Progress at the Table?

[VeeOne]

In order to prevent the company from dragging this out once again on another 4 year tirade, how about what UPS did? I am not sure the details but payrates automatically increase 3% per year until another deal is reached after their contract becomes amendable. Also, as someone told me once, I feel retro pay may actually give the company a reverse incentive to drag the talks out. The longer they drag them out at this time, the more people quit and the less old timers will be here to collect their retro check- longer delay = more money saved. Also, we should have pushed for the strike vote two years ago when we weren't owned by a non union carrier. On the next contract, we should take the hard line with no 4 years of stalling. I'm for the signing bonus myself.

I hope that there is an error in the description of events from above. I do not support Dave N having any ties with Bob A. I think Bob A had an agenda all his own- and it wasn't a good one.

 

[Bizjet]

Bizjet,

I do think they are interested in job security and I don't think they "want" to destroy the airline. Why do you have to make everything personal? Can't a pilot disagree with another pilot without you questioning the motives?

The guys who are in there now are selfless servants of the ASA pilot group. I have made it personal when I read post that make it personal. We all need to support our MEC and CNC or management will have no reason to settle this contract.

There are only 2 elected reps. at ASA now. Will F. and Newie. Will is too immature and sometimes only wants to fight. Newie is still listening to Bob A. too much and is in way over his head. That has been confirmed by members of the Utley coalition.

They may not "want" to destroy the airline, but I'm afraid the current path will lead to it's destruction ala CMR. Sometimes unions and union leaders push the envelope too far and that can lead to our destruction.

Will is O.K. in my book. He is head strong but not overly so. He has shown a lot of increased maturity over the past 3 years. Dave is prepared to be MEC Chairman without BA's interference. Dave has his own way of doing things and that is the way it should be. If you are getting information to the contrary you should talk with Dave. He is very busy but always has time to talk to pilots with problems. Dave is doing a good job pulling from his 8 years of experience as either a rep or the Grievance Chairman. He has been very successful in both of those positions. He took the Grievance Committee and built it to where it is today. Steve P. is doing a great job as the chairman of the Grievance committee now and has brough in some great volunteers. Dave was the logical choice for the postion of MEC Chair. TZ is also doing a great job as Vice Chairman and just as easily could have been selected as Chairman. The four voting members had a delightful dilemma choosing. To my knowledge there was no one else who showed interest in the position.

By the way, I have been to the ALPA office and the strike center. I have helped. The last time I helped at the strike center, I had to hear juvenile personal attacks on the LJ coalition and how bad they would be. They all said they would quit if the LJ coalition wins. That was enough for me. I'll stay on the sidelines for now, ready to jump back in when we have a change at the helm.

There will always be some who can piss anyone off. That is the nature of pilots--we are not afraid to call a spade a spade even if it is not. LJ has a very jaded past history involving ALPA work. She had almost no support for being Vice Chairman. BA lobbied very diligently for her because he thought she could be trusted to do the job. She did nothing to prove him right and spent her time trying to force JB onto the CNC. There was no support for that. One of the former MEC members told me he thought BA was joking or had lost his mind when he first brought up LJ's name for Vice Chair. It looks like the joke was on BA.

Why not go back and volunteer again. You will be helping your fellow pilots and the opinions of those with whom you differ should be debated or ignored. There are never enough volunteers.

 

[www.]

Something has lit a fire under the current administration.

www. , you have told me in PMs that there have been mistakes made up to this point. You have told me that Bob A. is still running things through Newie. You have also told me that even Danny has concerns about Newie and Bob. You told me that the two senior members of the CNC need to go and that Newie needs to go. Even you were heavily involved in ALPA up until recently, but you quit because of Bob.

If mistakes have been made as you have indicated, isn't it time for a change?

Yes in certain areas.

After YOU contacted me for my opinion. And yes mistakes have been made by people but they do not match what took place the last time with your group that you're backing.

But what is even more alarming is that you are an ALPA volunteer trying to undermind the current people, and the past, that are working for our pilot group. I may have my differences of certain people but I do not go out on a public forum about it. But you can perform ALPA work and undermind the work good work that volunteers are doing.

