Thrust reverse...

[B1900FO]

Hey all!

Lets talk technique since the many responses can be interesting and very informative...

The use of thrust reverse always stirs up controversey but here's how I go about it:

As soon as the mains are on I pick up the levers and wait for the "6 lights," irregardless of whether or not the nose is in the air. I slowly fly the nose wheel onto the ground and tap the brakes lightly to make sure they are there. I'm not a fan of using a lot of reverse, though, mainly because it's loud and uncomfortable for the passengers. With that being said, a few of the short runways I have flown into in the Citation, the reverse thrust was certainly nice to have. I would rather go into full reverse and be light on the brakes than to go heavy on the brakes and have no reverse at all. Although, the brakes on the C501 always amaze me.

In smaller a/c, thrust reverse just boosts pilot ego, and its fun!

Comment all you like!!!

 

[400A]

Hey all!

Lets talk technique since the many responses can be interesting and very informative...

The use of thrust reverse always stirs up controversey but here's how I go about it:

As soon as the mains are on I pick up the levers and wait for the "6 lights," irregardless of whether or not the nose is in the air. I slowly fly the nose wheel onto the ground and tap the brakes lightly to make sure they are there. I'm not a fan of using a lot of reverse, though, mainly because it's loud and uncomfortable for the passengers. With that being said, a few of the short runways I have flown into in the Citation, the reverse thrust was certainly nice to have. I would rather go into full reverse and be light on the brakes than to go heavy on the brakes and have no reverse at all. Although, the brakes on the C501 always amaze me.

In smaller a/c, thrust reverse just boosts pilot ego, and its fun!

Comment all you like!!!

Thats the way we do it in the Beechjet. For the Citation though, I always wanted the nose on the ground.

 

[southernpilot]

In the Hawker, one puts all of the wheels on, deploy Lift Dump, then use T.R.s. It not only works well, this is what the book says to do.
On passenger comfort, I always use speed brakes and T.R.s whenever I want to. Not one passenger has ever complained.........only other pilots.

 

[Diesel]

We don't pop the TR's in the Ultra until the nose is on the ground because of the amount of nose gear collpases that have happened. Now granted we do more cycles in a month than most flight departments in a year but the reasoning is still sound.

According to cessna when the TR's unlock and deploy there is a hydraulic spike that can actually unlock the nosegear. They changed the way we do things and wait till the nosewheel is on the ground and then pop the TR's. Nose wheel collapses went to 0.

 

[Stealthh21]

The Lear 60 requires the nose gear to be on the ground before deployment. Never had a passenger complain about the use of them. Why would they. I think they would like to know that the airplane is stopping, and they know very well that they are on an airplane, and are expecting certain sounds coming from it.

There are ways to use them and be smooth about it.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I think it is better technique to put all three gear on the ground.

One reason is to help maintain directional control in the event of 1 deployed TR. I've never heard of it happening, but apparently it is possible for 1 TR to deploy and then increase power as if both TR's where deployed and in use. The added directional control provided by the nose wheel is of great help in that event.

Of course, it maybe more likely that you could cause a TR enduced nose pitch up if the nose wheel is still elevated. Especially in a Citation, Lear or any aircraft with the power plants on the fuselage and aft and above the wings.

 

[400A]

The Lear 60 requires the nose gear to be on the ground before deployment. Never had a passenger complain about the use of them. Why would they. I think they would like to know that the airplane is stopping, and they know very well that they are on an airplane, and are expecting certain sounds coming from it.

There are ways to use them and be smooth about it.

Some owners (Like Mine) do not like the noise and shake. He knows I will use them if I need to and never complains.

I imagine the bigger the airplane and the further aft they are the less offensive they are.

I know the Astra shakes really bad.

 

[400A]

I think it is better technique to put all three gear on the ground.

One reason is to help maintain directional control in the event of 1 deployed TR. I've never heard of it happening, but apparently it is possible for 1 TR to deploy and then increase power as if both TR's where deployed and in use. The added directional control provided by the nose wheel is of great help in that event.

