be any requirement for NWA to operate Saabs or any other Mesaba-flown aircraft once the merger is established. Saabs and/or their lift could be transfered to another Airlink (Compass, Pinnacle) and the newly-merged Northwest would then have a surplus of pilots. ("Furlough time!")

Another long-range issue would be the next contract. There is already a bit of "junior vs senior" sniping at Northwest, and adding a segment that would expand the spectrum could make that worse.

The onus for change is on the mainline pilots. They are the Keepers Of The Scope. Suggestion that the ALPA Executive Council or Executive Board might object is not germane. Neither of those two bodies has the authority to overrule decisons made by the the NWA MEC regarding Scope. If the NWA MEC determines their Scope requires merging the two lists, Prater would have to put the MEC into receivership to stop it. It's similar to the NFL rules that limit which type of plays are reviewable. "Merger" stuff is reviewable. "Scope" stuff is not. [Note: That's a bit of an over-simplification I'm using to make the point]

 

[XJohXJ]

Thank you for a good analysis of the pertinent issues, Occam. I appreciate it.

 

[AvroJockey]

I just wanted to interject with a much needed timeout and say...

I feel pretty proud that I was the first to reveal this breaking news to FI. It would go as far to say that this pride somewhat compensates for the inadequacy of my pen!s. :laugh:

You guys need to relax!

 

[Occam's Razor]

'Nother thought: The NWA MEC's primary obligation is to protect and enhance the careers of Northwest pilots. The discussion on the MEC should be what benefits - long term and short term - are acheived by forcing the merger issue. I posted a couple of the potential liabilites because they don't seem to be getting much attention, but didn't list any of the benefits.

Some of those will benefits only in the eyes of the beholder. If you are a junior mainline pilot, just recalled from furlough, the spectre of a merger that would pile more pilots above you on the list is not good.

Due to the circumstances, it looks like NWA pilots will be the ones to decide if now is the time to make "wholly owned" the same as "one list". If they are successful at bringing Mesaba pilots onboard it will not eliminate pressure from the Airlinks! There will still be a Pinnacle and a Compass to be whipsawed against each other, and used to nibble at the smaller-jet segment of NWA flying.

Where all this fits in the long-term plan for NWA management is another matter. I'm convinced that management sees the future of NWA as a long-haul international-focused carrier. I think they would like to get out of the cutthroat domestic-feed blood bath (except for the 12-15 primary large city markets that would be flown by B757's and A320's), and handle that through lowest-bidder providers secured with commercial services agreements.

 

[redflyer65]

OR,

I believe you are exactly right about the international carrier with bottom pay feeders working for you. They know there isn't any money in the domestic market anymore.

I believe also that the Northwest pilot group will so NO benefit to them in merging a list with Mesaba. Even though the recent furloughs went to the bottom of any regional's list if they so desired. It will continue to be more of the same in that regard. Thanks but no thanks.

I think the only shot we have at a one list situation would have to come from ALPA national with pressure on the airlines in general. But even that's a long shot. We really need ONE payscale for the entire nation. Then the pay for departure crap would come to a grinding halt.

 

[Fly4hire]

I'm convinced that management sees the future of NWA as a long-haul international-focused carrier. I think they would like to get out of the cutthroat domestic-feed blood bath (except for the 12-15 primary large city markets that would be flown by B757's and A320's), and handle that through lowest-bidder providers secured with commercial services agreements.

Well, that would only be the loss of 508 positions if the DC9 were to go away.

Are you saying you have any knowledge of this being thier plans with the feeders to be the DC9 replacement?

I keep seeing very evasive commitments (by both MEC and NWA) to future DC9 flying, with comments like "any attrition will be more than offset by new positions on the 787, 330, and 757" Uh-huh. Except if you are on the bottom that's where you will stay.

Still waiting for those 1000 geezers to take thier pension and run.

 

[xjhawk]

nice!

Well, that would only be the loss of 508 positions if the DC9 were to go away.

Are you saying you have any knowledge of this being thier plans with the feeders to be the DC9 replacement?

I keep seeing very evasive commitments (by both MEC and NWA) to future DC9 flying, with comments like "any attrition will be more than offset by new positions on the 787, 330, and 757" Uh-huh. Except if you are on the bottom that's where you will stay.

Still waiting for those 1000 geezers to take thier pension and run.

now that they have most of their pensions, they should leave!

 

[AvroGuy]

when NWA has mesaba how does this fit into the scope? we are now a nwa company, not a 3rd party. whats the cap for an nwa owned airlink? what about flow thru?

