Rebuttal against age 65 (for FoxHunter and Jim Smith)

[General Lee]

Everybody loves to say there is age discrimination out there. They also love to say "if Europe (or ICAO) allows their pilots to fly over age 65 to the US, then we should..." Here are some rules that maybe should be changed too, just to make everyone happy.

1. In Europe there really is NO drinking age. I have seen 14 year old kids in Germany drink large steins of beer. They looked like they were doing just fine. Let's raise the age here in the States, since many countries in Europe do it. I don't think drunk driving deaths will go up......

2. Drugs. They allow it in parks in Zurich. Any drug you want. Go for it. The crime rate doesn't seem to be that bad in Zurich, even with drugs in the open. Let's allow it here.

3. Voting. Most kids probably know what is going on. We should change that rule and allow everyone to vote.

4. Driving age. Kids in Nebraska and Kansas can get their license at age 14, because they have to drive to school from their far off farms. I think they do a good job. Let's change it for everyone. They seem safe.


And, is there age discrimination in the Constitution? Yes there is. There is a minimum age to become President of the United States. Should we re-write the Constitution? Foxhunter and Jim Smyth want to. Age 60 should stay because we all know it to be safe. Should we change the driving age too because a 15 year old could probably do well too? Let's change all of the rules. Do it. You can't change one (over age 60 pilots, without changing the driving age--age 14 and up.) They both have about the same danger.

I win.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Whine Lover]

G.L. ,

Are you wasted today or what? You usually make sense. (?)

O.K. Here we go:



1. In Europe there really is NO drinking age. I have seen 14 year old kids in Germany drink large steins of beer. They looked like they were doing just fine. Let's raise the age here in the States, since many countries in Europe do it. I don't think drunk driving deaths will go up......

- You MEAN: "Lower" the age. Right? And, as a matter of fact, the European countrys have much LESS of a problem with teenagers and alcohol because it is not made something tabooo or mysterious to them.


2. Drugs. They allow it in parks in Zurich. Any drug you want. Go for it. The crime rate doesn't seem to be that bad in Zurich, even with drugs in the open. Let's allow it here.


- That's right. It is a proven fact around the World. Decriminalize drug use and the crime rate decreases.


3. Voting. Most kids probably know what is going on. We should change that rule and allow everyone to vote.

- I think we can agree a 3 year old doesn't have the cognitive capacity to do so. Right?


5. Driving age. Kids in Nebraska and Kansas can get their license at age 14, because they have to drive to school from their far off farms. I think they do a good job. Let's change it for everyone. They seem safe.

- Why? Do we ALL live in rural, agrarian, locales? I think NOT...


General, your above proclamations are non-sensical at best, and comic in the extreme.


That said...I TEND TO AGREE WITH YOU.


Age 60 is what it is...Right or wrong.


The Azz-Wipes who have managed to live above their means for WAY too many years want it changed now in the last quarter of their so-called careers.

The derelicts of this Industry who NEED to work until the arthritis/cancer/medical problems remove them at age 76 from some Non-Sched / Legacy bunghole now demand this rule change to save their sorry butts from a lifetime of poor monetary decisions.

Fark Em'. I have NO sympathy.

Upgrade that Kid who has been waiting for his slot....


Love,


YKW

 

[G4G5]

Everybody loves to say there is age discrimination out there. They also love to say "if Europe (or ICAO) allows their pilots to fly over age 65 to the US, then we should..." Here are some rules that maybe should be changed too, just to make everyone happy.

1. In Europe there really is NO drinking age. I have seen 14 year old kids in Germany drink large steins of beer. They looked like they were doing just fine. Let's raise the age here in the States, since many countries in Europe do it. I don't think drunk driving deaths will go up......

All of Europe has a drinking age.
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/LegalDrinkingAge.html

2. Drugs. They allow it in parks in Zurich. Any drug you want. Go for it. The crime rate doesn't seem to be that bad in Zurich, even with drugs in the open. Let's allow it here.

Try smoking pot in the UK (class B drug, 5 years max)

3. Voting. Most kids probably know what is going on. We should change that rule and allow everyone to vote.

What? Change the law Vs edguate the youth, hummmm

4. Driving age. Kids in Nebraska and Kansas can get their license at age 14, because they have to drive to school from their far off farms. I think they do a good job. Let's change it for everyone. They seem safe.

But they can't have a beer until they are 21. It makes much more sence to be able to kill people in Iraq at age 18 and then have to wait 3 years for a drink


And, is there age discrimination in the Constitution? Yes there is. There is a minimum age to become President of the United States. Should we re-write the Constitution? Foxhunter and Jim Smyth want to. Age 60 should stay because we all know it to be safe. Should we change the driving age too because a 15 year old could probably do well too? Let's change all of the rules. Do it. You can't change one (over age 60 pilots, without changing the driving age--age 14 and up.) They both have about the same danger.

