Some Owners Have Gripes too (And Sympathy for Crews)

[2EASYPilot]

More and more corporations are moving to a frac strategy as corporate flight departments have become incredibly unpopular as of late.


While I certainly appreciate your POV, I believe what is giving corporate aircraft ownership a black eye is the abuse of egocentic CEO's. My management does not believe in personal use of the aircraft, only business. Given we have a very high utilization rate the fractional model does not work for us. I know, we hired a consultant to do the numbers for us, in excess of a million more. Not a good option unless you merely are interested in keeping a low profile. What was pointed out to us was be careful of the fine print in fractional contracts, it will drive the costs right off the chart.
The best to you in your travels.

 

[Corona]

Yes, this is the internet. No, I don't always agree with pilots. But when a company such as NetJets, FlexJet, or FLOPS asserts that we (owners) own the jet and the "company" works for us, then we demand results. Otherwise, just as if we owned the plane free and clear, we can change who manages our planes for us.

I'll go a step further, although management and the call centers will attempt to pretend as if they don’t work for owners and only the pilots do, management is ultimately responsible for the collective. If they want to piss us off, go ahead--but be prepared to run a bevy of ad campaigns to replace formerly satisfied customers.

This isn't the airlines, we are willing to pay for service (read: convenience). We aren't willing to pay for airline-style BS. The flight crews are first rate, but management cannot maintain quality customer care.

I will say this though. Many owners do read this, just as many CEO’s read about what is said about them on Yahoo bulletin boards and chatrooms. I can assure people on here that management at the fracs read this. It makes the gold that was once a focus group look like pure drivel. If things got better, I’d go back. But I would need to see real change first.

OK magoo112; your posts have piqued my interest. I'm guessing that by what you've said here about owning corporate jets that you are successful in the business world.

Do you think you (or someone like you) could personally manage NJ (or Flex/Flt Options) and implement your suggested improvements while maintaining profitability and capacity for growth? This is a serious inquiry here; no flame intended...

C

 

[jetwash]

[COLOR=black
[COLOR=black]Well although you may not think I am a (former) owner, you should know that my view is more prevalent than you would believe on the owner side. /SIZE][/FONT]

After reading Magoo112's posts I have to say that he is for real.
The give away was that the posts were well thought out and the spelling and grammer were correct.:laugh:

How many pilots can write like that:0

 

[JustInfo]

Pffffffffft, Jetwash, that was fluid coming out my nose as I read your post! Now that was funny, thanks!

 

[magoo112]

OK magoo112; your posts have piqued my interest. I'm guessing that by what you've said here about owning corporate jets that you are successful in the business world. C

Well, I certainly thank you for your praise.
For some background, I actually am the CEO of a public company that does not have an extensive need for travel and cannot justify (although my employees may feel we should) owning a private aircraft. I feel shareholder responsibility is crucial; thus if I needed a jet, I would own one. If I have to charter a jet I will. However if I have to get to Tokyo, there are 7 flights per day from JFK-NRT that can carry me comfortably and luxuriously. If I need to go from JFK-LAX and am not on a set schedule, why should I have my company spend 70k to charter me a plane to get me there and satisfy my ego? The answer is, I don’t. On the other hand, if a mid-level employee is visiting Dahlonega, GA, Nashville, Waco, and other spots off the track of the commercial airline “Riviera” than he or she can charter a small jet to do their work in one day so he doesn’t miss four days of work.

For personal travel, I will say I prefer the Private Aircraft as my family enjoys it and it’s convenient for our changing schedules and destinations. NEVER would I behave as a Tyco or an Enron CEO and have the shareholders of my company pay for a dog to be sent to NYC to be groomed and sent to us on a vacation in one day. Nor does my company pay for ANY personal travel. I feel sad this is not the norm, but I was raised to be honest. I feel such CEOs are irresponsible and their actions will (and usually do) lead to their downfall. Case in point, we acquired a company centered on one region of the USA (three states to be exact). All of their outfits were near major airports and their home office was near a hub for a major carrier. Yet somehow, through the magic of “creative accounting”, they were able to justify buying a G-III that was mainly used by the CEOs wife. Well, that plane was the first extravagant asset sold off.

Do you think you (or someone like you) could personally manage NJ (or Flex/Flt Options) and implement your suggested improvements while maintaining profitability and capacity for growth? This is a serious inquiry here; no flame intended...