You and your group must be concerned with the end being near.

 

[~~~^~~~]

www.

Respectfully, you could not be more wrong about the RJDC (if you wrote that) Please allow me to provide an update based on what I'm hearing:

Discovery is almost wrapped. ALPA still has some requests to depose non parties that they have not set dates for. Next are the pre-trial motions which have not been seen yet, but ALPA will probably ask for a dismissal (Motion for Summary Judgement) and on the RJDC side the Judge has already suggested that this litigation would be a class action. ALPA's own testimony in the Comair / Delta / US Air part of Delta's 113 could complicate any motion for dismissal, even though there were way too many questions to make a Motion for Summary Judgement stick anyway. Figure another 6 months to get the pre trial motions resolved and this thing should be on a trial calendar late next year.

What has made it difficult for ALPA is that they have continued going down the wrong road while aircraft has been transferred to non union carriers and pilots have been displaced. This is exactly what the Plaintiff's said would happen as far back as the year 2000. History is bearing out the warnings that the RJDC, the ASA and Comair MEC's all said was going to happen if ALPA did not reform.

---- That is fact, now let me separate my opinion ----

ALPA needs to get this ASA contract wrapped and do their very best to prevent any harm to the Comair pilots. Moving airplanes to non union carriers while ALPA fiddles provides easy documentation of Plaintiff's damages as a result of ALPA's preferred representation of the Delta pilots at the expense of the ALPA members at DCI.

All ALPA has done to address their exposure is to move funds off shore and Kitty Hawk. That will not change the outcome, or ALPA's responsibility.

ALPA needs to get this scope problem fixed yesterday or else they are running the very real risk of having the house burned down. It is not the intention of the RJDC to burn down the house, but ALPA needs to get its pants back on and stop exposing its short hairs.

After all - if you get your adversary by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow.

I don't like this, but that is where it looks like things are going.

 

[www.]

www.

Respectfully, you could not be more wrong about the RJDC (if you wrote that)

I don't think I did. If I did, please point it out to me.

Thanks

 

[~~~^~~~]

In order to prevent the company from dragging this out once again on another 4 year tirade, how about what UPS did? I am not sure the details but payrates automatically increase 3% per year until another deal is reached after their contract becomes amendable.

You are right and this is one of the positions our MEC and CNC are fighting to achieve in our next contract.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I don't think I did. If I did, please point it out to me.

Thanks

Your thoughts were quoted by someone else on Flight Info. Pobably something got confused somewhere. No big deal, just figured a update could not hurt since the light went off in my head how important it is for ALPA to stop the transfer of airplanes to non union carriers.

In effect, an aircraft transfer is the death of 10 ALPA members at ASA, or Comair. ALPA has a fiduciary interest in preventing that murder and can't exactly pull a Cato Kaelin after everyone warned them there was going to be a murder. Worse, it looks like ALPA kinda encouraged the murder by providing financial analysis to Delta on the benefits of RFP's at DCI.

A big part of ALPA's defense was that no one at ASA, or Comair, had been harmed. Now, that is not the case.

 

[Bizjet]

What? That was funny, but be sure you can pass the next drug test.

Never been to Buffet with 'em, or the SS Minnow, never been invited. Loose Cannon, maybe; out for themselves, not at all.

Are you and I out for ourselves on this board? It doesn't make us money and sure doesn't make us popular. I think we do it because we hope to influence the process to improve the place. Their motivations are the same as ours.

You disagree with them about nearly everything. I disagree with some of their positions, but realize many of their divergent views need to be considered and responded to by our union. If ALPA would listen to its members at the small jet carriers it would be a better union - and we need a strong ALPA more now than ever.

OK. How about a hot tub party or a trip to the Fla. White House or Camp Merchant in the mountains? I never start threads I only try to protect our dedicated volunteers from the vultures who are trying to hasten their political deaths with lies and innuendo. I am just using a play from the JB/LJ playbook. They should be pleased that I use their strategy of dang the facts just attack, attack, attack. They, along with their rabid supporters, never miss a chance to spread lies just to try and enhance their chances of taking over the MEC. They have had their opportunities and squandered each opportunity.