I win.

Bye Bye--General Lee

It's going to happen sooner or later plan for it

 

[doh]

I vote yes for lowering the drinking age and decriminalizing drugs. The voting thing I'm not sure about. If we issue drivers licenses based on demonstrated ability with the same rigor as we test pilots, then sure, why not allow younger folks to take the test. These older pilots have demonstrated ability and as long as they continue to demonstrate that ability, let them fly. We all win then!

 

[FoxHunter]

Everybody loves to say there is age discrimination out there. They also love to say "if Europe (or ICAO) allows their pilots to fly over age 65 to the US, then we should..." Here are some rules that maybe should be changed too, just to make everyone happy.

1. In Europe there really is NO drinking age. I have seen 14 year old kids in Germany drink large steins of beer. They looked like they were doing just fine. Let's raise the age here in the States, since many countries in Europe do it. I don't think drunk driving deaths will go up......

2. Drugs. They allow it in parks in Zurich. Any drug you want. Go for it. The crime rate doesn't seem to be that bad in Zurich, even with drugs in the open. Let's allow it here.

3. Voting. Most kids probably know what is going on. We should change that rule and allow everyone to vote.

4. Driving age. Kids in Nebraska and Kansas can get their license at age 14, because they have to drive to school from their far off farms. I think they do a good job. Let's change it for everyone. They seem safe.


And, is there age discrimination in the Constitution? Yes there is. There is a minimum age to become President of the United States. Should we re-write the Constitution? Foxhunter and Jim Smyth want to. Age 60 should stay because we all know it to be safe. Should we change the driving age too because a 15 year old could probably do well too? Let's change all of the rules. Do it. You can't change one (over age 60 pilots, without changing the driving age--age 14 and up.) They both have about the same danger.

I win.

Bye Bye--General Lee

ICAO reports the age 58-63 age group have the best record.

"Neither is the Secretariat aware of scientific research that dictates the maintenance of the current upper age limit. On the contrary, studies conducted in Japan (1990) and United States (1993) both gave indication that pilots’ retirement age could safely be increased by several years, and a very recent study of 165 commuter aircraft accidents in the United States between 1983 and 1997 points to no notable differences between the age groups except that the percentage of crashes involving pilot error decreased somewhat with age, being lowest for pilots between 58 and 63."

 

[AAflyer]

ICAO reports the age 58-63 age group have the best record.

"Neither is the Secretariat aware of scientific research that dictates the maintenance of the current upper age limit. On the contrary, studies conducted in Japan (1990) and United States (1993) both gave indication that pilots’ retirement age could safely be increased by several years, and a very recent study of 165 commuter aircraft accidents in the United States between 1983 and 1997 points to no notable differences between the age groups except that the percentage of crashes involving pilot error decreased somewhat with age, being lowest for pilots between 58 and 63."

WOW, talking about making numbers work in your favor.

Guess what, airlne xyz with 1 airplane is competing with abc with 700. In a one month period xyz completed their one daily flight 5 times a week on schedule, abc dealt with a few storms and only completed 90% of their flights on time. We will rank xyz #1 on on-time performance. abc is ranked #2.

AA

Common Fox, you can do a lot better than that, after all with that wisdom and experience that comes with age you can think of a better rebuttal.

 

[satpak77]

Everybody loves to say there is age discrimination out there. They also love to say "if Europe (or ICAO) allows their pilots to fly over age 65 to the US, then we should..." Here are some rules that maybe should be changed too, just to make everyone happy.

1. In Europe there really is NO drinking age. I have seen 14 year old kids in Germany drink large steins of beer. They looked like they were doing just fine. Let's raise the age here in the States, since many countries in Europe do it. I don't think drunk driving deaths will go up......

2. Drugs. They allow it in parks in Zurich. Any drug you want. Go for it. The crime rate doesn't seem to be that bad in Zurich, even with drugs in the open. Let's allow it here.

3. Voting. Most kids probably know what is going on. We should change that rule and allow everyone to vote.

4. Driving age. Kids in Nebraska and Kansas can get their license at age 14, because they have to drive to school from their far off farms. I think they do a good job. Let's change it for everyone. They seem safe.


And, is there age discrimination in the Constitution? Yes there is. There is a minimum age to become President of the United States. Should we re-write the Constitution? Foxhunter and Jim Smyth want to. Age 60 should stay because we all know it to be safe. Should we change the driving age too because a 15 year old could probably do well too? Let's change all of the rules. Do it. You can't change one (over age 60 pilots, without changing the driving age--age 14 and up.) They both have about the same danger.

I win.

Bye Bye--General Lee

My question is if Age 60 is "age discrimination" why is age 65 not age discrimination. We raise the age to 65, and how does the age disc argument get nullified?

