Merger Intergration, DOH or not, your opnion

[jetflier]

With the present merger mania stirring the pot, I thought that a thread in seniority intergration might be a good discussion.

Faced with the possibility on NWA merging with another carrier, seniority intergration is a big issue.

After feeling the wrath of the downfall of Pan Am in Dec of 1991, DAL was not willing to accept the Pan Am pilots into their seniority list, by DOH.

Pilots literally went with the aircraft chosen, 727 Pan Am Shuttle, (most junior), and the Airbus 310, (mid senior).

Seniority intergration was If I recall, after the thousand or so senior DAL pilots then 1 for 11 all the way down to even negative seniority numbers !

Airline managers know that we have historically fought amoung ourselvs, dividing the airline pilot profession, and weakening the foundation that was established for our profession many years ago.

Today, airline executives know and can predict our expected outcome, based on our willingness to undercut "the other" pilot group, to enhance or save our own a$$.

IMHO, in order to restore our proud and and previousally lucerative profession, we need to band together, and not continue to fragment ourselves.

My opnion is now and always has been, Date of Hire seniority intergration for evey merger, or aquisition.

Now, how about you,....? Anyone else want to chime in with your opnion, DOH or not,...why ?

 

[MCDU]

Yep, DOH hire is the only way.

Marty

 

[Freight Dog]

DOH is a common misconception. It creates a potential for windfall and rarely happens.

Mergers are never easy. The best way for any merger IMO, is to do relative seniority in the new company based on current seniority. Then you put up fences around any equipment for x number of years.

Is it fair to all parties that a US Airways furloughee gets recalled to A320 captain position with a combined carrier? Not a chance.

This whole me-me-me-and-only-me thing is what led to the decline of our profession and what continues to divide us.

 

[cargoflyr69]

DOH is a common misconception. It creates a potential for windfall and rarely happens.

Mergers are never easy. The best way for any merger IMO, is to do relative seniority in the new company based on current seniority. Then you put up fences around any equipment for x number of years.

Is it fair to all parties that a US Airways furloughee gets recalled to A320 captain position with a combined carrier? Not a chance.

This whole me-me-me-and-only-me thing is what led to the decline of our profession and what continues to divide us.

As a victim of an airline merger myself, I have to agree with the "relative seniority" idea with some sort of fencing of equipment. Afterall, you never want a federal arbi(tratior) to decide the case for you. both sides loose when that happens. Best of luck to all those that find themselves knee-deep in consolidation and merger muck.

 

[Andy]

Any pilot is going to want to have a seniority integration model applied that will most benefit him/herself.
In my case, assuming a CAL/UAL merge, DOH would benefit me the most. But (to prove once and for all that I am, in fact, insane) I do not think that DOH would be the most fair way to merge the two lists.

There are many factors to consider besides merely DOH.
Relative seniority
Career expectations
Domiciles
The list gets very long in the number of factors to be considered.


Fortunately, unless one side has waived the right to arbitration, this will almost certainly be decided by an arbitrator. And I don't think that you'll find any arbitrator that will go for a simple DOH formula.

 

[ferlo]

If Alpa/Alpa, it should be done by number of years paying Alpa dues, even if it was 3 alpa carriers ago.

 

[aa73]

Whatever the method of integration, stapling should never be allowed.

73

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Relative seniority is the best.

But if career expectations are a factor it is those expectations from the date of the merge going forward.

 

[jetexas]

Relative seniority. Not DOH.
When I was at eagle, they bought business express and merged DOH. 10 year eagle pilots had 11 year Bizex guys go in front of them and got AA numbers or flowed though to AA.
350 pilots came directly to eagle from bizex and were senior FO's or captains ahead of those that chose to work at eagle in the late 90's. There were no fences, no nothing. Not the way to go.
I felt that some sort of ratio integration would have been more equitable.

 

[Gofish]

DOH is the only fair way to merge seniority.

 

[MD80DRVR]

As long as it's "fair and equitable" everyone will be happy.......

 

[afres bum]

It's idealistic, but a national seniority list would solve all of this... the problem is most pilots I know don't want it.

If there were a national seniority list, and hiring had to go to the most senior pilot first then all pay scales would equalize and management would be forced to manage the airline, not pilot career expectations. Currently pilots are subsidizing mis-management, but only because as a labor group we allow that! If a national seniority number was issued to everyone the first day they showed up to a 121 carrier and the day they got their wings in the military then from that point on you just go to whatever company was in business. Let someone else worry about keeping the company in business, very similar to a plumbers union. This national seniority list would settle any merger issues with no lawsuits, etc. I guarantee pay would stabilize throughout the industry, and as a labor group we would have more negotiating leverage because we wouldn’t have to worry about starting over at the bottom if our company went out of business!

 

[furloughed dude]

Nothing is ever fair and equitable. The company that gets acquired/merged is always screwed. Probably the way it should be...

A national seniority list is usually wanted by people that work for a crappy company. Just my opinion...

 

[SSDD]

Get your national 121 seniority number the day you got your wings in the military? Are you serious? How do you equate the two?

If that were the case shouldn't you get a number the day you enroll at a civilian training program?

 

[afres bum]

Which company is not crappy these days? By the way, I am nAAtive AA and senior to the TWA guys, but AA was not my first Airline. I am also second generation airline and have not been real impressed with how the industry has welcomed former Braniff, National, Eastern, Original Continental, Pan Am, TWA, etc...

 

[afres bum]

Get your national 121 seniority number the day you got your wings in the military? Are you serious? How do you equate the two?

