Logging IFR

[thesource]

I'm just wondering how you all show IFR in your log books, and when filling out apps. If I just show actual, my percentage ends up less than 10%. But keeping in mind that all of my 121 flying is essentially by instruments how do you log that. How do you break it down on an application etc.

For those who have done it different ways, any suggestions?

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I wouldn't spend much time worrying about precentages. You've been flying a jet, which means much of your time is spent above the weather anyway. Prespective employers will know that. I would worry more if my precentages were really high... Above 10% would make me a tad suspicious.

I only log that time which is in the clouds as the pilot flying. Even in a low flying t-prop, I think I am below 10%.

 

[blingair]

So at night, in the clear, at FL350 you aren't flying/logging instruments? I fly 99% of my time at night in the worst of Alaska wx in a crappy, plastic death prop. My instrument time is well above 10% but I have to dumb it down a tad so people don't think I'm a liar.

 

[rickair7777]

I'm just wondering how you all show IFR in your log books, and when filling out apps. If I just show actual, my percentage ends up less than 10%. But keeping in mind that all of my 121 flying is essentially by instruments how do you log that. How do you break it down on an application etc.

For those who have done it different ways, any suggestions?

In a crew environment, you can REALISTICALLY and legally log IFR when:

1) You are the pilot flying and AND
2) You are flying by reference to instruments AND
3) There is no discernable horizon AND
4) Weather is less than VMC.

So, no you can't log IMC just cuz it's really dark out even if you think the regs are vague on this.

If the autopilot is on, you still get to log it, since you are monitoring/supervising the AP.

 

[Windsor]

When your in IMC, count really fast then log it.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

If you see a cloud.... log it
if you fly in a cloud.... double it

just dont log PIC as an FO.....ever

 

[thesource]

Let me put it this way.
What are you using as criteria when it comes to what you log as actual in your logbook.

some examples from a few different people would be helpful.

My concern is that, while I'm logging true actual IFR, I might not be logging all that I reasonably could.

As an example I have 10,500 hrs now but only 600 actual instrument logged.

Thanks

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Let me put it this way.
What are you using as criteria when it comes to what you log as actual in your logbook.

some examples from a few different people would be helpful.

My concern is that, while I'm logging true actual IFR, I might not be logging all that I reasonably could.

As an example I have 10,500 hrs now but only 600 actual instrument logged.

Thanks

I have 4000 hours and about 350 actual. I did all my flying in the northeast in pistons and turboprops. I am so used to clouds I have a sheet across my car windshield. I log any time I am in conditions with no useful horizon or in IMC. I dont use a watch to get exact minutes but when flight is done I look at the flight time (not block time) and estimate the best I can how much of the flight was instrument time. I only log it when it is my leg and I am the manipulator of the controls even when A/P is on. Some days it is obviously easy when 300' you enter and dont see anything until break out at mins at destination. Very common in northeast. Other days you are in and out in both level flight and climbs and descents so I do the best I can estimating those days. I think it is the best I can do

 

[urflyingme?!]

To add to this what do you guys do about loging approaches.

Ex1. Cheapskate air, cleared ils 69R (clear and a million)
Ex2. Cheapskate air, cleard loc bc 69L (2000' cig, but vectored through clouds prior and during 1st half of approach
Ex 3. Cheapskate air, cleared ils 69c (100' 1/2)

I'd say 2, 3. Even though we broke out with vfr below, we still executed part of the approach while IMC.

 

[TNHillbilly]

I log the instrument time only when we are in the clouds or there is no discernable horizon; I log it whether or not I am the pilot flying because the airplane is certified with two pilots.

As for approaches, I log the approach any time we are cleared for an instrument approach and visibility is crappy inside the FAF. If it is clear and a million and we are cleared for an ILS I usually don't log it, but I know many guys who do.

 

[Yudso]

I log instrument time when the usatoday is obstructing my view of the horizon.

 

[blueridge71]

FAR 61.51
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

I have heard that only the PF can legally log instrument time, but the regulation doesn't seem to spell that out.

 

[Alchemy]

I have heard that only the PF can legally log instrument time, but the regulation doesn't seem to spell that out.

This is an ATP written question. The answer is that actual instrument can only be logged by the pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls in instrument meteorological conditions. I may be wrong, but I believe those questions and answers come from the feds.

I recently had to make a correction in my logbook because I had been logging actual as the pilot monitoring. The correction decreased my actual by about 25-30%. Once you get over 200 hrs it really doesn't matter much....you'll meet the mins for ATP and the application mins for most operators.