I appreciate your answer. I am guessing you have/had a position at one of the fracs and feel as I do.
It is inevitable that someone with responsibility turns frac outfits around. One of the beauties of the concept is that ideally an owner should be able to logon to a website or pick up a phone and get a plane with no hassle. Sadly, this turns out not to be what occurs. The outfits have seemed to require owner input in managing the planes constantly. Further they don’t follow through on promises. Look, anyone who can afford a share is smart enough to realize that a Falcon 50 is NOT suitable replacement for a G-IV, nor is a vintage 601 for a 604. There is no recourse for an owner when he or she constantly gets charter replacements, even on trips booked in advance. The fracs have FAILED here. Don’t lie (which is what they are doing), don’t tell an owner that their plane will have range to go from TEB-EGE if you are assuming there is light baggage, two pax, and there are perfect conditions for flight, don’t make the customer mad. The more spent on these deals, the more angry an owner will be when he or she doesn’t get what is promised.

The “worse case” scenario for fracs is something they must not believe can happen. Pilots must be well rested, paid and happy. End of story. G-d forbid a plane crashes with Tiger Woods or a billionaire and his young family and it is due to pilot fatigue or getting a charter replacement with sub-standard pilots, owners will leave like rats on a ship. The only option would be to switch to a Marquis Card / charter model as there will be a surplus of aircraft. This can all be avoided.

How? RAISE the costs of entry, the operating costs, and the hourlies. SAY NO. Hey, if the plane can’t do something, it will be a pain for them and for me if I find out on my first vacation rather than hearing “Sorry Mr. xxx, this plane cant do that. We have another aircraft that may be better suited for yoru needs.” TELL the owners what goes on. I don’t want to find out from a pilot or the WSJ or an internet forum they are unhappy. If pilots have real concerns, there is an obvious solution. As management should ideally be managing my aircraft, they should tell me what goes on. There is currently NO TRANSPARENCY. There should be annual or quarterly reports (similar to a Berkshire Hathaway shareholder letter) with a “state of the program” letter. Maybe there should be a way for owners to vote on KEY ISSUES like pilot pay. We aren’t cheap, we know you guys have kids to put in school, kitchens to remodel, mouths to feed; I would be surprised if an owner couldn’t acknowledge this. In addition, if costs are only recouped by new owners entering the program, well then it is the frac’s responsibility to rectify the situation. Their lack of planning DOES BECOME my problem. Considering there are only so many people in the country able to buy a share or a card, it seems logical to raise fees for current owners. My co-op fees rise, my parking garage fees rise, hell, taxi fees rise. There is no reason why the people who manage our aircraft aren’t ensuring that in the event of a lack of new owners that fees can cover a good portion of payroll and bills. My co-op isn’t going to say that our only source of income will be new owners. It would be dumb (for lack of any better adjective). Why should fracs operate differently?

So the answer you are looking for is yes, I think I could do a better job. Would I desire to? No. Do I think that management at any of these outfits will do a thing until they either A.) Go bankrupt, B.) Suffer a fatigue related crash, or C.) Are crippled by a strike? No. It seems that there is a lack of communication and they will keep adding more owners to the deck of cards until it crumbles. But it can be done, and one of the three fracs will disappear and deal with a s***load of unhappy owners before the other two wake up and smell the Starbucks.

 

[netjetwife]

Jetwash, I don't understand why that is, (about the spelling) but I have noticed it....

I found Magoo's posts insightful and they sound credible to me, too.

 

[netjetwife]

Mr. Magoo, what would you advise the overworked/underpaid frac pilots to do to raise their wages and secure the professional contract they deserve?

 

[magoo112]

I don't understand why that is, but I have noticed it....

I found Magoo's posts insightful and they sound credible to me, too.

Well I thank you NJwife and Jetwash. There are a plethora of other owners who know of this forum, many in the heavy jet category. After all, there are forums for owners of 60meter + yachts, rare cars, computer gadgetry. Why not for such a major buy as a aircraft!

In all seriousness, I can tell you that many airlines, appliance manufacturers, and service providers have senior executives reading these boards like a hawk now. While it is rare we reply, the content is pure gold. Motorola's design for their new telephones is derived from internet chartrooms. GE has designed appliances based on what housewives/men are looking for on remodeling forums. Cathay Pacific and British Airways have entire sections of executive meetings dedicated to clippings from forums like these for "non-focus group feedback". Famously, after British Airways took away a brand of champagne favored by First Class passengers, they griped about paying 12k for a ticket online and getting the “cheap stuff.” Lo and behold, without a focus group they put the $80 per bottle booze back two weeks later. A friend of mine in the gaming industry told me that focus groups can be notoriously wrong for key demographics (read: teenagers). But when teens are talking online about the latest Xbox 360 game you have a discussion which provides key feedback for designers often completely overlooked.

