Some Owners Have Gripes too (And Sympathy for Crews)

[magoo112]

I have been reading this forum for a while now.
For a quick history, I am a former NetJets owner (G-IV) and FlexJet owner (CL-604). Honest-to-truth. I like to know the ins and outs of what I get into and I can admit that I wish this board existed when making my purchases--both of which I now regret. At first, I only chartered a plane for work, such as a small lear when I needed to visit multiple cities in one day. This made jet travel easy for me as I wouldn't have to leave my family for days at a time. After the jet programs really "took-off" I purchased my first large share (CL-604) at FlexJet in the 90s. Prior to this, I had been chartering different large a/c. If I were thinking with my head I would have realized that FlexJet sales is basically like having a car dealer come to you. If I want to hear that a Mercedes will do XYZ, I'll be told it will. FlexJet told me the works... I'll never be given a chartered plane -- well less than xx% of the time with x hours notice (as if all of Manhattan wasn't already planning on going to SXM or EGE for Christmas). I can upgrade/downgrade to a different sized plane if my needs require it, ANYWHERE I want to go, it can be done. Flight Crew is always rested, aircraft are always maintained, the works...
My eventual sale in my favorite a/c (CL-604) was the cause of many bad incidents here are a sampling:
During a 7 stop trip in one day (9a - 7p) which the pilots were under the impression they were flying me and my team on beginning to end. Dispatch called the plane and had them pick up another pax requiring me to wait in the FBO for 2 hours after I was supposed to leave (we were following the itinerary to the letter) with NO warning to me.

Scheduling an X-mas trip to EGE 2 months out, only to be given an 80's shag carpet (I kid you not) 600 which seemed so old it even freaked out our FA. This same plane was given to us on BOTH LEGS (even though the plane returned to its base). So much for equal or better aircraft! Here's the kicker, SkyJet was using a FlexJet 604 on the same route leaving an hour after us for a charter!

"Short notice" always required me to double the minimum time required.

I was even placed with the same charter operator I used to use on several occasions.

Getting a feeling that I was the problem---although I was very understanding.


After 24 months I had it and moved "up" to a G-IV at NetJets
Got the same schtick but insisted that it be written into my contract that "Equal or better" in the event of charter means that the airplane has to have "equal or better" amenities, baggage, range, and (vintage!) They said it wasn't a problem and getting a smaller a/c for just me would be no problem. They kept praising the laurels of Warren Buffet owning them and Tiger Woods owning a share, etc as if I was going to base my decision on someone who would make money off my purchase and another who was probably getting a significant discount for letting his name be used.

Didn't like the G-IV as much. I get the sense one is a Gulfstream person or they aren't. I found the cabin narrower and not as comfortable for long trips, but my family and employees were happy so I was... for a time!

In an outrageous scenario, I got my first chartered a/c despite having a confirmed tail on my 5th flight. It WAS NOT "equal or better" it was a Falcon 50. I was pissed. I wasn't even informed of it before getting to the airport, but I figured that I would call when I got to LAX. On the runway an engine shut down. Something broke and we needed an new plane. I called NetJets and explained my displeasure at the broken charter a/c and was told they would "call me back soon." 30 minutes later I was told that the “best they could do” is to charter me a new plane in two hours, if I wanted to wait they could fly a new one to me in four. If I were in ASE or EGE I could understand the time it would take. But I was in TEB flying to LAX for a meeting followed by a commercial flight to Tokyo that night. I was spending two days in Tokyo then had to come back to the US and go on a roadshow. I couldn’t miss my flight and to the best of my recollection, NetJets doesn't state that they will hold up an ANA 747! They informed me that there "were no aircraft capable of my trip in TEB so I should sit there and wait as they find a plane in a surrounding airport". I said that I was sure something was available in TEB, and explained my situation. They informed me that they searched “high and low” and took an aggressive tone and said “look, if you can find a plane then go ahead as there are none available to get you to LAX even with a fuel stop, but you are only making the problem worse”. After I hung up, I drove over to Jet Aviation and lo and behold they had a G-IV, and a G-III free that could do the trip. I was in the air in 45 minutes (I still held an account with JetAviation). I called "owners support" from the plane, informed them of whose aircraft I was in and that I would be sending them the bill.

