Cessna 310

[Don]

Cessna 310 pilots and owners... How does it compare to a Seneca II in performance, maintainence etc...?

 

[FN FAL]

Cessna 310 pilots and owners... How does it compare to a Seneca II in performance, maintainence etc...?

I have significant time in 300 series aircraft, turbo and non-turbo. The Seneca is Ford Focus and the 310 is for purposes of the analogy, insert your favorite performance car here

However, regarding maintenance, the 300 series Cessnas will grapple for your wallet like a hungry bear would roll you around for the jelly doughnut in your pocket.

 

[User546]

I have significant time in 300 series aircraft, turbo and non-turbo. The Seneca is Ford Focus and the 310 is for purposes of the analogy, insert your favorite performance car here

Ferrari Marenello ... errr, although since we're talking C310... Acura NSX!

 

[FN FAL]

Ferrari Marenello ... errr, although since we're talking C310... Acura NSX!

maybe I sould have stipulated "domestic" performance motor cars under 300k?

I like the Seneca. It's an economy six place twin that has a lot of good points. The C-310 is a performance six place twin.

Where the 310 is quirky with it's dutch roll tendancies at slow speed, the Seneca is just as quirky in the greaser landing department. Seneca is simple fuel system, 310 is more complex.

I like them both and if I had to rent a twin for me and the wife to go visit family, the Seneca would be the more economical choice. If I had to squeeze six people and briefcases on a 1.4 hour trip with IFR reserves on a twin, the 310 R model with vortice generators, would be the cat's meow.

I was partners with a couple of guys on a turbo charged 300 series cessna and although the wife and I have a lot of fond memories of trips we took in that plane, we are glad it is someone else's mistriss now...because that biatch was high maintenance.

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

The 310R is a great airplane. When you get use to the performance, you can't go back to any other light twin. It would be like going from a Caravan to a C152. Just too bad they didn't put trailing link gear on the 310. You have to work at every landing.

Tires, vacuum pumps, and maint. on the air filter box seems to be the only thing that is pretty recurring. Otherwise, solid maint. on the landing gear system is a must.

 

[NuGuy]

maybe I sould have stipulated "domestic" performance motor cars under 300k?

I like the Seneca. It's an economy six place twin that has a lot of good points. The C-310 is a performance six place twin.

Where the 310 is quirky with it's dutch roll tendancies at slow speed, the Seneca is just as quirky in the greaser landing department. Seneca is simple fuel system, 310 is more complex.

I like them both and if I had to rent a twin for me and the wife to go visit family, the Seneca would be the more economical choice. If I had to squeeze six people and briefcases on a 1.4 hour trip with IFR reserves on a twin, the 310 R model with vortice generators, would be the cat's meow.

I was partners with a couple of guys on a turbo charged 300 series cessna and although the wife and I have a lot of fond memories of trips we took in that plane, we are glad it is someone else's mistriss now...because that biatch was high maintenance.

I agree with FN here. The 310 is a sweet ride...but...

The 310, especially the turbo, will make your large fortune a small one.

It is certainly NOT for the cheap. I wouldn't get near a beater C310 on the hopes that the cheap aquisition costs will let you squeak by. Don't get near one unless you have serious green to keep it up.

Nu

 

[paulsalem]

The flight school I instruct at has a 1977 310R. The thing is a Mx hog, its just old.

The control surfaces are very heavy, yet somehow sloppy.

The a/c ballons like a mother when you put flaps in.

 

[FN FAL]

I agree with FN here. The 310 is a sweet ride...but...

The 310, especially the turbo, will make your large fortune a small one.

It is certainly NOT for the cheap. I wouldn't get near a beater C310 on the hopes that the cheap aquisition costs will let you squeak by. Don't get near one unless you have serious green to keep it up.

Nu

Yea, they would have named it the "mugger" but the marketing department frowned on that idea.

 

[imacdog]

The plane does balloon a lot when putting in the first 15 degrees of flaps but it comes down great when they are all the way out. Great for those non precision approaches so you don't have to yank the power all the way back to make the runway.