American has scope a clause that effects eagle. We are onwed by the same parent but still affected by the scope clause

 

[Mesabi Miner]

4.5 crew per airplane (9 pilots per plane) Probably only 93 of the current 220 furloughed will return. Hiring off the street by mid summer.

And, future FO's, if you know what's best for you, you will avoid working for any of the Red Tail careers. Stay away - and I'm serious.

A. Friend.

 

[whaleroast]

And, future FO's, if you know what's best for you, you will avoid working for any of the Red Tail careers. Stay away - and I'm serious.

A. Friend.

Amen.

 

[captain dad]

I was lazy / content to sit at XJ for years and hope my life was going to get better. Since 9/11 it never did. I made a big effort to get out and did. I am still flying. I started my new job at the equivalent to eight year Saab Captain pay, (that's starting). Also I will never regret cutting my ties with all the NWA SCUM.

I suggest you all look really hard at other companies. I wish you all luck but you need to get out.

This expansion is good but it will take a minimum of 3 years to get back to where xj was a couple of years ago.

The downward cycle is over. If you want to ride the next wave now is the time.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Well, that would only be the loss of 508 positions if the DC9 were to go away.

The DC-9 is not going away as a result of a new long-range plan at NWA. It's going away on the timeline NWA managment gave the pilot group in '99. They've stuck to that "parking" plan ever since. They adjusted the DC-9-10 parking schedule by 6-months...keeping those jets longer than they predicted they would. They did a weird "panic-park" in '02, which was reversed later that year. They lost 2 hulls to mishaps in '04 that weren't planned (fuel truck and the "ram jet"), but the annual totals have been +/- 4 for each year since '99.

The trigger is 104,000 cycles for each hull.

They've been adjusting the number of operational spares in the system since '02, but ALPA has been able to track the firm number of aircraft in the fleet via insurance. A "parked" airplane is not insured...a "ready spare" is.

Are you saying you have any knowledge of this being thier plans with the feeders to be the DC9 replacement?

You mean other than what they've made very obvious over the past 4-years? Not that I can post. If you remember the Roadshows for the new contract, it included two slides that addressed the staffing impact of the new terms overlaid on the nominal fleet plan. During the Q&A sessions at both Roadshows I attended, a question was asked about future of wide-body and narrow-body flying. The answers to those questions was the source of my prediction in the previous post.

I keep seeing very evasive commitments (by both MEC and NWA) to future DC9 flying, with comments like "any attrition will be more than offset by new positions on the 787, 330, and 757" Uh-huh. Except if you are on the bottom that's where you will stay.

What's to doubt? The DC-9 parking schedule was posted on the Council 1 bulletin board in June, 1999. It's held firm since then with only minor annual deviations.

And from a pure staffing standpoint, widebodies require more pilots to operate for a number of reasons...only one of which is daily utilization rate. Augmentation is a big driver. In addition, widebody pilots tend to be older and more senior...and senior pilots have more vacation, call in sick more often, and work in management jobs (but hold a bid position in the category).

Still waiting for those 1000 geezers to take thier pension and run.

You and me both, brother!

I think we'll see an uptick in pilots taking the PERP once NWA exits Chapter 11, and they break out their calculators. In the meantime I keep offering to buy all B747-400 captains deep-fried egg yolks with lard sauce!

 

[xjhawk]

I am at the bottom of the list of the non-furloughed pilots at XJ, I think i am somewhere in the 550 number range. That said, we are a bit over staffed right now, but have a high attrition. Now after some simple math, I think with 36 new aircraft, I might (might)be able to upgrade to a bad memphis saab line in a little over a year. yeah! I cannot wait to live thesame crappy life i am living then as I am now....commuting to a bad schedule all for some much wanted PIC time to get out of here. That means I will be a 6 year fo transitioning to a saab capt....whats that in dollars......maybe 50 grand a year? Great! Better than the 29 i am at now..........wait! We are getting shiny new jets........and I will be in the pink turbo prop still....why am I happy? Oh thats right, all the majors will be hiring....or in the next down swing when i get my 1000 pic.............late night ramblings.....

 

[Ridgeback]

Sounds like you need to quit

 

[Fly4hire]

Well, that would only be the loss of 508 positions if the DC9 were to go away.

Ooops ~1016 positions, that was just F/O's :bomb:

 

[redflyer65]

XJhawk,

Take a look at the fractionals. There is a thread recently on 50 grand first year at Netjets. I don't work at a fractional, but if I had it to do all over I really think that's the way I would go. Just a thought.

RF