We are ALL ALPA. If you run for office and fail to serve you are not hurting ALPA National but you are flipping off the pilots who put you in the position. JB is so politically dimwitted and full of hatred for those that he perceives prevent him from taking over the union because of his perceived superior intellect he is hopelessly over the cliff with this MEC. He has to get his Mommy into power and she will give him the MEC to play with. It would be cheaper to give him a G.I. Joe or some Tonka Toys or even cut a hole in his pocket so he would have a little something to play with than to let him experiment on the pilots. Besides I have a new (well new to me laptop) to use while on the road and since I don't care for daytime T.V. I will continue to spend my time going after those who denigrate those who work to make this a better place to work. Your post are well thought out, but trying to get me to believe JB/LJ have any redeeming qualities is as hopeless as JB showing up at the LEC meetings. Well maybe not that hopeless.

Hum, worn out Chevette vs. a wild Mustang. Sounds like you got the better deal. The only time I spent with an older woman was about 9 months about 58 years ago.:laugh:

 

[ASARJMan]

If mistakes have been made as you have indicated, isn't it time for a change?

Vote for whom you want. But a change just for change's sake? I'll go with those with current ALPA experience. Not with those who seek ALPA positions to self-serve their interests, which they are quilty of in the past.

Voted For The Right Candidates
NOT For The Candidates Who Abused
Their Prior ALPA Positions!
www.nopilotleftbehind.com

 

[John Pennekamp]

Here is some more of what www. had to say in his private messages. Seems even the Utley coalition isn't happy with the current leadership and gameplan. Looks like there will be a change regardless of who wins.

www. said:


"Lets make things very clear. I do not support Lynn and or John B.
Also, I also do not support what Dave N. is doing. Danny did not vote for Dave N. nor did Dave Mohr. Danny voted for Tom and Dave didn't vote. Dave N. and Will for Dave N. I feel Danny, if he is elected, would turn the ship around if you know what I mean. I feel Dave Mohr would also along with Nick. They are not happy with the game plan as it stands. I am sticking with the tried and true. Bob Arnold manipulated people and Dave, Tom and John Rice are just a few. Now that Danny has seen the true Dave N., I am giving him a second chance to turn it around. Danny's performance has been on point since he began doing ALPA work.

So I am leaving my options open for something else. Locking myself in as a "Cpts Rep" would limit my ability to do things in the future. I feel my talents could be used in other ways."

Well I'll say this. Since everyone on the MEC knows who WWW. really is, you probably just gave him the kiss of death for ever holding an important position again!

 

[John Pennekamp]

There are only 2 elected reps. at ASA now. Will F. and Newie. Will is too immature and sometimes only wants to fight. Newie is still listening to Bob A. too much and is in way over his head. That has been confirmed by members of the Utley coalition.

Is that a fact? Since you're so chummy with Fortaw and Utley, go ask them who was the one dissenter the last two times the MEC discussed negotiations. WF was the one who stood up and showed leadership by saying it's time to re-evaluate our positions and get real so that we can settle this thing. Mohr and Utley supported him. He was also the one who orchestrated DN not resigning as LEC 112 captain rep after elected to MEC chairman.

This was back in August, long before the Jackson 5 became a "threat". So cut the crap that the MEC is settling because they are scared of LJ.

 

[FightingIrish]

Yes in certain areas.

After YOU contacted me for my opinion. And yes mistakes have been made by people but they do not match what took place the last time with your group that you're backing.


But what is even more alarming is that you are an ALPA volunteer trying to undermind the current people, and the past, that are working for our pilot group. I may have my differences of certain people but I do not go out on a public forum about it. But you can perform ALPA work and undermind the work good work that volunteers are doing.

www,

I contacted you and solicited your opinion because I respect your opinion. I don't agree with everything you say, but I would say that I agree with about 75% of what you say. I think it was a shame that you resigned because of Bob. It should have been Bob that resigned instead of you.

