visual approaches.......

[shamrock]

I almost hit a nice big mesa using this technique.

Was it one of those America West/USAirways 90 seaters?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Was it one of those America West/USAirways 90 seaters?

Wait a minute...

 

[buscap]

Don't worry bout it

Don't sweat the visuals. They will most likely not be a part of your 121 training. The circle to land is about the closest you'll get and you may not do it as an FO.

Visuals will come during IOE. They'll come hard and fast and every freakin Captain out there will want them done a little different. Screw them!

Fact of the matter is, if you are nervous about how to do a visual approach, you shouldn't be in a 121 cockpit. But hey, this is the world we live in.

And the most important thing to remember about visuals is, just like snowflakes, no two are alike. Canned rules and equations will not get you anywhere without a FEEL for it. Only experience can do that, so heads up when the little brown-eye starts winking really fast. You should always listen to your brown-eye!!!

 

[Oakum_Boy]

My brown eye makes lots of noise. Yours too?

 

[BlackPilot628]

Drop the GEAR! I love the visual apps. You're on the downwind at 8,000ft and the controllers says, "Clrd visual app". All that means is, it's time to have fun!
Turn the Auto Pilot off and FLY THE AIRPLANE. In the E170 you can fly 250ias until a 6 mile final and be on speed/slope by 800-1000ft agl.

As someone said above, Visual apps will come to you on IOE. They're no problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner, folks.
Thanks.

Does that make you the self appointed Game Master..... or just the bell ringer boy?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I like to ring my own bell.

 

[DrewBlows]

A lot of good advice but don't over-think it. When you don't have a lot of experience be conservative and slow down early (within reason, and don't do this in NY airspace), as you gain experience you can wait longer and longer to slow down until you are very comfortable with the characteristics of the airplane you are flying (this applies to all airplanes, not only jets). Practice, practice, practice!

Ask your Captains for advice, some will have good techniques some will have less-than-good techniques, but you will eventually develop your own technique. For instance some guys say "go 250 until you absolutely have to slow down", but others say "slow down if you are going away from the airport (downwind)". I subscribe to the latter theory, but to each his own.

Make sure you can transition between automation levels. If you usually fly visuals with full automation switch the autopilot off sometimes and use partial (flight-director on) or no automation. You don't always have to switch between automation levels, but you will have to sometime so you better know how to.

Good luck, and make sure you have fun while you are learning.

 

[svcta]

Don't sweat the visuals. They will most likely not be a part of your 121 training. The circle to land is about the closest you'll get and you may not do it as an FO.

Visuals will come during IOE. They'll come hard and fast and every freakin Captain out there will want them done a little different. Screw them!

Fact of the matter is, if you are nervous about how to do a visual approach, you shouldn't be in a 121 cockpit. But hey, this is the world we live in.[/quote=buscap;119874]

Say what? Visual approaches have been a part of every sim-based training I've ever done. As were circling approaches(even as an FO). And I disagree about the 121 quip, visuals in a jet when you've never flown one are kind of a numbers game until you've got a little time in type. And to make a pre-emptive defense: not all 121 guys have jet time, either.

 

[Captainzero1]

If you have a vasi use it
If you have an ils/GPS tune it in for vertical guidance
If you don't have any of the above - use the 3:1 rule
It isn't rocket science people.

 

[JohnnyP]

....

Ok guys, here is the SECRETS

1 secret) Look at your ground speed ex: 360kts
Then look at your current altitude ex: 28,000'
Then look at the field elevation or your level off altitude ex: 1000'
Then look at your DME ex: 54 NM
take 360/60=6 miles a minute you are traveling over the ground, so this means the field is 9 minutes away. You have to lose 27,000' in 9 minutes which equates to a 3000'per min descent rate.

2 secret) Another technique is: Take the altitude you are at 28,000' take the altitude you need to get to 1000' get the difference 27,000' multiply 27 by 3 = 81, so at 81 miles out you should start a descent to establish a 3 degree glide path. For every 10kts of tailwind add 1 mile to the initiation. Ex: 40 kt tailwind the descent should be started at 85 miles. Also keep in mind runway direction. If it is opposite from your current heading then you can delay the decent. On the contrary, if it is the same direction then add 10-15 miles to the initiation of the descent

How fast do you descend??? Use secret 1 to get you descent rate

3 secret)Rule of thumb: 30nm from the field you should be at 10,000'AFE 250kts
15nm from the field you should be at 5000'AFE 200kts

If you are higher than this you have too much energy. If you are lower than this you have too little energy

4 secret) Final approach is the simple 3-1 rule ex field elevation 1000' you are at 8NM you should be at 3400' or 2400'AFE if you are higher than this you are too high if you are lower than this you are too low.