Then there was the situation which involved an authorized passenger (my wife) traveling with her mother, our 5 kids, and friends out of SXM. I had to leave vacation early to work, however as my wife was authorized and NetJets was given the passport info for all passengers in advance I was told "not to worry". A 3 hour mess ensued at SXM in which the manifest had my name on it, not my wife's and I was on a plane to Beijing unaware of this situation and unable to tell them "yes, it was me who told you my wife is authorized to fly without me present." They actually removed her from being the lead passenger and from the manifest completely! It should be noted dispatch would not let the pilots leave. They were totally sympathetic letting my family sit in the plane as it burned fuel rather than the unairconditioned terminal and mentioned that they "wished they never called to make sure things were kosher."

When NetJets was having labor issues you should have heard owner services. Apparently EVERYTHING was the fault of the Pilots. Even the fact that my parent’s Kosher catering was replaced with a seafood platter (no joke) was your fault. In all honesty, I was upset there was no strike! I paid a good sum for my share in a G-IV. I could care less what the maintenance fees and hourly’s are. They are nothing compared to the acquisition cost and depreciation the plane will endure. Concessions would not have led to me paying so much more would have had to sell my share right there.

Alas, with the Owner's Services being a real joke and feeling as if I were one step away from being bounced to some call center in India I threw in the towel. Sold the damn share. Now I charter at a reputable charter operator that I have used for years at negotiated rates and I get what I want without any aggravation or anxiety.

Let me say that I found the flight attendants with both operators to be kind to my family and I, and always helpful. On a 10 hour trip, I am sure that their jobs must suck and be worse than being a waitress at a Denny’s. I know some people like elaborate meals, we just care for cold cuts, diet coke, and a box of Dunkin Donuts. I can imagine that with the meals I know some passengers get, the FA’s job must be rough. The pilots on both operators were also the best. I know there are some pain in the ass owners out there (I know a few myself) but by and large we all appreciate you guys. Why you don't get paid more is always perplexing to me. I am not flying Delta. I am flying a Fracjet operator. I am paying for service. More importantly than hiring incompetent phone operators or sleazy salesmen, I care that the people charged with the safety of flying my family aren't overworked, underpaid, tired, abused, and are happy! I don’t want the pilot worrying about his car payments, mortgage, and trying to find a time to nap as we are on final approach. I think you all should be paid more than anyone at the majors. It's a lot more work. I’ve seen you guys clean toilets, pick up after previous pax, and somehow find time to fly the plane. There’s more passenger interaction; these are passengers who will let your boss know the second they feel they have been slighted. ALWAYS I have called to tell the operator if I had a good crew or experience. After buying the jet, the only person I will actually interact with is the Pilot and FA (if there is one). They are the people I care are happy as they are the face of the company. You should really make this clear with your superiors. I think people are crazy if they wake up today and want to be a pilot. It's a stressful job made worse by unrealistic demands and mismanagement. Thumbs up to all of you for entering this formerly fun field, and I think you deserve what you can get. If management tells you that an owner of a share in a BBJ actually cares about a 1500k increase in monthly costs or a 15% rise in hourly costs, they are dead wrong. They are the wrong type of passenger for you and the wrong kind of client for the operator. They are the ones who will complain about EVERYTHING To this day, I have no idea what those fees were and I don't believe I ever asked...

They need you a hell of a lot more than you need them. What, are the call center folks going to fly the jet?

 

[Corona]

I think people are crazy if they wake up today and want to be a pilot. It's a stressful job made worse by unrealistic demands and mismanagement. Thumbs up to all of you for entering this formerly fun field, and I think you deserve what you can get.

Great post, magoo112. It's interesting that as someone successful enough to buy an NJ or Flex share realizes how important it is to have the right people in the job, and that they be fit for duty at all times while at work. It has always amazed me that nearly all managers in this field don't realize that.

If management tells you that an owner of a share in a BBJ actually cares about a 1500k increase in monthly costs or a 15% rise in hourly costs, they are dead wrong. They are the wrong type of passenger for you and the wrong kind of client for the operator. They are the ones who will complain about EVERYTHING To this day, I have no idea what those fees were and I don't believe I ever asked...

Yes, yes, yes!!! Again, I have been amazed in the corporate world at how charter, fractional and management companies go overboard for the worst customers; yet ignore their high-quality bread-and-butter, low-maintenance customers. Then again, I suppose those with sucker-shaped mouths always drift towards the slime on the bottom...

They need you a hell of a lot more than you need them. What, are the call center folks going to fly the jet?

That about says it all. Cheers!

C

 

[netjetwife]

Excellent post, Mr. Magoo! Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights. I'm sorry that fractional ownership didn't work out for you. I know pilots that share your frustration with Owner Services, and I share your opinion that the harder working frac pilots should be paid more than those in the majors.