I loved the handling and speed of the 310s that I flew. The turbos were quicker at altitude, but there wasn't much difference up to about 7000 feet. Lots of baggage space in the nose (R model), though the rear seats aren't too big. Single engine handling was good and the plane handled ice fairly well. Overall I'm glad I flew freight in the 310 instead of a Navajo or Seneca.

 

[FN FAL]

The flight school I instruct at has a 1977 310R. The thing is a Mx hog, its just old.

The control surfaces are very heavy, yet somehow sloppy.

The a/c ballons like a mother when you put flaps in.

Yea, high perf piston twins are high perfomance wallet.

Yea, old planes require some wrench turning.

I don't know how much the control surfaces weigh, but if they are sloppy that might help with negating P.I.O. or maybe not...only your mx guy knows for sure.

Balloons? Don't be so ham fisted...piloting is about the schmooze, it's not x-box for crying out loud.

 

[Photoflight]

If you throw the first 15 in right at allowable speeds it ballon up or shove you in the seat if you hold the altitude. Let 'er slow a bit more first.

We operate a few 310's and because they're older each airplane is different. Some of the will cruise 185indicated all day and never have a problem others will show 155 and break every flight. A review of the MX logs will certianly let you know what your dealin with. Never flown the seneca but avg fuel burn on the R model is 225lbs/hr and 175KIAS, 200+ on the decent is fairly normal. It wont decelerate in a decent so speed control can be important especially if you get dunked in somewhere on an approach. Its a fun but kinda touchy airplane.

The fuel system can get fairly complicated if it has the main/aux/winglocker tanks. Because you have three sets of tanks and you have to remember where you put the fuel and how to get it to the engine.

 

[Vik]

dont know what your "mission" is, but get a Piper Twin Comanche .. affordable, fast, decent payload.

 

[sky37d]

The landing gear for 310's needs constant attention by someone who knows what they are doing. There were considerable problems with the nose gear in early models.

Jerry Temple, www.jtatwins.com, has a lot of experience with them. They are fast, roomy airplanes, but as everyone has said, they can consume an enormous amount of mx money.

Best bet is a knowlegable shop, good pre-buy, and there is no such thing as a cheap 310

 

[paulsalem]

Balloons? Don't be so ham fisted...piloting is about the schmooze, it's not x-box for crying out loud.

Beechcraft seemed to get it right in the barons. Almost no pitch change with the addition of flaps.

To cessna's credit though, if you start to roll in nose down trim using the electric trim at the same time you select flaps 15, and release the trim switch when the indicator indicates 15 it works pretty well.

 

[Hung Start]

310's especially the R model were fine airplanes. The only real issue with the gear is it MUST be totally re-rigged once a year. Takes 2 guys about 4 hours to do correctly. If you see the manual, it is 3 sheets that fold out and show how to do it, step by step. And it must be followed. Two things, one, the main gear have a "trunion" for lack of a better word, that has a welded arm on it. Very weak link. The weld starts to tear, and then just fails. Up, down on in between. Both mains must be looked at in preflight, no exceptions!
The other is the nose gear, and this is simply due to bad rigging. Since the whole thing runs on pushtubes, there is an idler arm to the side of the nose baggage compartment. If the system is not rigged correctly, the nose hits down and locked before the mains. And then this rod just keeps pushing until the mains do lock. Over time this bending causes it to fail. If you get a nose gear light much ahead of the mains,, you are looking at trouble a' brewing!
Twice we had that ripped trunion in 5 years of operations (about 1,000 per year). Lucky for us it failed on the way up, and the main just fell locked. But 12 years of nuns and Jesuits had to account for some luck!!!

Hung

 

[minitour]

dont know what your "mission" is, but get a Piper Twin Comanche .. affordable, fast, decent payload.

What kind of numbers do you get out of it?
TAS/Fuel Burn

SE Climb (ISA Sea Level)

SE Cieling

Are those book numbers or experience numbers?

I had considered getting one a looooong time ago...but they wouldn't let me see the aircraft logbooks...and I was just a "Student" at the time...I can't imagine what an A&P would have found. Yikes!

Seriously though...at 160/side how well do they perform? I'd need room for me, 2-3 friends and golf bags or me...and the wife in the cargo area.

-mini

 

[Tinstaafl]

Don't expect golf bags + friends in a PA30/39. Maybe if you empty the bags & stuff them in separate to the clubs. A C310R - and all the C400 series with the longer nose - have great baggage room.