Of course, it maybe more likely that you could cause a TR enduced nose pitch up if the nose wheel is still elevated. Especially in a Citation, Lear or any aircraft with the power plants on the fuselage and aft and above the wings.

I have had one deploy several times in the Beechjet, and as long as you do not spool it up, it will not even leave the centerline. I believe it is more critical in the Citation.

 

[Gatorman]

Note from the maintenance room:
The use of aircraft brakes -vs- thrust reversers from the mechanic's side is, use which ever cost less to replace (labor and material).
Brakes - the more expensive of the two are more likely to be replaced more often. Easier to replace. In some instances you can get a pro-rated replacement.
Thrust reversers (clam shell and vectored thrust) in most cases are more time consuming to inspect and replace parts on. Mostly bushings need to be replaced and they are in very difficult places to access. Some aircraft with clam shell T/Rs have NDT requirement on the connecting rods and/or are a life limited part that will have to be replaced any way.

I have made more money for the company working on T/Rs (labor) than I have changing brakes. (parts being more expensive here).

Bottom line...how do you want to spend the money?

 

[getonit]

In the Citation Ultra there is a AFM supplement that says something about not deploying until all 3 wheels are on the ground, I would probably go with that.

My personal opinion is that the T/R's aren't that effective on the citation anyway. I have experimented on long runways with applying max thrust and nothing really fantastic happens because if you land on speed you are already going fairly slow anyway.

 

[B1900FO]

I have had one deploy several times in the Beechjet, and as long as you do not spool it up, it will not even leave the centerline. I believe it is more critical in the Citation.

As a matter of fact, if you go full reverse w/ one bucket open in the Beechjet it won't leave the centerline...we tried it one day.

My personal opinion is that the T/R's aren't that effective on the citation anyway. I have experimented on long runways with applying max thrust and nothing really fantastic happens because if you land on speed you are already going fairly slow anyway.

I would readily agree with this statement. That is why I typically don't spool the reverse up in the Citation. By the time the engines have completely spooled up, you're passing through 70 kts...

 

[h25b]

Learjet 31A...

Touchdown, immediately deploy the spoilers...
Upon nosegear touchdown deploy T/R's
@ 60 kts. T/R's out of "Full Reverse"

Don't get me started on brake usage...

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Say Hawker-boy.....

Learjet 31A...

Touchdown, immediately deploy the spoilers...
Upon nosegear touchdown deploy T/R's
@ 60 kts. T/R's out of "Full Reverse"


Don't get me started on brake usage...

.....isn't "Lift-dump" good enough for you anymore???!!!

 

[h25b]

.....isn't "Lift-dump" good enough for you anymore???!!!

I really miss the Hawker... You're going to get me emotional. When I flew the Hawker given the choice of which one I'd prefer to be inop., I'd rather give up the T/R's. If you get the chance on a long runway land without using the lift-dump. You'll be amazed how effective that system is.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Lift-dump is great...

I really miss the Hawker... You're going to get me emotional. When I flew the Hawker given the choice of which one I'd prefer to be inop., I'd rather give up the T/R's. If you get the chance on a long runway land without using the lift-dump. You'll be amazed how effective that system is.

.....especially when landing on that short runway at "Mucho Poco" Aeropuerto.

Y tu lo sabes, amigo!

 

[Hawker800]

My Hawker does not have T/R's. Just the mighty dump.

 

[pilotviolin]

Go to FSI Citation in Wichita and ask for the '20 limitations on the TR's' guy! Anyone in the Ultra and Encore can tell ya about him. I am sure he would have a hey day with your technique. Get that nose wheel down!

 

[h25b]

My Hawker does not have T/R's. Just the mighty dump.

I'd hate to admit it because my male ego loves TR's as much as the next but they really are dead weight on the 800 series Hawkers. When you fly one with TR's you'll find out what I'm talking about.

 

[gear_guy]

My opinion is that we, as pilots, are risk managers. If you look at T/R usage from this perspective, one cannot help but see that the SAFEST operation is after the nose wheel is firmly on the ground. You can go back and forth on technique. But in this job, we should always take the safest route.

