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Trouble with PAX

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earhart

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2006
Posts
916
We had a Moscow-London trip over Xmas with important clients as PAX. While they were not officially interfering with the crew they were drunk and very disorderely and really troublesome for our FA. We are a major corp and these are important clients- my question is- should I report the actions of these idiots to the top brass or leave well alone?
 
Boy, that is a tough situation. Will you be flying the paxs, again? Could you tell the CP and then let him make the decision to tell or not tell the top brass. What were the paxs doing?
 
At the very least talk to your CP or DO. If you don't have to fly them again that you know of, I would leave it alone. But at least if you tell someone, if the time comes that you have to fly them again, you and everyone else will be prepared. If they are trouble on the way back, and you make it all the way to the drop off, I would tell your higher ups to never accept a trip for them ever again. If you have to land early it will pan out on its own. Who cares how important the client is. If they endanger the flight they are hardly worth it.

Just my opinion.
 
My co- Cap and I told the CP in detail but he has left it up to us if we wish to take it further. The guys were really drunk, running round the cabin, throwing food, making sexual remarks to the FA (although no touching) and generally being obnoxious. Drunk is no excuse but they are important for the company.
 
PS Our FA was in tears after the flight but values her job too much to complain. I said I would support her but she has decided to leave it and call in sick if called to fly with them again.
 
PS Our FA was in tears after the flight but values her job too much to complain. I said I would support her but she has decided to leave it and call in sick if called to fly with them again.

You need to document this, so if it happens again (maybe another crew) there is already a written complaint. It might have just been an isolated event, but still talk to someone and get it documented.
 
Sounds like your CP is a real leader.Those guys (pax) sound like the type that need to be confronted in the parking lot. By the way in my experience the people at the very top of your company don't want your FA sexually harassed in the work place.Just ask your legal department.
 
Thanks for all he advice/replies. Our corp is a large one and any negative publicity might reach the press- I am not afraid of reporting but written complaints go up the chain and may cause a real big problem. Although I did ask the passengers to behave it is the FA who suffered the most and I would need her support to continue. It is a tough situation.
 
Were there any other representatives of your company on board?

While I don't have any experience with this sort of thing in a corporate flight department environment, if you strip that away, and take it on its face what they did-

They were abusing one of your employees. They were taking damaging company equipment. They were diplaying a total lack of respect for your company, it's assets and employees. If this occured not in the cabin of the company jet, but in a board room would it be appropriate? Or if they treated a female executive like that at a golf outing? Or even the receptionist? Hell no! So why is it ok to do it to a company FA?

I don't know what level employees they are with your client, but at the very least I'm sure THEIR bosses would like to know how they respect other companies.

A good manager looks out for those underneath them, and their department. They abused your FA and reduced her to tears. I think you owe it to her to bring this incident to your boss's attention; leave it up to them if they want to persue this further. If she's afraid of losing her job, then cover for her. Tell them she didn't want to go forward with it, but that you felt it was your duty to bring it to their attention. They may make the decision that the client is too important to piss off, or they may be so disgusted with them that they'll make it known that this sort of behavior is not appropriate.

But let THEM make that call. Just my $0.25 ($0.02, adjusted for inflation)
 
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Were there any other representatives of your company on board?

While I don't have any experience with this sort of thing in a corporate flight department environment, if you strip that away, and take it on its face what they did-

They were abusing one of your employees. They were taking damaging company equipment. They were diplaying a total lack of respect for your company, it's assets and employees. If this occured not in the cabin of the company jet, but in a board room would it be appropriate? Or if they treated a female executive like that at a golf outing? Or even the receptionist? Hell no! So why is it ok to do it to a company FA?

I don't know what level employees they are with your client, but at the very least I'm sure THEIR bosses would like to know how they respect other companies.

A good manager looks out for those underneath them, and their department. They abused your FA and reduced her to tears. I think you owe it to her to bring this incident to your boss's attention; leave it up to them if they want to persue this further. If she's afraid of losing her job, then cover for her. Tell them she didn't want to go forward with it, but that you felt it was your duty to bring it to their attention. They may make the decision that the client is too important to piss off, or they may be so disgusted with them that they'll make it known that this sort of behavior is not appropriate.

But let THEM make that call. Just my $0.25 ($0.02, adjusted for inflation)

Thanks momalley81. You're right, of course, but I don't want to proceed without our FA.
In answer to your question there were no company reps aboard (not unusual for us) and they are a major client based in Moscow.
 
PS Our FA was in tears after the flight but values her job too much to complain. I said I would support her but she has decided to leave it and call in sick if called to fly with them again.

I think your FA is the problem. Tell her to be a crewmember and take charge. She CANNOT get fired for this. If she does, your company will get even worse sexual harrasment publicity.

( just make sure everything is documented....names and dates)
 
I think your FA is the problem. Tell her to be a crewmember and take charge. She CANNOT get fired for this. If she does, your company will get even worse sexual harrasment publicity.