Best of luck to you and your family.
Netjetwife

 

[pamed19]

Same experience that I am having at FLOPS.We have been forced to litigate.Great crews,however.PM me if you want particulars

 

[On Your Six]

One of the better posts I have read in a long, long time. Just shows how investing in the right people and providing effective, timely communication to your customers is so critical these days. Owners will leave if they are not happy (although you can't please everyone all of the time - nobody should have those super-high expectations).

Cutting corners on employee hiring and compensation in a high-touch service business like this never leads to a good outcome - Flight Options will see more owners departing soon if things don't change.

 

[TORCH67]

There was never labor problems with the G-crews as far as I know! Why would Owner services blame it on pilots when the fair haired chosen ones have been loyal to RTS?

 

[gunfyter]

Excellent post Magoo112.


I would not lay it all on the Sales and Owner reps people. I would go higher. People are given tasks or jobs and not the support or authority required.

Systemic flaws in the design of the operation require someone with the proper level of management authority to Identify and Fix.

OR they need to Delegate that authority ... which means you must PAY more for the quality of individual with the education experience and talent to make Executive decisions.

 

[NotFurloughed]

Thank you.

Thanks so much for the insightful post. It’s good to hear it from the horse’s mouth – so to speak. Let me tell you that such an experience is more the norm than the exception.

I have been at the table during owner negotiations and heard the old line, “you need to go how far? With how many people? Yes, X aircraft can do that, all day, everyday, with full pax, full fuel, 99% Boeing winds, from ASE at ISA +20. We’ll go ahead and put that in the contract.” Sure you will….

The “comparable aircraft” clause always cracks me up. Especially when it comes to the larger cabin aircraft. You need an aircraft equal to or better than to your Citation Ultra. No problem, they are a dime a dozen and they can always give you a bigger aircraft to appease you. BUT, when you get to the large aircraft classes such as the Falcon 900/200, Challenger and G’s you have a challenge on your hands. So and so’s G450 is unavailable so what do you do? Get them a GIV from Jet Aviation or TAG. Nope, not going to happen unless you are a “special circumstance customer”, after all that’s an expensive aircraft from an expensive company and we can’t get a break n the price. So the company calls the charter broker/company who they have a deal with to find a large cabin aircraft. They have nothing nearby that size. So what does the owner hear on the phone? “We’ve tried everyone in the area and the best we can do is a (insert inferior aircraft here).” You know why? Because that’s the best price they can get on an aircraft for the least amount of effort. Period. What do most owners do? They complain and eventually take the plane and go on their merry way. Very few owners take it upon themselves to verify that there are indeed no aircraft available in the area. Why should they? After all, aren’t they paying a premium to a fractional company to be the aviation experts?

If you are a lucky customer, you may only have this happen to you a few times a year. But it’s going to happen.

Pretty soon the company has made so many promises that they can’t keep that the people in scheduling, customer support, etc. get a barrage of (rightfully) upset customers on the other end of the phone. AND, due to the fact that there are so many people involved in one particular flight (dispatch, customer support, wx planning, reservation, FBO personnel and on and on) that it’s easy to just blame the pilots. The pilots forgot the catering, the pilots didn’t check on transportation, etc.

In my experience in the fracs it’s interesting that it’s never anybody’s fault when something goes wrong. Very rarely do you get someone on the phone to say “hey, I dropped the ball and I am very sorry….” Usually you get the runaround. It’s like trying to get a hold of a real person at your credit card company. The only people you see face-to-face that can help you are the pilots, so they usually get the brunt of the cleanup work.

The best-case scenario is that some concession is made for the owner as more of a temporary bandaid. Worst case, as was already mentioned, is things come down to litigation – and that gets ugly fast.

The fractional world looks great on paper. It’s an easy sell, usually, but a nightmare to manage. Remember, profits in fractional come from sales. Period. In order to make money a fractional operator has to continue to sell, sell, sell. There is no margin in management fees, no matter what the surcharges are. Operations sucks the cash flow out of an operator at an alarming rate. Anyone who says different has their information wrong, or worked as an accountant for Enron.

The higher-ups at these companies know the financials, and if sales are made, things will keep rolling. Current customers are lame-ducks as far as profit. The money has been made, and the contract signed. Next please. This is a sad fact of a capitalistic society. Add to that the always profitable aviation industry (smile) and you have a cut-throat business. The biggest incentive that the upper-level management has to insure day-to-day operations run smoothly is to minimize losses. This leads to a trend. As sales begin to dip, more attention is paid to the operations side. As sales pick up, less attention is given. If it aint broke don’t fix it.