 

[400A]

My opinion is that we, as pilots, are risk managers. If you look at T/R usage from this perspective, one cannot help but see that the SAFEST operation is after the nose wheel is firmly on the ground. You can go back and forth on technique. But in this job, we should always take the safest route.

As with every flight we make, it depends on the situation. On a shorter runway, delaying the buckets may not be the SAFEST. That would be VERY aircraft specific.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow.... the nose wheel discussion...

Unless there is an aircraft specific limitation that says not too...

Real pilots deploy the TR with the nose wheel UP!! Get into the books then get back to this thread....

 

[Diesel]

Ummm can the Rev even join in this discussion since we all know the regionals are trying to save 3 cents a landing by avoiding TR useage.

Cessna has told us not to deploy unless the nose wheel is down to prevent they hydraulic spike.

 

[j41driver]

deleted

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The 717 reversers won't deploy until the nose wheel is on the ground regardless of what you've done with the levers in the cockpit. Something about the big buckets coming too close to the ground with the nose in the air.

CRJ reverse thrust seemed to be pretty much useless except as a noise maker.

DoJet didn't have it...didn't need it. Big carbon brakes worked really well.

717 limitation might be a DC-9 carry over... anyone??

CRJ.... works good last long time...

Dork.... straight wing.......

 

[FL420]

Are those of you who think it's okay to deploy the reversers with the nosewheel in the air, especially those of you with wing-mounted engines, absolutely sure you have enough rudder authority to keep it between the white lines if only one reverser deploys or spools up?

 

[j41driver]

Not sure why I deleted my post...meant to in another thread. Maybe it's time to put the beer away.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Are those of you who think it's okay to deploy the reversers with the nosewheel in the air, especially those of you with wing-mounted engines, absolutely sure you have enough rudder authority to keep it between the white lines if only one reverser deploys or spools up?

Perhaps my tailwheel time gives me a false sense of security... most guys give up about five feet off the ground with Xcross winds, side gear loads and no aileron during roll out..... but I don't stop flying the jet till its clear of the runway..... that includes TR deployment.

Since TR is most effective at higher speeds... An effective way to use TR is to get the reversers configured while the TW is still up, meaning the buckets or cascades deployed. Once the nose wheel is down then increase the thrust from idle. This way one is not wasting time waiting for the NW to derotate as stopping distance is reduced....

What is really comes down to is policy. Otherwise it is just technique...

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Not a carry-over from DC9/MD80

717 limitation might be a DC-9 carry over... anyone??

.....I did not know that about the B717. It is not a carry-over from the DC9 or MD80. Both versions of the DC9 type will allow the TRs to deploy regardless of the nose wheel position.

Tid Bit: SAS had a technique of flying Ref + 5 over the numbers and deploying the TRs just before touch down. This was used when landing on short, icy runways with auto-brakes and spoilers. At least that is what a couple of former SAS pilots told me.

 

[400A]

.....I did not know that about the B717. It is not a carry-over from the DC9 or MD80. Both versions of the DC9 type will allow the TRs to deploy regardless of the nose wheel position.

Tid Bit: SAS had a technique of flying Ref + 5 over the numbers and deploying the TRs just before touch down. This was used when landing on short, icy runways with auto-brakes and spoilers. At least that is what a couple of former SAS pilots told me.

Did squat switches allow that? The DC-8 was the only one I had ever heard of reversing in flight.

I did know of an idiot that used to do it in a E-90. Scared the crap out of me.

 

[400A]

Since TR is most effective at higher speeds... An effective way to use TR is to get the reversers configured while the TW is still up, meaning the buckets or cascades deployed. Once the nose wheel is down then increase the thrust from idle. This way one is not wasting time waiting for the NW to derotate as stopping distance is reduced....

What is really comes down to is policy. Otherwise it is just technique...

That is exactly the way we do it. It helps the nose gear sit down softer as well. As you mentioned, I have flown with many guys who relax the entire yoke the minute one wheel touches. YUK!!!!