( just make sure everything is documented....names and dates)

Respectfully, I disagree that our FA is the problem. I understand she cannot get fired, but negative reporting of major clients isn't that easy. If we file a report it automatically goes to legal/ HR and on up the chain. She is naturally reticent to take it further.
 
your FA just got her big pay day, she should get a lawyer and get a law suit going! cha-ching!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Respectfully, I disagree that our FA is the problem. I understand she cannot get fired, but negative reporting of major clients isn't that easy. If we file a report it automatically goes to legal/ HR and on up the chain. She is naturally reticent to take it further.

If your company is as "big and important" as you play it up, I am sure that they would like to hear her story.
 
your FA just got her big pay day, she should get a lawyer and get a law suit going! cha-ching!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Maybe this is "her lottery winner". Maybe she doesnt want you to talk so she can sue you and the company. By speaking up, you might be helping yourself as well. I am guessing that they would pay her off to keep this out of the media.
 
If your company is as "big and important" as you play it up, I am sure that they would like to hear her story.

I think your missing the point. It's not about a 'big and important' company (although I wasn't trying to sound like that) but rather asking for advice from my fellow part 91 pilots. I have heard your opinion and I thank you but perhaps others have different views or have been in similar situations and can offer advice.
 
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By the way in most places her immediate supervisor is also responsible in providing a safe and hassle free work environment. Sounds like that may be you if your the Capt. If you didn't step in during the trip now may be the time.
 
PS Our FA was in tears after the flight but values her job too much to complain. I said I would support her but she has decided to leave it and call in sick if called to fly with them again.

Calling in sick will awake a sleeping giant. Do you not see the amount of financial liability that all of you are wantonly leaving the company exposed to because someone takes too much pride in their job and no pride in themselves? Will getting fired make the F/A feel better? I'll explain:

The next F/A is going to have the same problems with these people. I assume it will be a contract F/A? I ASSURE you, she WILL complain and WILL get a Lawyer and sue both companies for sexual harassment.

You know what happens next?

The powers that be will find out this is not the 1st time it happened. It will be discovered that the CP, F/A, and crew of the previous flight all conspired (that's what you did) to cover up the 1st incident. Though your intenetion was not deceit, it was still covered up. If the reporting sexual harassment is optional at your company, and I suspect that it is not, then you all are off the hook. If not, get that resume shined up.

You should start by EMAILING on the comapny email the CP and pressing him to take this forward. You have thought long and hard about this and you cannot, in good faith, just drop it. Explain to him that he is the department leader and this situation is serious enough to warrant him taking this information and reporting it. I sure this loser CP says "my airplane" when talking about it anyways, so be sure you tell him this serious episode happened on HIS airplane. Let him know that any response would be appreciate via a reply email.

Failing to report this situation will cause more trouble that it is worth.
 
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Calling in sick will awake a sleeping giant. The next F/A is going to have the same problems with these people. I assume it will be a contract F/A? I ASSURE you, she WILL complain and WILL get a Lawyer and sue both companies for sexual harassment.

You know what happens next?

The powers that be will find out this is not the 1st time it happened. Iw will be discovered that the CP, F/A, and crew of the previous flight all conspired (that's what you did) to cover up the 1st incident. Those your intenetion was not deceit, it was still covered up. If the reporting sexual harassment is optional at your company, and I suspect that it is not, then you all are off the hook. If not, get that resume shined up.

You should start by EMAILING on the comapny email the CP and pressing him to take this forward. You have thought long and hard about this and you cannot, in good faith, just drop it. Explain to him that he is the department leader and this situation is serious enough to warrant him taking this information and reporting it. I sure this loser CP says "my airplane" when talking about it anyways, so be sure you tell him this serious episode happened on HIS airplane. Let him know that any response would be appreciate via a reply email.

Failing to report this situation will cause more trouble that it is worth.

Although I understand the difficulties you face Blackjet is exactly right. Failure to file a report with the CP is justification for future trouble for you.
It IS the right thing to do.
 
I'm probably not qualified to offer an opinion on this but since when has that ever stopped me, or anybody else, on this board?;)

Document and report to your immediate supervisor via hard copy with a copy to the FA and one for your records. Stick strictly to the facts. No opinions. If you report something someone else(e.g.-the FA) said to you, make it clear it is not firsthand information.

Emails often get misplaced, deleted, altered or forwarded to someone you would rather not see it; someone who may not have your best interests at heart.

Protect yourself, your company and your FA. Encourage your Co-captain to do the same.

My 2¢
 
If I were in your shoes, my company policy dictates that I report this to a supervisor, or if I don't think they will handle it properly, report to someone further up the chain of command. There is also an anonymous tipline to make a complaint, when needed. Personally, I would do what most everyone here is suggesting and send a formal email to the CP, cc: the Manager as well.
 