Do a search of this forum and you might glean some more useful info.

 

[The_Russian]

Stop!

This is an ATP written question. The answer is that actual instrument can only be logged by the pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls in instrument meteorological conditions. I may be wrong, but I believe those questions and answers come from the feds.

I recently had to make a correction in my logbook because I had been logging actual as the pilot monitoring. The correction decreased my actual by about 25-30%. Once you get over 200 hrs it really doesn't matter much....you'll meet the mins for ATP and the application mins for most operators.

Do a search of this forum and you might glean some more useful info.

The regs do not state anywhere that you must be the sole manipulator to log actual instrument. As a flight crew member, both pilots are operating the aircraft simultaneously. Therefore, actual instrument may be logged by both pilots in an aircraft which requires a crew of two. An ATP written question does not have the juristiction of a regulation.

In a crew environment, you can REALISTICALLY and legally log IFR when:

1) You are the pilot flying and AND
2) You are flying by reference to instruments AND
3) There is no discernable horizon AND
4) Weather is less than VMC.

So, no you can't log IMC just cuz it's really dark out even if you think the regs are vague on this.

If the autopilot is on, you still get to log it, since you are monitoring/supervising the AP.

See above. There is no such thing as "realistically" when something is regulatory.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Night and IMC are conditions of flight and as such, can be logged in a crew environment by both pilots.

 

[The_Russian]

Night and IMC are conditions of flight and as such, can be logged in a crew environment by both pilots.

Word!

 

[Alchemy]

The regs do not state anywhere that you must be the sole manipulator to log actual instrument. As a flight crew member, both pilots are operating the aircraft simultaneously. Therefore, actual instrument may be logged by both pilots in an aircraft which requires a crew of two. An ATP written question does not have the juristiction of a regulation.



See above. There is no such thing as "realistically" when something is regulatory.

Point taken, and I agree to an extent, but I did quite a bit of "flightinfo research" before making that corrective value. This was the info that pushed me to do it, along with several reports that various airlines frown on logging actual on non-sole-manipulator legs. Reference this post from 2002 F.I. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=2558&highlight=actual+instrument

The following excerpt from that thread describes the opinon of one Mr. John Lynch, reportedly an individual responsible for writing much of 14 CFR part 61. I have no doubt that the majority of FAA inspectors would likely share his view, although they almost assuredly would not be universally in agreement.

I should add in all fairness that John Lynch, who writes much of FAR 61 and maintains the FAA AFS-640 FAQ web site, takes the opposite stance of the information I have given. In his FAQ on the subject, he states that the PNF should not log instrument time.

The FAQ site is not endorsed by the FAA and is not regulatory, and for the most part, it provides an element of clarity for the regulations. There are areas of general disagreement, and I have disagreed on several points in the past with what is printed there.

Mr. Lynch states that instrument time logged as SIC/PNF is not useable for the purposes of currency (the response was written when 6 hours were still required for currency), and is not valid for the purposes of meeting the instrument time requirements for the ATP certificate. I agree in substance to both these claims, as the purpose of each is to provide actual instrument experience, and speaks to a different purpose in logging.

However, for logging instrument time, the fact remains that one is not logging experience with respect to manipulation of the controls in reference to instruments, but conditions of flight.

Mr. Lynch also states that he personally believes that instrument conditions in legal VFR (dark moonless night over the ocean, with legal separation from clouds, for example) should be listed as simulated instrument flight. I disagree, though by most counts, my view on that subject would be a losing cause. (As far as I am concerned, flight requiring reference to instruments represents instrument conditions, and absent a view limiting device, represents actual instrument conditions, while not necessarily instrument meteorological conditions).

Interestingly, Mr. Lynch also takes a potentially controversial stance that one does not require a safety pilot in conditions mentioned above, as a view limiting device is not used, although he states that such conditions represent simulated, and not actual instrument conditions. To each his own. I don't see his version being particularly defensible, except that it most likely represents the viewpoint at-large for the majority of inspectors.

 

[Alchemy]

And directly from Mr. Lynch's FAQ:

QUESTION: Regarding §61.51's definition of "operating an aircraft" an aircraft certified for two pilots is being operated under part 121. The PIC is "flying" the aircraft. The SIC is the non-flying pilot. Can the SIC log actual instrument flight time for those periods of actual IMC conditions when the PIC is flying the aircraft? Is the SIC considered to be "operating" the aircraft at this moment to justify logging this instrument time.