Descent rates on final take you GS ex: 140Kts divide by 2 = 70 add multiply by 10= 700, so 700 on you VSI will be you descent rate

Try it out tell me what you think. The FMS and Flight Director are great, but every pilot should have sound knowledge and application of these techniques beacause how else do you check the autopilot or stump the Captain next to you who has no clue how to truly understand how to fly???

How I use these techniques?

First for initial descent i use secret 2. This way I have it figured in my head what ATC is planning to do or not to do. If I see that my DME is inside of my 3-1 then I either pimp ATC for a descent or I realize my descent will have to be greater than a 3-1.

Second while on decent I use secret one to adjust my descent rates

third I plan my descent to be at 10,000 30NM 250kts
then 5000 15nm 200kt

fourth on final I use secret four backing it up by the ILS

Too much mental gynmastics. Im a little slow with numbers/formulas/calculations, id be way past top of decent at this point.

Looking out the window works well also But when im flying a turboprop in the middle of nowhere, ive got room to play around with.

 

[CarjCapt]

visual

Most of the FOs that I had check rides with had problems with the "no flap" visual approaches, less with regular visuals. It is a different perpective entirely.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Since you didn't ask.....

The Visual Approach Go Around​

Quote:
5. This is a question mainly designed to see how you think. I think the best answer is that since you are on an IFR flight plan and cleared for an IFR approach, you would fly the published missed approach. The published missed is desinged to keep you out of the way and I can't see you flying a nice rectangle pattern at O'Hare.


Designed to keep you out of the way? I'd love to see me doing a nice VFR pattern at ORD, JFK, EWR, LGA, DCA etc......

Do a MAP in LGA ILS 22 ( http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0504/00289I22.PDF ) and the flight path will jam up northbound Korry3 arrivals ( http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0504/00289KORRY.PDF ) In fact, the ILS 22 MAP hold fix is PROUD intersection, which is the last fix on the Korry3 arrival.

A MAP for JFK ILS 31R sends the aircraft to Canarsie and Colts Neck. Too close to EWR and thier departure procedures (for me). http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0504/00610I31R.PDF

The approach briefing goes like this.... "it'll be a visual app backed up by the ILS .......blah blah blah..... in case of a Go Around we'll fly the published MAP." Huh? WTFO?

The reason we default to published MAP is the training world. The FAA PTS and company training programs require pilots to demonstrate the ability to execute a MAP. However, Flying the Line is not a PTS checkride......

It is very frustrating to see professional pilots plan for and accept a visual approach clearance with a full published instrument MAP primed and ready to go in the back of thier minds... from the Dogs....

The Visual Approach Go-Around​

By Capt. Brad Alberts​

Ask any group of pilots what the proper procedure is for the go-around from a visual approach, and you are bound to get a variety of answers. Throw in a communication problem (busy/block/lost frequency/ actual NORDO on the go) and the answers become even more interesting and less obvious. Aside from the great number of risks that crew takes by accepting a visual approach in the first place, there is a need to determine the proper course of action for a go-around off a visual approach clearance.

This issue was taken up at Air Traffic Procedures Advisory Committee (ATPAC) in July 2000. FPA is a voting member of this FAA advisory committee. After much discussion and a review of a number of documents, it was determined that sufficient guidance exists and no further changes to FAA publications would be required.

Here is what we found. First, pilots are expected to remain VMC. The published Missed Approach Procedure (MAP) is not available on a visual go-around. So don’t use it. What does ATC expect you to do? If you have operating radios (99.999 percent of the time) the tower will give you instructions—probably to turn, or to climb, or both. An aircraft going around becomes their top priority. You’ll be re-sequenced with existing traffic and given another approach.

