Mesaba ?!?

[007]

With the impact the judges decision had on all of us and the prescedence it sets, I am really subprised nobody has talked about it in the Majors thread.

Are you guys really that disconnected?

I hope not, but I doubt NWA will get involved in any of the sympathy strikes!

Discuss.


P.S. Yea, yea , I know, go back to the regionals board, yadayada

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

The Mesaba pilots have proven to be some real tough guys.

They have expressed outrage, then took a huge pay cut.

Boy, management had better watch out! Don't want to do anything to upset the pilots again, or the pilots might express outrage again!

What's the score about now? Management 16, Airline employees 0.

"Happy days are here again."

 

[mnboyev]

Sad day for labor... sad indeed. Mainline will always get what they need, period.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tomorrow in MSP, DTW and MEM Mesaba pilots will demonstrate against the judges ruling that they cannot strike. As a non Mesaba pilot, I will invest two hours of my day for my career. I'll support Mesaba cause when I need support I want my fellow pilot there for me....

We get to carry each other....

 

[JP4user]

The handwriting was on the wall with the NWA fa's. ALPA's response is too little and way to late.

I am going to try and get to DTW and picket myself.

 

[LivinDaDream]

I'd like to walk in MSP tomorrow.

Any of the MSA MEC/SPC guys know if hats are mandatory or are you taking us as we are??

Please post times and dates as many places as possible. Even Here Scott.

 

[Jester119]

I hope this helps everyone looking to picket this was in a email give out to many NWA people.

"The Mesaba Labor Coalition is conducting informational picketing in
Detroit and Memphis, and a major rally and informational picketing in
Minneapolis on Thursday, October 26. It's really important that we participate
in these events, this is not Mesaba's fight but our fight too.

The Mesaba bankruptcy court decision is one that will reverberate throughout the
industry. Now, more than ever, tenacious organizing and strong pilot action is
needed to defend our profession and send a strong message to all airline
management's that we are united.

In MSP, we will meet at 10:30am outside of the ALPA office at 7900 International
Drive, Bloomington, MN by the buses. We will take the buses downtown and picket
by the courthouse. If you would like to go downtown directly, please meet at the
Crown Plaza Minneapolis Downtown Hotel at 11:00am. The hotel is located at 618
Second Avenue South. The buses will return around 1:30pm.

In DTW, we will meet at the strike center in the Hilton Suites Detroit Metro
Airport hotel at 4:30pm. We will take a bus to the airport to picket until
6:30pm.

In MEM, we will meet at the strike center in the Holiday Inn Select Memphis
Airport at 11:45am and will picket until 2pm at the airport.

For all three locations, please arrive in full uniform, including hat and dress
for the weather."

 

[Jester119]

All ALPA pilots are urged to attend one of three picketing events on Thursday in support of the embattled Mesaba pilots struggling against bankruptcy abuse.
The Bankruptcy Court ruled late Monday night that Mesaba’s unions are not permitted to strike, and Mesaba management has announced that it will impose its latest contract proposal on Thursday, October 26. This decision is unprecedented, and ALPA intends to vigorously appeal.
To demonstrate their commitment to defending their contract while staring down the threat of a contract rejection and strike injunction, Mesaba pilots will conduct informational picketing in all three pilot domiciles on Thursday, October 26.
All ALPA members are invited and encouraged to attend these events. The Mesaba bankruptcy court decision is one that will reverberate throughout the industry unless it is reversed. Now, more than ever, strong pilot action is needed to defend the profession and send a strong message to every airline management that pilots are united in their efforts to achieve the contracts they deserve.
We must make it clear that the unprecedented circumstances facing our pilot group have not dampened our resolve. Our unity is our strength.
The picketing will take place at the following locations:
MSP: 10:30 a.m. — Meet at the ALPA offices (7900 International Drive, Bloomington MN). The buses will transport participants downtown to attend a rally and picket by the courthouse. If you would like to go downtown directly, please meet at the Crowne Plaza Minneapolis Downtown Hotel (618 Second Avenue South) at 11:00 a.m. The buses will return to the ALPA offices around 1:30 p.m.
DTW: 4:30 p.m. — Meet at the Hilton Suites Detroit Metro Airport hotel. Buses will take participants to the airport to picket until 6:30 p.m.
MEM: 11:45 a.m. — Meet at the Holiday Inn Select Memphis Airport. Picketing will take place until 2:00 p.m. at the airport.
For all three locations, please arrive in full uniform, including hat, and remember to dress for the weather.
For any question, please call the strike center:
DTW Strike Center 1-866-921-7833
MEM Strike Center 1-866-922-7833
MSP Strike Center 1-866-920-7833

 

[XJohXJ]

The MEC has expressed the wish that pilots wear their uniform hats. I don't like the hat at all, but I've got it handy, so I'll wear it. As someone not on the MEC, or any LEC, just a very low seniority guy, I'd say: Please, come as you are. Please don't let not having your hat keep you away. Just come. We need the support.