I am not trying to undermine our efforts, I just don't agree with Will or Newie, and I agree with you that Bob is still controlling things. What is more alarming is that both sides of this election seem to agree that mistakes have been made, and that Bob is still controlling things. I have talked to people in BOTH coalitions, and they BOTH agree on that. WHY is this being allowed to take place?

There are many good volunteers, and you were one of them. However it seems the union leadership has failed those hardworking volunteers. It is time to get this out in the open so that the membership can see it. If ALPA doesn't like it, then they need to fix it, not sweep it under the rug.

 

[FightingIrish]

Is that a fact? Since you're so chummy with Fortaw and Utley, go ask them who was the one dissenter the last two times the MEC discussed negotiations. WF was the one who stood up and showed leadership by saying it's time to re-evaluate our positions and get real so that we can settle this thing. Mohr and Utley supported him. He was also the one who orchestrated DN not resigning as LEC 112 captain rep after elected to MEC chairman.

This was back in August, long before the Jackson 5 became a "threat". So cut the crap that the MEC is settling because they are scared of LJ.

I am not voting for the Utley coalition, but I do believe Ed and Danny. They have more credibility than Will. If what you say is true, then Will can do something about it now that he is half the MEC.

 

[HoserASA]

www,

I contacted you and solicited your opinion because I respect your opinion. I am not trying to undermine our efforts, .

You have revealed www's identity and his thoughts that were in confidence to you irish. That is about as low as one can go in my book. I don't understand your motivation for doing so. But, understand this, you are undermining our efforts.

And you claim BA is still running the MEC? Are you for real? Bob has retired in case you didn't know. I'm sure he has other interests and demands in his new life than "still running the MEC".

Hoser

 

[FightingIrish]

You have revealed www's identity and his thoughts that were in confidence to you irish. That is about as low as one can go in my book. I don't understand your motivation for doing so. But, understand this, you are undermining our efforts.

And you claim BA is still running the MEC? Are you for real? Bob has retired in case you didn't know. I'm sure he has other interests and demands in his new life than "still running the MEC".

Hoser

I didn't reveal www's identity. Many know who he is, but I didn't reveal it. I didn't want to publish his PM, but the information he conveyed is important. It matches information I have received from the Utley coalition and the LJ coalition. 3 separate sources are enough for me to consider it valid. My motivation is to FIX the mistakes that were/are being made. Forget politics and who likes who, this deals with our jobs.

You say that I am "undermining our efforts". How? By revealing information that the pilot group should know? What exactly are "our efforts"?

I know Bob retired, but why would www. and members of the Utley coalition both validate the information if it weren't true?

 

[HoserASA]

I didn't reveal www's identity.

Listen, you stated previous ALPA positions this individual has held. Are you that ignorant that people can't figure out who this individual is? Why you had to state positons this individual has held reveals that you cannot be trusted. www replied to you in confidence and you violated that trust. Doesn't say much for your character.

Hoser

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Fins wrote:

What do all the candidates have in common?

All of these people are seniority list pilots who are not currently looking to leave ASA. That means all of these people are going to be a part of this pilot group over the long term and all have the same long term interest.

Negative GhostRider! Barry Lee is trying to move on and he is not ashamed to talk about it. He will be gone sooner than later my friend.

 

[ASARJMan]

I didn't reveal www's identity. Many know who he is, but I didn't reveal it. I didn't want to publish his PM, but the information he conveyed is important.

Man you are a complete idiot and moron. Maybe some day soon we'll find out your identity so we can have a blanket party in the parking lot in your honor. What a loser, ratting someone out like that.

Voted In Favor of Striking ASA!

 

[John Pennekamp]

I am not voting for the Utley coalition, but I do believe Ed and Danny. They have more credibility than Will. If what you say is true, then Will can do something about it now that he is half the MEC.

Apparently, you've been too busy ratting out your sources on Flightinfo to read the latest progress updates in negotiations. When the MEC met in LAS, what you say is exactly what happened, and the plan was enacted last week.

You may also be interested to know that Danny denies everything you say he said about Newie and the MEC. Since I too agree that his credibility is of the upmost integrity, and yours was lost when you outed www YOU are the one who has come into question!

 

[scott hall]

Ahh fighting within the union?