During Netjets negotiations the crews threw a wrench into that theory when they started to increase the daily operating costs. Although sales were still strong, operations became more expensive for a number of reasons that have already been discussed on this board. In this specific instance Netjets size was its biggest downfall. The company had to step in the form of a decent contract, that got operations back to its normal costs – and on we go. A contract that, in reality, cost the company MUCH LESS than a continued slow down would have.

The crews, and employees in general, are underpaid – plain and simple. This is NOT the airline business. Companies aren’t selling tickets. They are selling aircraft – damn expensive aircraft – and premium services to some of the wealthiest people in the country. Pilots aren’t flying from LGA to HOU twice a day for 15 days a month. They don’t get to close the door and not interact with the people in the back. They do much, much more than fly the airplane. And as already stated are the only ones that the customer really sees after the contract is signed.

They should be kept happy…and I think more companies are going to find that out the hard way….

 

[magoo112]

There was never labor problems with the G-crews as far as I know! Why would Owner services blame it on pilots when the fair haired chosen ones have been loyal to RTS?

Why blame it on the pilots? Because they can. Blaming the problem on the guy standing in front of me is a hell of a lot easier than saying “Yolanda in Owner Services” screwed up big time.

 

[magoo112]

The “comparable aircraft” clause always cracks me up. Especially when it comes to the larger cabin aircraft. You need an aircraft equal to or better than to your Citation Ultra. No problem, they are a dime a dozen and they can always give you a bigger aircraft to appease you. BUT, when you get to the large aircraft classes such as the Falcon 900/200, Challenger and G’s you have a challenge on your hands. So and so’s G450 is unavailable so what do you do? Get them a GIV from Jet Aviation or TAG. Nope, not going to happen unless you are a “special circumstance customer”, ...QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more. The issue of Charter subs is misrepresented.
Time and again both operators created disasters. On charter substitutes in December (a common occurance) I booked two months out and said “I need a plane with room for 4 pairs of skis and luggage as I am going to EGE." When I found out I was getting a charter substitute I asked them to verify the luggage capacity would be OK. Guess what, it wasn't. What did we have to do? Put them in the aisle. The FA on that flight found this rather amusing, but I did not.
It is as if I went to Hertz and rented a Ford Expedition. I needed a lot of room. Instead of an expedition to carry our bags and seat 8, I for an Explorer which seats 5 and carried bags for less. Now, if I won’t take that s*** from Hertz, why would I take it from a company managing my share in a plane?

The crews, and employees in general, are underpaid – plain and simple. This is NOT the airline business. Companies aren’t selling tickets. They are selling aircraft – dang expensive aircraft – and premium services to some of the wealthiest people in the country. Pilots aren’t flying from LGA to HOU twice a day for 15 days a month. They don’t get to close the door and not interact with the people in the back. They do much, much more than fly the airplane. And as already stated are the only ones that the customer really sees after the contract is signed.

They should be kept happy…and I think more companies are going to find that out the hard way….

Pay your people what they deserve! You are spot on, with Fracs (especially large cabin) flying some of the wealthiest people in the world, many of their housekeepers make more than their Frac pilots. I do know that when I was with the Fracs, my driver was making more than the pilots I met. He only has to worry about driving a car, NOT a 35 million dollar aircraft. All it will take is one crash in a FracJet program carrying a billionaire and his family being flown by an overworked, underpaid crew to cause the industry to fold in on itself. It is their WORST NIGHTMARE. No matter how much management gets paid, they will never be able to solve that problem.

My business partner owns a G-V. He used to be in NJ but needed a full plane (downgraded to a NJ Hawker when it is just him). I use the plane occasionally and compensate the fuel and fbo costs. I have talked with him and have a general idea of what the whole setup costs. He will be the first to acknowledge the disadvantages of owning the plane outright, but he said to me “I can pay them what I want, and it is a hell of a lot more than what the fractionals pay. Why would I risk the life of my grandchildren in 50 million dollar plane when the guy flying it is paid .2% the cost of the plane annually. If I need more pilots I’ll hire more pilots. Last thing I want them to be both exhausted and to worry about a mortgage payment in bad weather.”

To drive the point home further, the Captains of those 60m yachts worth 50+ million new easily are paid 250K annually at the low end—and he has a crew of 12 assisting him. Now, if the risk of death in a plane is so much greater with pilots being stressed to the max, why not give them a fair shake?