 

[LivinDaDream]

I'll be there. Fedex and Champion guys don't have hats (usually), but we support you.

Also, an MEC member called me and told me to come without my hat.

 

[Occam's Razor]

With the impact the judges decision had on all of us and the prescedence it sets, I am really subprised nobody has talked about it in the Majors thread.

It was discussed in the context of the NWA pilot's T.A., that led to the current contract. The discussion centered on the veracity of the argument being made by the "con" side (those intending to vote "no" on the deal) that their claim of "We can strike and bring them to their knees!" was incorrect.

As we now know, the claim was indeed incorrect.

The legal advisors to the NWA MEC predicted that NWA management would be able to find a federal judge to prevent a strike.

The "no" voters then accused those experts of being defeatist wimps.

Then the NWA F/A's got hammered by a judge.
Then the MSA pilots got hammered by a judge.

The conclusion reached was this: Bankruptcy sucks supreme! Labor's ability to exert traditional leverage in the form of a strike is easily removed while an airline is under Chapter 11 protection.

(Somehow, other "discussions" have reached a supplemental conclusion that Duane Woerth is at fault for that. Those conclusions are just as valid...)

Are you guys really that disconnected?

Yes, we are. The tree fell in a forest, and since you didn't hear it...it didn't make a sound.

I hope not, but I doubt NWA will get involved in any of the sympathy strikes!

Any idea what the MSA MEC has asked the NWA pilots to do?

Put on a uniform and meet me in MSP tomorrow on the picket line. I'll be one of the NWA pilots in the orbit with a star on my ALPA wings. Afterwards, you can bite me.

 

[redflyer65]

Everyone,

The rally's today in all three domicles (MEM-MSP-DTW) are for everyone. We don't care if you can't find your hat or if your wearing a leather jacket. We need everyone. An actual turn out from some Northwest guys would be huge. If we could get some Fedex and Spirit people that would be awesome too. We need to get a big turn out to shine a light on how wrong this is for Mesaba, and in turn for every other pilot group. This is a fraud on our pilots, please show up.

 

[007]

It was discussed in the context of the NWA pilot's T.A., that led to the current contract. The discussion centered on the veracity of the argument being made by the "con" side (those intending to vote "no" on the deal) that their claim of "We can strike and bring them to their knees!" was incorrect.

As we now know, the claim was indeed incorrect.

The legal advisors to the NWA MEC predicted that NWA management would be able to find a federal judge to prevent a strike.

The "no" voters then accused those experts of being defeatist wimps.

Then the NWA F/A's got hammered by a judge.
Then the MSA pilots got hammered by a judge.

The conclusion reached was this: Bankruptcy sucks supreme! Labor's ability to exert traditional leverage in the form of a strike is easily removed while an airline is under Chapter 11 protection.

(Somehow, other "discussions" have reached a supplemental conclusion that Duane Woerth is at fault for that. Those conclusions are just as valid...)

Thanks for clearing that up, I didn't read that thread.

 

[007]

Yes, we are. The tree fell in a forest, and since you didn't hear it...it didn't make a sound.



Any idea what the MSA MEC has asked the NWA pilots to do?

Put on a uniform and meet me in MSP tomorrow on the picket line. I'll be one of the NWA pilots in the orbit with a star on my ALPA wings. Afterwards, you can bite me.

Yes, I have an idea, but I hadn't seen anybody mentioning it!!!!!!
Therefore I wanted to get some discussion going......
Bite you? What? I appreciate your participation... why does everyone on this board always feel personally attacked. I merely wanted to draw some attention to this. What is your blood pressure? Are you gonna make it to 60 or 65 or whatever. Sorry for trying to draw some attention to our career's problems. And since you have a star by your homework I guess I am not as cool as you.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Bite you? What? I appreciate your participation... why does everyone on this board always feel personally attacked. I merely wanted to draw some attention to this.

Really? This is the way you "draw attention"?

Are you guys really that disconnected?

I hope not, but I doubt NWA will get involved in any of the sympathy strikes!

And since you have a star by your homework I guess I am not as cool as you.

1. Of course you're not as cool as me.
2. It's a "battle star" earned by going on strike. It's one thing to talk about walking away from your job for what you believe...and another thing to actually do it.
3. If you truly want to "discuss" MSA and NWA issues here, you might want to leave out the "doconnected" accusations.

 

[Lear70]

It was discussed in the context of the NWA pilot's T.A., that led to the current contract. The discussion centered on the veracity of the argument being made by the "con" side (those intending to vote "no" on the deal) that their claim of "We can strike and bring them to their knees!" was incorrect.