If the fracs aren’t on this board, it is a sign of a serious systemic customer relations problem—which will blow up in their faces.

 

[magoo112]

Mr. Magoo, what would you advise the overworked/underpaid frac pilots to do to raise their wages and secure the professional contract they deserve?

I would say that is the crucial issue here. How does it come about? By owners interfering or by pilots. Having the owners demand this is probably the wrong approach. Management will take it out on pilots. Instead, ALWAYS threaten to walkout. Nothing creates a need for Alka-Seltzer in the stomach of CEOs more than a labor crisis. This isn’t Delta. Many owners probably have had to deal with labor issues of their own. I know several owners called saying that the pilots should be given whatever they want. Someone who works for me and has a share in a smaller jet than I had said “give them BMW’s and bling-bling necklaces if it will keep them happy, but I won’t drive my family through a picket line to get onto the ramp for our holiday.”

Also, management CANNOT keep cutting costs for owners to appeal to a wider spectrum of card buyers. Look, it gets to the point that when you have to lower the price of a share to the point where you make NO MONEY it is not worth it. KEEP THE COSTS UP!

Classic example. In 2001, I got the American Express Centurion Card (the stupid black thing). I was told that I would get oh-so-many benefits, etc. What did AMEX do? Take a program which could have been a cash cow for long time members and instead allow 21 year old college students to be on the same status level as a billionaire. They diluted the program to the point that the wealthiest and loyalist clients of AMEX actually found their limits were the same with a Platinum, Gold or Green Card. There was just no “bling” factor. Since frac programs are no longer cost prohibitive due to management paying little attention to the need of flight crews, they have customers who think they are entitled to the world and alienate long-time customers by DILUTING the program!

Lastly, if management actually published what you guys make and send it to us, there would be owner outrage. I think my idea in my previous post of leaving it up to owners to determine if crews should get raises is a novel idea. We aren’t cheap and know that you guys have families and lives outside of a cockpit.

 

[RNObased]

Well first of all magoo I don't think you are a owner or ex-owner for that matter. For several reasons; most of the owners I have flown that can afford to fly on the kind of aircraft you are talking about are too busy counting or spending their money to post on a web site. The fact that you are talking about flying on a G-whiz and mention the pilots as having labor issues, doesn't ring true to me. Anyone in the biz knows that NJI and NJA are two different companies, NJA had the labor issue not the G-whiz boys of NJI. So that part doesn't make sense to me.

Also if you are who you say you are, why not have your own jet. I have flown people that are CEO's of companies of a lot smaller then you claim to run and say their time is too valuable to be on a airliner. Hell my time is too valuable to be on a airliner.

Anyway, I'm sorry had a bad experience and decide to charter, I believe that the people who fly the fractional jets of this world are some of the best biz jet pilots going, no matter what company they work for. Do I think we are underpaid, yes, do I think the company I work for is full of crap, on occasion absolutly. Do I think we suck??? NO. You fly on my plane and you get the best and safest ride money can buy.

I have been asked on a couple of occasions to come fly charter, no thanks that job blows, then there done that. Being on a pager 24/7 is the worst thing in the world. When you need to blast out of some place in a hurry at 10pm and they scramble a crew for you, how much rest do you think they have had??? Most frac pilots have work rules, that don't allow for no rest before flying a trans-con with a O-dark-thirty depture. Have you taken note of the charter accidents in the last couple of years??

Also been asked to fly corporate jets for companies. Well since the pilot is the first one to go when one of you CEOs get caught cooking the books that is a no go for me. I don't like looking for a job every time the stock market takes a dive.


Lastly you prefer a Challenger to a G-4??? Really??? Hmmmm...

 

[milehigh6080]

Wow! 24 posts before the thread took the inevitable turn for the worse, that has to be some kind of record.

RNO, why are you taking it so personally? He's been nothing but complimentary to the pilots througout the entire discussion. Disagree with his points if you must, but what end is served by calling him a liar?

 

[FR8DOG777]

I can only hope FLOPS' ceo reads this forum

I hope FLOPS' CEO reads this board on a daily basis. Maybe he will learn that he is closer to a labor dispute than he thinks. If we voted to strike tomorrow, I for one am willing to carry that sign. I know I am not the only one at FLOPS that feels this way.

I think deep down Sheeringa knows he has messed up big time, but his ego is larger than his pride. He is afraid of admitting he is a sub-par manager, and is in way over his head. He has basically screwed with each and every employee at FLOPS. His days are numbered. Sheeringa is FLOPS worst enemy.