If that were the case shouldn't you get a number the day you enroll at a civilian training program?

per my earlier statement, most pilots do not like the idea of a national seniority list, they would rather make $100,000 less per year than know that someone they feel has inferior credentials to them makes more money or has a better position than they do!

Look at the regional hiring these days, having trouble filling the new hire classes and minimums down to 500 hours total time. Most young civilian pilots these day’s get to a 121 carrier prior to a military pilot getting their wings!

 

[capt. megadeth]

I most definitely do not think DOH. Relative seniority is probably the fairest way. I would take stapling over DOH but stapling is not really fair either. Of course it depends on which company I am at....the one buying or the one being bought.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Remember...

DOH=Unity=DOH

Tejas

 

[SSDD]

I'm not oppossed to a national seniority list. But you can't begin by stacking the deck. If the ultimate goal is 121 flying, then you get your number when you get your first 121 job.

This is how good ideas get fouled up. You start with a good concept, then you mess it up by making exceptions for special interests.

 

[cactusboy53]

DOH is the only fair way to merge seniority.

MCDU & Gofish:
Can you look in the mirror and say in all truth that DOH is "the only way" if you were an AWA pilot hired in 1996? You would be a lower mid-seniority captain now.

If DOH was the fairest way to the combined pilot list, you would not only be an FO for the next ten or so years...you might even stand a chance of being reserve or even furloughed (assuming that all the AAA furloughed pilots were given DOH as well).

If you did look in the mirror and agree with the DOH argument.....I'd say the guy in the mirror is lying to himself. The company that I work for was instrumental in the aquired AAA. I do not feel that staple is fair or equitable. I do not want to take anyone's job, nor do I wish to give my job or upgrade away. Besides, it's out of our hands and in the trustworthy hands of our Merger Committees and the arbitrator.

Regarding a National Seniority List:
You are a 20 year seasoned veteran at Eastern Airlines and a national seniority list is in existence. The airline closes and you are hired by the former US Air or UAL. You now JUMP 20 years ahead of anyone who was hired at AAA or UAL in that 20 years. How fair do those AAA or UAL pilots feel a National Seniority List is now?

The National Seniority List ship sailed decades ago. Your time and energies are better spent on showing your employer your value and walking in-step with your union and Negoiating Committee to get a valued added contract.

 

[MCDU]

DOH with fences. You get protected with the flying you bring to the merger.

 

[Taildragon]

The chicken came first, no no the egg came first, no no the chicken came first. Ahh hell, I just can't decide.

 

[FNG_that's me]

Get your national 121 seniority number the day you got your wings in the military? Are you serious? How do you equate the two?

If that were the case shouldn't you get a number the day you enroll at a civilian training program?

Because when you get your wings, you've completed enough flight training to get a commercial ticket/commuter job. The equiv. of getting an entry-level 121 job.
To be fair, a closer correlation in training would be Wings vs. ATP ticket; I don't think you'd see too many civis supporting this. For these, and various other reasons a national seniority list is impossible.

 

[FNG_that's me]

Overall, How about relative seniority within seat. Nobody should lose a Captain seat because of the merger. That takes career expectations, DOH and airiline size/health into account.

 

[Dizel8]

Because when you get your wings, you've completed enough flight training to get a commercial ticket/commuter job. The equiv. of getting an entry-level 121 job.
To be fair, a closer correlation in training would be Wings vs. ATP ticket; I don't think you'd see too many civis supporting this. For these, and various other reasons a national seniority list is impossible.

Dream on with your analogy. The things you compare are very different indeed, I won't pretend to be a military aviator, but there is a vast difference in the two worlds.

Wings=ATP, you must have been sniffing glue!

P.S. This was not meant as a dig against the military flyers, merely my opinion on the particular issue referenced.

 

[Freight Dog]

National Seniority List briefs well. However, it could never be implemented.

DOH crowd appears to see the same crowd that supports Age 65. But hey... everyone else is selfish, right?

 

[HalinTexas]

Date of initial issuance of ATP. Period. Most military guys don't exit with less than 1500 hours, so getting an ATP should be easy. Single engine and rotor ATP's count! The FAA keeps the records, so there should be no argument.

I'd also rather that no Part 121 carrier hire anyone with less than an ATP. After all, they are airlines and it is an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. This also keeps the airlines from "stacking" up with their own ab initio program vs. hiring off the street.

My ATP was August of 1993. First 121 job, November of 1993.

 

[Andy]

I'd also rather that no Part 121 carrier hire anyone with less than an ATP. After all, they are airlines and it is an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. This also keeps the airlines from "stacking" up with their own ab initio program vs. hiring off the street.

Good luck on that one. Do you think that Mesa has the luxury of only hiring ATPs?

 

[SSDD]

Because when you get your wings, you've completed enough flight training to get a commercial ticket/commuter job. The equiv. of getting an entry-level 121 job.
To be fair, a closer correlation in training would be Wings vs. ATP ticket; I don't think you'd see too many civis supporting this. For these, and various other reasons a national seniority list is impossible.

Not that I think this would ever happen, but as long as we're discussing it, lets get started on the right track.

Not all pilots, military or civilian want to end up flying for an airline. So again, one should get their seniority number with their first 121 job.

 

[DustyBottoms]

Because when you get your wings, you've completed enough flight training to get a commercial ticket/commuter job. The equiv. of getting an entry-level 121 job.
To be fair, a closer correlation in training would be Wings vs. ATP ticket; I don't think you'd see too many civis supporting this. For these, and various other reasons a national seniority list is impossible.

Yeah, that analogy is a little out there. But, playing along, that would mean a military pilot would have to start paying ALPA dues the day he got his wings…