Would the pro-Age 65 group please explain...

 

[General Lee]

G.L. ,

Are you wasted today or what? You usually make sense. (?)

O.K. Here we go:



1. In Europe there really is NO drinking age. I have seen 14 year old kids in Germany drink large steins of beer. They looked like they were doing just fine. Let's raise the age here in the States, since many countries in Europe do it. I don't think drunk driving deaths will go up......

- You MEAN: "Lower" the age. Right? And, as a matter of fact, the European countrys have much LESS of a problem with teenagers and alcohol because it is not made something tabooo or mysterious to them.


2. Drugs. They allow it in parks in Zurich. Any drug you want. Go for it. The crime rate doesn't seem to be that bad in Zurich, even with drugs in the open. Let's allow it here.


- That's right. It is a proven fact around the World. Decriminalize drug use and the crime rate decreases.


3. Voting. Most kids probably know what is going on. We should change that rule and allow everyone to vote.

- I think we can agree a 3 year old doesn't have the cognitive capacity to do so. Right?


5. Driving age. Kids in Nebraska and Kansas can get their license at age 14, because they have to drive to school from their far off farms. I think they do a good job. Let's change it for everyone. They seem safe.

- Why? Do we ALL live in rural, agrarian, locales? I think NOT...


General, your above proclamations are non-sensical at best, and comic in the extreme.


That said...I TEND TO AGREE WITH YOU.


Age 60 is what it is...Right or wrong.


The Azz-Wipes who have managed to live above their means for WAY too many years want it changed now in the last quarter of their so-called careers.

The derelicts of this Industry who NEED to work until the arthritis/cancer/medical problems remove them at age 76 from some Non-Sched / Legacy bunghole now demand this rule change to save their sorry butts from a lifetime of poor monetary decisions.

Fark Em'. I have NO sympathy.

Upgrade that Kid who has been waiting for his slot....


Love,


YKW

No, I am not on drugs. I am giving a great rebuttal to the people who think "since Europe is doing it, we should too." Some countries in Europe have a drinking age limit, some do not. Should we follow everything they do, like raising the age to 65, when in reality it is because Europe is experiencing a LCC boom and they have run out of pilots? We don't have that problem here. And kids in Kansas and Nebraska can get their drivers licenses at age 14 (my cousin in Wichita got it at 14 too--is that a small town?). My question was, since they seem to be doing fine, maybe everyone should get it at 14 (sarcastically----we all know there is a good reason for that age limit, but who is to judge? The age 60 rule for pilots is another). Get my point yet? It is good you agree, since I am right.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

ICAO reports the age 58-63 age group have the best record.

"Neither is the Secretariat aware of scientific research that dictates the maintenance of the current upper age limit. On the contrary, studies conducted in Japan (1990) and United States (1993) both gave indication that pilots’ retirement age could safely be increased by several years, and a very recent study of 165 commuter aircraft accidents in the United States between 1983 and 1997 points to no notable differences between the age groups except that the percentage of crashes involving pilot error decreased somewhat with age, being lowest for pilots between 58 and 63."

ICAO was pressured to change the rule by European countries that are SHORT on pilots, due to the LCC boom over there. That is the reason. They didn't just wake up and say "let's be fair to the old guys..." Did you hear about the AA 777 Captain who died of a heart attack landing in RDU from LGW? Just one crash is too much. You know that. Does the Secratariat know about our system of getting Class 1 medicals? We can buy one. Sad but true. You know that too. Do they? And the crashes involving pilots between 58 and 63? Do we have any commercial pilots here that are over 60? How do they know about that age group here? In the States our average citizen is overweight, and many senior captains are out of shape. Maybe they aren't in other parts of the workd, but here they are. Again, you know that. That study doesn't work here, since there are no pilots over 60 flying for commercial carriers here.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

My question is if Age 60 is "age discrimination" why is age 65 not age discrimination. We raise the age to 65, and how does the age disc argument get nullified?

Would the pro-Age 65 group please explain...

When Mars attacks, we will then bump it up to 67 because there was a run on the banks and people lost money......... This is all a sham.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I vote yes for lowering the drinking age and decriminalizing drugs. The voting thing I'm not sure about. If we issue drivers licenses based on demonstrated ability with the same rigor as we test pilots, then sure, why not allow younger folks to take the test. These older pilots have demonstrated ability and as long as they continue to demonstrate that ability, let them fly. We all win then!

Should we lower the driving age if the kids can demonstrate ability? I will tell my nephew to hit the go cart track after school everyday. He is 10 years old, but by 12 he could probably handle highway driving and parallel parking...
Would you agree to that too? You can't do one without the other. Then you would be a hypocrite.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[instructordude]

Great posts General.