What about an Aerostar 600? That's the non-turbo model so costs are reduced a bit. Fast for the HP & even the last seat row uses upright seats instead of Seneca/Baron/C310's 'Bum near the floor & knees near your chin' type of seats.

The extended wing mod is worthwhile since it increases the useful load by about one person at the expense of 5kts (or was it 10kts? Been too long since I flew them) in the cruise

 

[Way2Broke]

Anyone have any time in a P model, with the RAM conversion? Does anyone have a POH for the P model that they do not need anymore. I am searching for one.

 

[RedGuy]

The 310 will blow the doors off a Senica as far as speed, range, and payload. But Like anything else speed cost money. I just drive em so I don't know the mx cost, but here's some performance numbers for you.

These are for an R model
Cruise 180kts @ 23 sq
Fuel Burn 25-28 GPH @ 23 sq
Range 1000-1400sm depending on what tanks you have
Full fuel payload aprox 900lbs
Payload with 3.3 hours fuel (mains full) aprox 1500lbs
Seats 6 adults uncomportably, 4 adults and 2 children comportably
Nose Baggage holds 5-6 golf bags

With passengers in the back 2 seats you do have to really watch your W+B, you will have to put weight in the nose in most cases with adults in the last 2 seats. Also the VG kit gives you and extra 180lbs gross weight, but also cost you a few kts. Personally I really like the 310.

 

[svcta]

It took me about 150 hours or so before I decided that I REALLY liked 310s. I remember the precise moment when it happened.

The control feel of a 310 is completely different than that of any piper twin I've flown. Heavier and more positive, I recall no slop in any of ours. They are a little heavy on the Mx, but we sent ours all over this hemisphere and rarely had one break on the road.

As a general rule we would always operate normally aspirated 310s at 10,000 feet, barring restrictive winds. It is a great altitude for that airframe.....180 true all day at 24-25 GPH.

The ballooning with the flaps is a result of having no style(sorry, it's true). Lead a speed reduction with the landing lights, depending on the model 310 they'll shave off nearly 5-10 kts, get flap speed and just start sneaking them in until you get the speed trend going where you want it. We used a 7:1 descent profile in this thing to keep the power pushed up and therefore preserve our engines, but it meant you had to really think through an approach.

A seneca II holds no challenge for a 310. I hate Senecas right off the bat, but a 310 is a pretty smoking ride for a light twin.

 

[Way2Broke]

Can someone enlighten me on the requirement of the Exhaust AD (00-01-16)?

 

[RedGuy]

I don't know the number, But if it's the one I'm thinking of it's an inspection of the exhaust and firewall to check for cracks. The one I'm thinking of only pertains to turbo-charged 3-400 series since the exhaust runs right infront of the fire wall and wing spar. I think it's an every 50 hr inspection for us.

 

[JimG]

I don't know the number, But if it's the one I'm thinking of it's an inspection of the exhaust and firewall to check for cracks. The one I'm thinking of only pertains to turbo-charged 3-400 series since the exhaust runs right infront of the fire wall and wing spar. I think it's an every 50 hr inspection for us.

I just had it done on my 340 (every 12 years/can't remember the hours) while doing the annual this year.

Spent $4500 on it.

Did the test flight with a mechanic about an hour ago as a matter of fact.

(I make it a practice to take one of the mechanics up on the first flight following an annual....if you know what I mean?)

 

[RedGuy]

I just had it done on my 340 (every 12 years/can't remember the hours) while doing the annual this year.

Spent $4500 on it.

Did the test flight with a mechanic about an hour ago as a matter of fact.

(I make it a practice to take one of the mechanics up on the first flight following an annual....if you know what I mean?)

Hey Jim, do you know if they're carrying the 400 series wing spare AD into the 340 also? Because that's really not much different than the 400 series. I was told the wing spar AD was due to cracking in the exhaust back by the fire wall and burned a hole through a couple of 402 spars. All but one of our 402's have had the wing spar mod done and at the same time they replace the fire wall with a stainless steel fire wall that I was told eliminates the inspecton AD. BTW why did it cost $4,500 when they do our 402's it's really just a matter of removing the air box and inspecting the exhaust near the fire wall, they pretty much always get it done in a day.