What if you cannot contact the tower? It’s rare, but it does happen. You’re still required to remain VMC. At this point, you’re treated like a NORDO VFR aircraft in the traffic pattern. ATC will take the appropriate action clearing traffic for you. Of course, you’re going to make every attempt to contact the tower (try guard frequency?). You are expected to turn crosswind (left or right traffic, appropriate to the circumstances and the runway configuration), downwind, base, and final in accordance with standard AIM procedures. (Do you remember tower light gun procedures?) Also, the pilot/controller glossary has information under Go-Around.

Your FPA Safety Committee recommends that unless conditions are picture-perfect and the airport, runway, and traffic to be followed are rock-solid, accepting a visual approach clearance is highly questionable. The ILS or other IFR approach procedure is always preferable. Fly safely.


There is more!

This is from the ATC Controller handbook. Reading it will take you to the next level.

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0704.html#7-4-1
7-4-1. VISUAL APPROACH

A visual approach is an ATC authorization for an aircraft on an IFR flight plan to proceed visually to the airport of intended landing; it is not an instrument approach procedure. Also, there is no missed approach segment. An aircraft unable to complete a visual approach shall be handled as any go-around and appropriate separation must be provided.

The AIM. Sometimes it needs to be dusted.
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/G.HTM

GO AROUND- Instructions for a pilot to abandon his/her approach to landing. Additional instructions may follow. Unless otherwise advised by ATC, a VFR aircraft or an aircraft conducting visual approach should overfly the runway while climbing to traffic pattern altitude and enter the traffic pattern via the crosswind leg. A pilot on an IFR flight plan making an instrument approach should execute the published missed approach procedure or proceed as instructed by ATC; e.g., "Go around" (additional instructions if required).

MISSED APPROACH-
a. A maneuver conducted by a pilot when an instrument approach cannot be completed to a landing. The route of flight and altitude are shown on instrument approach procedure charts. A pilot executing a missed approach prior to the Missed Approach Point (MAP) must continue along the final approach to the MAP.
b. A term used by the pilot to inform ATC that he/she is executing the missed approach.
c. At locations where ATC radar service is provided, the pilot should conform to radar vectors when provided by ATC in lieu of the published missed approach procedure.

 

[wahoo250]

In my opinion they are more fun and you actually get to use your own brainpower and coordination to fly. I would take a visual over a instrument approach. In the 121 world you dont get to do too many but If you call the field in sight at outstations they normally will let you loose. Good rule of thumb is to keep the outermarker as one of the bearingpointers and know what altitude your looking for at that point. if your turning inside the outer marker know that you'll need to be that much lower and slower.

 

[blueridge71]

All-


i'm hopefully going to be starting my first 121 ground school in a few weeks, and I had a few questions.

According to several good friends who are currenly flying jets, the visual approach is the hardest thing to do (according to my one friend it is comarable to a V1 cut).

My question is this. besides using the VNAV stuff (not sure on how that stuff works yet) is there a better way to stay ahead of the plane doing a VAP?



thanks for the advice,


Pilotguy143

Back it up with an ILS if possible. If not, put in a GPS approach. Figure the distance to the threshhold (hit direct to the runway waypoint, if necessary). A three degree glidepath is about 300 feet per nautical mile. If you are three miles out, you should be around 900 AGL (radar altimeter). Two miles out, 600 AGL, and so on.

Also, hand fly the airplane. It is much easier and more precise than trying to manage the descent with an autopilot.

The trickiest ones are when you go straight in with no traffic in front of you. If you don't know your airplane very well, you may end up high and fast. Remember to use spoilers if you have them.

It is very cool to be able to smoothly fly a CRJ 250 KIAS to the marker and touch down on speed and stable in the touchdown zone. You definitely have to think ahead of the airplane. Don't try to do this on your first one.

You will practice plenty of visuals on IOE. They aren't replicated very well in the sim.

You may be intimidated by visuals at first, but with a little practice and experience, you will look forward to them. They can be fun and challenging. As your knowledge of the airplane increases, you'll be able to fly them precisely and smoothly and think, "I love it when a plan comes together."

 

[sinkrate]

You don't say what type of AC your initial trainig will be in. From some 5000 hours of instruction given in AC and sims I will offer this.