 

[ils2minimums]

My question is if Age 60 is "age discrimination" why is age 65 not age discrimination. We raise the age to 65, and how does the age disc argument get nullified?

The answer is it doesn't... What'll happen is this: When the current batch of guys who are trying to change the rules during the 11th hour of their career turn 65, they'll start whining again about how 65 is discriminatory and they have never been healthier and 75 is the new 45, and on and on and on...

So we'll get to endure another 5 or 10 years of stagnation while Great Grandpa wakes from his trans-Atlantic nap, puts his teeth in, and slams one on at JFK, then goes out to his Oldsmobile and heads for the early bird special at Hometown Buffet...

Man, wouldn't it be great if we could pull this crap in other areas of our lives? Imagine paying for a movie, watching it, and then when you're supposed to leave, you decide to keep your seat and watch the movie again while another guy who paid the same amount you did has to wait in the lobby because the theater is full.

Amusement parks would be a blast! You could wait in line for the best roller coaster, then once you get the primo seat, you could just KEEP IT ALL DAY!!!
(of course it'd suck to be the guy waiting next in line). But hey, I GOT MINE, SO SCREW THAT GUY!!!

I hope it doesn't change, but if it does, I'll just live with it and wish it hadn't...

 

[UpNDownGuy]

Ouch..my head hurts....

Did you hear about the AA 777 Captain who died of a heart attack landing in RDU from LGW?

Did I miss AA starting 777 service from London to Raleigh?

The age 60 rule is a joke. Invest 30 seconds of your life and learn about the history of the age 60 rule. It has, and never has, had the slightest possible thing to do with safety.

What I don't get is the reason most youngsters have for hating it. So we change the age 60 rule to 65, and it takes you 5 more years to upgrade. You then fly to 65, and hold Captain for exactly the same amount of time, except that now you have additional years as a pilot as income. You make more money overall.

Other than the fact that you have to wait to be a Captain a little longer, why are you against it? Do you need that 4th stripe RIGHT NOW, or you're going to cry about it? Seems like a pretty good indication you're not emotionally ready to be in command anyway...

I say this as a relatively young FO on the bottom of the seniority list...

 

[satpak77]

If you go to the DOT comments site, all you hear is "age discrimination" and the rules is "out of date" etc

But raise it 5 years? How did we determine 5 years, not 3,4,6, or 7? What scientific evidence for this?

Here are some gems of comments ( on public internet)

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p87/420437.tif


http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p87/420440.tif


http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p87/420375.txt


http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p87/420384.txt

 

[satpak77]

Double Post - Sorry

 

[3BCat]

If the French get wine with their crew meals, we should too. Why fight it? Sometimes you just have to defer to the older established societies to learn how it should be done.

 

[ils2minimums]

UpNDownGuy wrote:
Did I miss AA starting 777 service from London to Raleigh?

Apparantly you did:
AMERICAN AIRLINES 174 RDU-LGW
Raleigh/ Durham
06:45 PM
London
0700AM 777Economy
7 hr 15 min




AMERICAN AIRLINES 173 LGW-RDU
London
12:40 PM
Raleigh/ Durham
04:15 PM 777Economy
8 hr 35 min





What I don't get is the reason most youngsters have for hating it. So we change the age 60 rule to 65, and it takes you 5 more years to upgrade.

Do you seriously want to put your life on hold for 5 years? I don't. I didn't intend to fly to 65 either. I wanted to get out at 60 like the TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GUYS BEFORE ME DID!!! (They'll most likely change the retirement plans also, which'll make it more penalizing if I actually choose to leave at 60)

Other than the fact that you have to wait to be a Captain a little longer, why are you against it?

See above answer

I say this as a relatively young FO on the bottom of the seniority list...

Come on now... How young can you be with 13000 hours?


AA has served London from RDU for as long as I've been here. (1991)

 

[satpak77]

BOTTOM LINE

There is no valid "age discrimination" argument for changing age 60 to age 65. To simply change age 60 and require ongoing medicals and sim checks, fine. But to raise it five years because the "60 part" was "age discrimination" and make it Age 65 which somehow is not age discrimination, that won't fly.

BET ON IT.

Too many pilot lounge experts and old head captains who think ATP also means "law degree" are about to be disappointed when the rule is kept in place.

AGAIN - I can GUARANTEE that not one court/legislative body/etc is going to abolish Age 60 and change it to Age 65 because "Age 60 is age discrimination"

I flat out guarantee this.

 

[ils2minimums]

If the French get wine with their crew meals, we should too. Why fight it? Sometimes you just have to defer to the older established societies to learn how it should be done.

My sentiments exactly! I'm gonna do it how the French do it!

Tomorrow I will:

-Stop wearing deodorant,
-Start smoking 3 packs a day,
-Hate Americans (except Jerry Lewis)
-Become a coward...