ANSWER: Emphasis added “operates the aircraft”. In your scenario, you stated the SIC was the non-flying pilot. So, the SIC crewmember was not operating the aircraft. And even though you didn’t ask, the logged time has limited value. It cannot be used for the recency of experience under §61.57(c) because “ . . . operates the aircraft . . .” (otherwise meaning hands-on, flying pilot, etc.) is required. Nor can this SIC time be used for meeting the ATP instrument aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159(a)(3) [i.e., “75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject]


QUESTION: I recently upgraded to captain and have a question regarding the logging of flight time. My question is: As the PIC, when I’m not the flying pilot, should I be logging night and/or instrument flight time? Obviously the approaches can't be logged, but I'm wondering if the actual instrument time can be logged. Same goes for the night time.

ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(e)(2) and §61.57; If you’re a holder of an ATP certificate, and provided you’re “. . . acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate” then yes you may log actual instrument time and night time while acting as pilot-in-command. But don’t read into that answer, that you can count the time toward meeting the recent flight experience of §61.57. Because you can’t. Those requirements are “hands-on-the-controls” requirements.

Now I'm not saying that there's not an argument to be made that you can log it all as SIC, I think there is, it just looks like the Feds might not agree, and the conservative approach is probably the wisest in these situations.

 

[FlySacto]

I only log IMC when I'm hand flying the airplane or the "arrow of blame" is pointing to me and we're in the clouds. I doubt that I've put down more than 5% of my total crew time as IMC. I just don't see how I can justify logging instrument time while I'm running the radios and reading the Maxim the flight attendant found in the back and threw to the dogs

 

[DrewBlows]

Now I'm not saying that there's not an argument to be made that you can log it all as SIC, I think there is, it just looks like the Feds might not agree, and the conservative approach is probably the wisest in these situations.

By the time you are acting as SIC in a two pilot airplane, you already have your commercial certificate, so the "feds" really have no reason to question your flight time, as there is no "Super Instrument" rating. The only people who would care are pilot interviewers. I haven't heard of any interviewers making an issue of "instrument" flight time.


PS. I can't believe it took 15 posts on a professional pilot forum to come to the conclusion that IMC is a condition of flight (like night). (I'm shaking my head, but you can't see me).

 

[Alchemy]

By the time you are acting as SIC in a two pilot airplane, you already have your commercial certificate, so the "feds" really have no reason to question your flight time, as there is no "Super Instrument" rating. The only people who would care are pilot interviewers. I haven't heard of any interviewers making an issue of "instrument" flight time.


PS. I can't believe it took 15 posts on a professional pilot forum to come to the conclusion that IMC is a condition of flight (like night). (I'm shaking my head, but you can't see me).

Super Instrument Rating? You mean like the ATP? I'm not arguing that IMC isn't a condition of flight. Personally, I think you should be able to log SIC non-flying pilot time as Actual, but the feds apparantly would beg to differ. That's all I'm pointing out. Do you log your time for your own personal satisfaction or to be in compliance with regs? I guess that's your choice....

 

[Jim]

Wasn't Mr. Lynch's FAQ page taken down a couple of years ago by the FAA because they were his personal opinions and did not always agree with the official FAA positions as determined by the FAA Legal Counsel?

BTW - the FAA Legal Counsel (who is the FAA's authority on interpreting FARs) says the key world is "operates". That anyone required to "operate" the aircraft by it's type certificate or by the type of operation being conducted can log actual instrument time. It specifically references the non-flying pilot. It differentiates between logging an approach (which requires manipulation of the controls) and logging actual instrument (which is a condition of flight).

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Sometimes it helps if you hear it a few times.....

Night and IMC are conditions of flight and as such, can be logged in a crew environment by both pilots.

Night and IMC are conditions of flight and as such, can be logged in a crew environment by both pilots.

Night and IMC are conditions of flight and as such, can be logged in a crew environment by both pilots.

Night and IMC are conditions of flight and as such, can be logged in a crew environment by both pilots.

 

[Alchemy]

Hey AmishRake, saying it over and over again isn't going to make the Feds change their mind. Do you work for the FAA? Provide me a link to an FAA document saying that both crewmembers can log actual at the same time and I will happily eat my words. Until then, I think I will stick with the more conservative approach.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Duplicate post.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

61.51 (b)(3)( i )and (ii) addresses pilot logbooks. Among other things required to be recorded for currency or aeronautical experience, it outlines the type of piloting experience which needs to be recorded. Listed under Conditions of flight are both night and day including any actual instrument conditions.

(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.

If you're logging time, any time, TT, whatever, as a SIC or PIC, PF or PNF, you will need to record the conditions of the flight.



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