Earhart, Most of are tying to tell you to document and report from experience. All it takes is this womans relatives or boyfriend to hear about it and the lawyers will be involved if this is a US company.Next will be lots of grief.
 
I believe the Captain the FO and FA should grow some balls and do what should have been done during the flight. As a Captain, the minute you were aware of this, is when you should have handled the situation. By restoring order on your aircraft immediately, the drunk pax probably would have been shamed into acting more appropriately, if not, the worst thing you have is 3 crew members statements along with any ground worker that saw the pax in a drunken manner. The fact that you are still undecided about reporting something as egregious as this, for fear of repercussions, says a lot about yourselves and your companies corporate culture. My boss would back me and my crewmembers unconditionally.

Just my .02!
 
Emails often get misplaced, deleted, altered or forwarded to someone you would rather not see it; someone who may not have your best interests at heart.
Do any of that and the case now goes from civil to criminal. That is not as widespread as you say. There is always a copy of the original, especially if you BCC your personal email address when sending emails. The law requires corporations to keep all email for a set period of time, just for situations like that. I do not know of 1 IT guy willing to alter an email odered surrendered by a court. I am sure there are some out there, but the guarentee of going to jail by doing something like that is probably enough incentive to keep it on the up and up.
If you want to see a situation turn REAL nasty, tell the judge/court the email was misplaced or deleted. Better yet, turn in a copy of that email and have them later discovered its contents have been altered to defraud the court. You'll get a lesson in what nasty really is.
 
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My co- Cap and I told the CP in detail but he has left it up to us if we wish to take it further. The guys were really drunk, running round the cabin, throwing food, making sexual remarks to the FA (although no touching) and generally being obnoxious. Drunk is no excuse but they are important for the company.


It looks to me like you have already taken the appropriate first step. Its too bad your CP doesn't have the spine to finish it for you (it's his job). Ask your FA what she would do if it was her daughter, instead of her. It wont be the easiest thing to do, but right is right, and wrong is wrong.
The company I worked for previously had a policy that if anybody got unruly on the plane, the pilots had the authority to land and dump them off the plane anywhere they saw fit. They never had a problem.
 
OK simular issue has happend to me!

In the condo jet world things are "different" because these "important pax," also own part of the airplane!"

1st off you and others have blown one MAJOR issue. The FA is a CREWMEMBER. Go act up with a FA on the airlines and see how far you get! How about being met at the gate by the FBI, being charged with interfearing with a CREWMEMBER and automatically getting 7 years in jail and min fine of $250,000 to start?

Now on my incident - simular sitation, but remember they own the (part of)airplane. Dosen't matter to me. I'm not going to sit idely by while someone abuses or attack a crewmember without action. This constitutes interfearing with a crewmember. Better safe than sorry in court.

The FA and I collected what reamind of the drinks, and put them in the jep binder holder between the pilots seats. I announced that this was no longer a drnking flight and that due to their behavior not only have they lost their drinking PRIVDGLES, bout that of the FA also. I had the FA set in the JS during the remainder of the flight. I then picked up the FF in the cockpit and called the company to report the incident, and told the company either 1) I drop them off in the middle of nowhere, USA if this continues, and that 2) I will make a full report once we land.

I actually had the lead pax ask me of we could land somewhere along the way to get more booze. I told him that we could land along the way, but that they would be getting off MY airpane and stayng whereever I landed.

I wrote the incident report (had the other piot and FA write one up as well), and sent a copies to my CP, DO, and CC'ed the legal department. The CP called and asked me "What happened." I explained to him that it was all in the report. I asked if he had the report, and he acknowledged that he did, I said then you have everything that I know there. He gave me back to dispatch for another trip.

I never heard anything more about it. Sometimes you just have to have Big Enough Balls to be the Captain even if you are not acting as the captain.

At another company, I have a pal who was hauling rappers, and their ho's (reppers words not mine). Hallf way into the flight, the crew smelt the buring of gonja. Ths is not something that they were trained to handle. They called their company and here is what they were told. "Put on your masks, raise the temp in the cabin, and raise the altitude of the cabin to put the pax to sleep. Make sure that they smokes were out as not to start a fire in the pax compartment. Declaire and emergancy and land at the nearest airfield. While on approach call to have the airplane meet by the police." Once the airplane landed, the cops took off a bunch of mesed up rappers straigh to jail.

Sure enough this actualy happened, and the crew was not charged with anything, and since they were involuntary involved, and self reported the drug issue, no charges were issued against the crew. They flew on later in the afternoon. After the munchies passed!

In the situation you described, unfortunately not only can the FA sue your ocmpany, the pax, but you as the flight crew for NOT protecting a CREWMEMBER.

If I was in you're mockasins I would ask teh other pilot & FA to write up a report, and submit copies to the CP, DO & legal department. Who knows what the pax will say, but at least the crew will have all their information "reduced to writing" incase anything does arise from this trip.
 

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