Sheeringa disrespects the customers too. He flies around in their jets like a rock star on a MTV video. Lowering the resale value on these jets by putting more hours on them. Flops has the lowest buyback value of all the fractionals. hmmm I wonder why? Could it be all the unnecessary trips that are flown on the aircraft by management. Maybe it is the inept scheduling that takes place on a daily basis. If I was an owner I would have flightaware in my pda and track my plane's every move. I would also check where the plane they are sending me is coming from. It is nothing to do a two hour repo just to back up another plane. All of this lowers the resale value of the jet.


All of this egocentric activity is what is killing FLOPS. When Sheeringa flies to Orlando from Cleveland in a Beech jet, that costs the company thousands more than Sanjay could figure. First the operating cost of the trip. Second taking a plane and crew off of possible owner or jetpass trips. Third, most likely a chart during that day because the plane was being utilize in a frivolous way. Forth, lowering the resale values for the "real owners". Adding all that up, what could have been a $200 flight on Continental, cost the company thousands more.

Now for the cost you can't put a number on. Operation efficiency has declined mostly because we just don't care anymore. Sheeringa has single handedly busted everyone's moral. Not just the pilots anymore, but everyone that works for FLOPS. Jets are broken all over the country. Mechanics are upset so they aren't getting fixed as quickly as they once were. Schedulers schedule unreasonable days knowing deep down it won't work, they only have so much to work with. We once had over 200 planes and over 900 pilots. After Sheeringa became CEO and introduced his "Go Forward Plan" and stated in last years forth quarter company meeting that "there would absolutely be no layoffs." All of the sudden we are down to about 150 planes and 750 pilots and now Sheeringa is threatening to layoff 130 pilots after the first of the year.

So to all the fractional owners, jet card holders, or anyone looking at buying into a fractional, look long and hard at who is managing your plane. Charter is the number one complaint from FLOPS owners. You just don't know what you are getting. With FLOPS claiming they are financially broke I am willing to wager they are chartering from some substandard charter operators. Flops has cut the crews' food to nearly nothing. Cut the quality of the hotels to some very questionable properties, and increased the insurance premiums over 159%. All of this in the name of profitability. Does anyone think for one second that FLOPS hasn't cut on the quality of the charter operators they use? This is FLOPS biggest expense and would be the best target for profitability. All the other stuff; hotels, crew food, and insurance is a drop in the bucket compared to charter cost. If I were a prospecting owner I would want to see how many hours of charter that fractional spent last year and how much money was spent on charter. That would be a good clue on whether you will most likely be getting "your plane" or a possible charter flight.

Check out you fractional first before you buy, sorry about the pun but FLOPS paid hard eared money to trademark that latest sales scheme. Sheeringa give up on aviation, you already ruined one company stop before you ruin another. Owners and card holders I know you are frustrated because you aren't getting what you paid for. You have only one man at FLOPS to blame and that would be Sheeringa. The pilots at FLOPS hopefully won't have to strike. I for one am prepared and ready to. Once FLOPS manager realize I am not the only one we will obtain a fair contract. Then, and only then, will FLOPS be a respectable fractional instead of the bottom feeder it has become.

 

[netjetwife]

Uuuuuggghhh....the harsh realities of labor strife. Another look at how low morale affects productivity. You'd think they'd learn that the carrot approach works better, but the problem is that the stick is cheaper.... or so they think. Actually, it's not and eventually they figure that out.

Dig in your heels, stand your ground, and demand change in a loud voice. That will get their attention and your contract....

Thanks for the response, Mr. Magoo. It verified what I've long thought: owners would be quite receptive to the idea that you get what you pay for, and would want a top-notch, professional flight crew to fly their family. They wouldn't expect to get that for the low wages many frac pilots are paid.

Put your dues to good use... I hope you'll be sending out more banners and/or carrying those informational picket signs, Options pilots. Management will be embarrassed as they deserve to be, and the owners may be concerned enough to speak out on your behalf. Kudos to those showing their resolve; it bodes well for your future. NJW

 

[XShipRider]

Well, that plane was the first extravagant asset sold off.

Could you give Avery-Dennison a call? They recently laid off many workers
in the Cleveland area yet maintain a G-IV at CGF. Most of the workers
had 10+ years at the company.

That 30+ million dollar aircraft is draining salaries and resources.

 

[rettofly]

After reading Magoo112's posts I have to say that he is for real.
The give away was that the posts were well thought out and the spelling and grammer were correct.:laugh:

How many pilots can write like that:0

That would be GRAMMAR