Almost all regional airlines initial AC training programs are designed to meet the bare minimums for an FAR 121.441 proficiency check. That check is detailed in part 121 appendix F. It is basically the same manuevers in the ATP Practical Test Standards. Since a visual approach is not a required manuever you will not be trained or checked in it. And there starts the problem.

Although all Company manuals will have a profile for a visual approach there will be no standard way of intructing/complying with the published profile. As you might guess by the length of this thread every Check Airman and Captain you fly with will have a different method/way of thinking about it. All of the information in this thread is 'good stuff'.

The problem new hires have with visual approaches has two aspects.

First - when to do things. In the sim for charted approaches there will be specific points for configuration changes/airspeeds so you will not have a judgement to make. On the line for a visual approach that will not be the case. You will not have a charted position where you configure/slow etc. A suggestion is to 'think' airspace and altitudes. Entering the Class D volume you must slow to 200 knots and configure for that speed. Descending through the pattern altitude (that you used in your briefing) you should configure (gear and flaps) for landing. If you think like that you will have the same que to prompt you every time and you will be very consistent in your AC management. It will also take away the distraction of thinking about it. That will leave your mind time to think about item two and simplify it tremendously.


Second - what speeds/altitudes/descent rates should you use? Most of the posts in this thread talk around the '3 to 1' rule. It is actually exact math for a 3.16 degree glide path. A 300 ft per nautical mile descent rate is very close to a three degree 'glide slope'. Read C-141/C5's post for a very detailed explanation of the mental math calculations to do this. The explanation is a lot more complicated than using it - once you understand it. It is the way it was done for many years before FMS's. His explanation covers enroute descents as well as final descent. He tells you how to calculate the descent rate for your gound speed.

Your freind said V1 engine failures were hard. Thats sad. With proper instruction it is a relativley easy stick and rudder manuever. If you are in a straight wing turbo prop your initial control input will be almost full aileron to counter the roll moment followed immediately by coordinated rudder. If you are in a swept wing jet it is the other way around. Your first control input must be rudder to center the ball. Only after the ball is centered do you use aileron.

Good luck!

 

[DrewBlows]

It is very cool to be able to smoothly fly a CRJ 250 KIAS to the marker and touch down on speed and stable in the touchdown zone. You definitely have to think ahead of the airplane. Don't try to do this on your first one.

Is it possible to do this and meet "stabilized approach" criteria? For argument's sake let's say stabilized approach criteria is on speed (ref +5 - 10 KIAS), configured for landing, and engines spooled up by 500' agl.

If you cross the marker on glide path you will be approximately 5 nm from the end of the runway at 1500' agl. At 500' agl on glide path you will be approximately 1.7 nm from the end of the runway. At 250 KIAS your descent rate will be approximately 1200 fpm. Can you slow a CRJ from 250 to 150 in 3.3 nm with an initial descent rate of 1200 fpm and spool the engines in time? Is this comfortable for passengers (I think I know the answer to this one)?

I fly the CR7 and have never attempted this particular maneuver (to the best of my knowledge). If memory serves me the gear speed is 250 on the -200, which might help, though it sounds like a bomb going off when it's extended at normal speeds, I can only imagine what it sounds like at 250.

 

[sweptback]

Is it possible to do this and meet "stabilized approach" criteria? For argument's sake let's say stabilized approach criteria is on speed (ref +5 - 10 KIAS), configured for landing, and engines spooled up by 500' agl.

Oh definitely, you can be configured and spooled up by 500'. The hardest part is slowing to 215 where you can start getting flaps out. After that point it's pretty easy. Spoilers definitely help.

If you start slowing a mile or two outside of the fix you can even do it without spoilers, although you might have to go a bit high on the GS initially to slow.

 

[indianboy7]

It's easy....

altitude to lose / 300 = how many miles from the runway you need to start descending....

groundspeed * 5 = your vertical speed needed to stay on the 3 degree when you start descending......

rinse lather repeat....imp:​

 

[#%&@$!]

There is no "profile" for a visual approach. You have to figure out when to configure.

On an instrument approach, ATC will almost always vector you onto the localizer below the glide slope. You just arm the approach on the FD.

On a visual approach they may or may not vector you to join the localizer, and if they do, it will usually be above the glide slope. Transitioning to an RJ from something slower and less sophisticated causes many newbees to overload in this situation.