 

[JimG]

Hey Jim, do you know if they're carrying the 400 series wing spare AD into the 340 also? Because that's really not much different than the 400 series. I was told the wing spar AD was due to cracking in the exhaust back by the fire wall and burned a hole through a couple of 402 spars. All but one of our 402's have had the wing spar mod done and at the same time they replace the fire wall with a stainless steel fire wall that I was told eliminates the inspecton AD. BTW why did it cost $4,500 when they do our 402's it's really just a matter of removing the air box and inspecting the exhaust near the fire wall, they pretty much always get it done in a day.

That was rumored and I was warned about the possibility when I bought mine.

I had to get the exausts overhauled.

The stacks sure look pretty though.....(for awhile anyway).

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

.

The stacks sure look pretty though.....(for awhile anyway).

You must mean that they are silver, instead of that ugly rust color. Sorry to be the one to tell you, but that is only going to last about 15 hours or so. I was pretty disappointed when mine changed colors so quickly.

 

[Hung Start]

What you need to be concerned about, in ANY tip tanked Cessna, is the fact that right behind that pretty looking firewall, lies the crossfeed line. Now, all you knowledgeable wizzs' now that in the tip tank Cessna's there is NO way to shut off the crossfeeds. And also known is the crossfeeds go from one tank, clear across to the other sides fuel valve, located outside of the engine nacelle. So, if the exhaust elbow burns through (hidden behind a nice shield that is hard to inspect) you get about 1500 to 1600 degree exhaust burning a nice hole though that flimsy little aluminum firewall. Next stop,,, crossfeed line!

And, no way to shut it off. 50 gallons on fire inside your wing. Might be 100 gallons if it clips both lines. Did I mention that just behind the crossfied line was the spar?? OOOPS

Wings were lost. No joke. But just about every technician out there really does want us to live, so all the wise ones check that hidden exhaust bend like death warmed over. Just might be sad if the good guys who were privy to the mayhem retire, and the new generation don't know/remember what it was all about.

Hung

 

[JimG]

You must mean that they are silver, instead of that ugly rust color. Sorry to be the one to tell you, but that is only going to last about 15 hours or so. I was pretty disappointed when mine changed colors so quickly.

Yeah...that's what I meant about the "for awhile" comment.

It was a kind of a shocker for me this afternoon when I bent down and looked under the wing while pre-flighting it and saw them for the first time.

I've never seen silver stacks before.


Hung Start....

I know what you're talking about.

I had a little scare shortly after I got mine when I looked out the window to see a blue streak of "oil" coming up from right behind the left prop.

The only "blue stuff" in an engine is the fuel dye.....

In hindsight, I should've shut that engine down and cut off the fuel, but everything looked normal.

That engine was bathed in fuel and the cowling was puddled full.

Everything was blue.

 

[Way2Broke]

I don't know the number, But if it's the one I'm thinking of it's an inspection of the exhaust and firewall to check for cracks. The one I'm thinking of only pertains to turbo-charged 3-400 series since the exhaust runs right infront of the fire wall and wing spar. I think it's an every 50 hr inspection for us.

That would be the one, every 50 hours. Is there a solution to keep from be a reoccurring AD? Is it every 50 hours or every 30 days, or is it just every 50 hours?

 

[icefr8dawg]

All you would have to do is fly the two and you'd fall in love with the far more useful 310. MUCH better ride in turbulance, the dutch role gets programmed out of your hands in like two hours. Lots of power. Like falcon vs. Gulfstream. 310's just feel like a real plane.
As an FYI you can tell the true age of a 310 by looking at the rivet lines on the spar outboard of the engines. As they get older and more worn you'll see more replaced by the cherry rivet and PRC procedure most 310 mx's know about. The really worn ones have the top rivets working. In one 12,000 hour case I saw structural screws replace inboard rivets. Ask a mechanic which engine he'd rather work on, the 470 or 520's that power a 310 or the little turbo six in the seneca. Something you don't see mentioned is the econo cruise setting in the R model is pretty lean. Like 20gph/160ktas.

I've probably got 500 hours seneca II and 1000 hours in a K-R model 310's.