They won't teach this in training. You will do so many ILSs that they become routine. When you get to IOE and hear the words "cleared for a visual" you need to have a plan how you will handle it.

 

[C-141/C-5]

Too much mental gynmastics. Im a little slow with numbers/formulas/calculations, id be way past top of decent at this point.

Looking out the window works well also But when im flying a turboprop in the middle of nowhere, ive got room to play around with.

This mental math is very simple and it'll make your life a lot easier as well as dramatically increasing your SA.

Flying is like an art be precise and perfect 100% of the time

Nothing bugs me more than when I get on a commercial flight and the pilots throw the spoilers out for the descent then they level off and goose the power. This is an example of poor energy management and lack of airmanship.

Spoilers are not supposed to be used in normal descents. They are a tool that will help you get out of poor descent planning or when ATC slam dunks you.

Fly Safe, Be Precise, Respect Your Position

 

[Bringupthebird]

If you fly an aircraft with an FMS and have a vertical deviation display (above/below path) I use a simple rule of thumb: more than 1200' above path base to final you'll have to drop the gear early. Less than that you can get away with speedbrakes at most. Below path, you ought to be just fine. Caveat: make sure you have the FMS configured to give you good info.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nothing bugs me more than when I get on a commercial flight and the pilots throw the spoilers out for the descent then they level off and goose the power. This is an example of poor energy management and lack of airmanship.

Do you go up to front and "have a chat" afterwards....??

 

[svcta]

Spoilers definitely help.

If you start slowing a mile or two outside of the fix you can even do it without spoilers, although you might have to go a bit high on the GS initially to slow.

Tell me what about any of this makes for a good ride? Spoilers in the CRJ are lousy if you rely on the detents on the handle(which everyone did when I was flying them, bunch of freaking hacks[kiding, mostly]), and pitching for the sky to get flap speeds while chasing a glidepath is a totally amateur move.

Disclaimer: 1:Use of spoilers/speed brakes is approved : THEY ARE THERE USE THEM IF NEEDED, but regular use of them indicates poor planning and/or ham-fistedness. B:All of this excepts poor ATC handling.

 

[C-141/C-5]

Do you go up to front and "have a chat" afterwards....??

No I don't because being a passenger I have no real idea what the actual circumstances were, but when the kid with suglasses on top of his head comes out to do his walk around I get a good inner chuckle

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No I don't because being a passenger I have no real idea what the actual circumstances were, but when the kid with suglasses on top of his head comes out to do his walk around I get a good inner chuckle

I get a chuckle too when I see Mav, Goose and Iceman running around Crystal City in thier zoom suits.... What is Mmo on that desk anyway?

:beer:

 

[n32jk]

I like to ring my own bell.

This is somewhat evident. The clear message is this:
the fact that this thread even exists shows that there are too many truly unqualified and incompetent pilots. They are coming out of places like Jet U and ATP and are out there endangering the traveling public with there sorry attempts to break into aviation without the experience needed to safely accomplish the job.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is somewhat evident. The clear message is this:
the fact that this thread even exists shows that there are too many truly unqualified and incompetent pilots. They are coming out of places like Jet U and ATP and are out there endangering the traveling public with there sorry attempts to break into aviation without the experience needed to safely accomplish the job.

This may or may not be true....

The issue is... what can be done about it. When a Jet U. or ATP guy shows up to fly the jet.. the FAA and company have said he is good to go... How do you say no to that?

During IOE you may be able to with hold him/her, but too much of that and the powers that be will scurtinize the Checkairman cadre...

After IOE what is a line Capt supposed to do? Refuse to fly with him? Then the Jet U pilots classmate will come out to the jet....

 

[n32jk]

This may or may not be true....

The issue is... what can be done about it. When a Jet U. or ATP guy shows up to fly the jet.. the FAA and company have said he is good to go... How do you say no to that?

During IOE you may be able to with hold him/her, but too much of that and the powers that be will scurtinize the Checkairman cadre...

After IOE what is a line Capt supposed to do? Refuse to fly with him? Then the Jet U pilots classmate will come out to the jet....

You are right, In OE all that can be done is to get them to practical standards even if it is just rote regurgitation. I am commenting about a whole sorry mess this industry has come to.