As we now know, the claim was indeed incorrect.

That's not ENTIRELY correct.

Their legal right to strike has been temporarily and ILLEGALLY blocked.

Either they get it overturned by another judge or, once Mesaba exits bankruptcy and IF the pilots are STILL without a contract, there's no bankruptcy judge to enjoin them from striking immediately, now is there?

The legal advisors to the NWA MEC predicted that NWA management would be able to find a federal judge to prevent a strike.

The "no" voters then accused those experts of being defeatist wimps.

The "no" voters had it right, you just had to be willing to follow it through to the end-game. You weren't. Management won.

Then the NWA F/A's got hammered by a judge.

Illegally, according to ALPA.

Then the MSA pilots got hammered by a judge.

Again, illegally, according to ALPA.

The conclusion reached was this: Bankruptcy sucks supreme! Labor's ability to exert traditional leverage in the form of a strike is easily removed while an airline is under Chapter 11 protection.

Correct.

But what about AFTER the company exits Ch. 11 without a contract in place?

(Somehow, other "discussions" have reached a supplemental conclusion that Duane Woerth is at fault for that. Those conclusions are just as valid...)

Not primarily, and not even secondarily, but somewhere, down the food chain, he had a choice and made the wrong one.

Any idea what the MSA MEC has asked the NWA pilots to do?

Put on a uniform and meet me in MSP tomorrow on the picket line. I'll be one of the NWA pilots in the orbit with a star on my ALPA wings. Afterwards, you can bite me.

That's actually pretty funny stuff right there,,,

I do appreciate his more aggressive approach, but also agree that it's "too little, too late". Even if they follow through THIS TIME, wait for MSA to exit Ch. 11, then hammer them with an immediate strike that no one but the U.S. President could prevent, it won't make a large enough impact in the overall aviation industry.

I wish all the MSA pilots the best of luck during these hard times and, if I still wore an ALPA pin, I'd be glad to join you on the picket line... AGAIN!

 

[007]

Really? This is the way you "draw attention"?

Are you guys really that disconnected?

I hope not, but I doubt NWA will get involved in any of the sympathy strikes!

I got your attention didn't I.....but seriously how often do the mainline guys go to bat for the little guys? I can't think of to many occasions.

 

[007]

3. If you truly want to "discuss" MSA and NWA issues here, you might want to leave out the "doconnected" accusations.

Accusation? I guess that's what that questionmark meant. I my book it's just that, a question.

 

[JP4user]

Lear brought up a good point. What happens after exiting bankruptcy under an imposed contract?

 

[brainhurts]

"Afterwards you can bite me". That was enormously funny.

 

[Occam's Razor]

That's not ENTIRELY correct.

Their legal right to strike has been temporarily and ILLEGALLY blocked.

Excuse me, Mr. Chief Justice! I didn't realize you were dropping by for a visit to this Forum!

You missed the point. ALPA's legal advisors predicted that management would be able to find a judge who was willing to "press to test" and set a precedent. They explained that the law is sufficiently vague regarding the definition of "harm" when addressing what actions a judge can take during reorganization.

But I'm sure you had all that dialed-in well before any other those chuckleheads with their schmancy law degrees and so-called years of experience in Labor law weighed-in, huh?

Either they get it overturned by another judge or, once Mesaba exits bankruptcy and IF the pilots are STILL without a contract, there's no bankruptcy judge to enjoin them from striking immediately, now is there?

The ruling will be appealed, Perry Mason, but as you know...that ain't a guarantee. I'd post what the ALPA lawyers and advisors predicted, but I'm sure you've already got it wired.

The "no" voters had it right, you just had to be willing to follow it through to the end-game. You weren't. Management won.

What? "Follow it through"? I'm a little surprised to see a rational professional pilot write that. You're a risk manager. You are supposed to analyze all relevant information and make decisions based on your assessment of risk..and possible outcomes. You are now asserting a conclusion that is in direct contradiction to the predictions made by our experts, that just happened to have been validated by court actions.

What was predicted to happen...happened! Do you understand that? (If not, wanna bet on last year's Super Bowl?) For you to conclude some other outcome in the face of that makes me question yoiur ability to reach rational decisions. I suppose we can chalk it up to this poor medium for communications. Or your DNA.

But what about AFTER the company exits Ch. 11 without a contract in place?

Section VI of the Railway Labor Act. The prediction (by those snooty "experts" again!) is mandatory mediation under the auspices of the NMB. During your expensive study of the RLA, I'm sure you zoned-in on the fact that our contracts don't "expire", even when a new set of Terms & Conditions is imposed by a court. The contract is "amendable". The only open issue is what existing contract must be used as the status quo.

I do appreciate his more aggressive approach, but also agree that it's "too little, too late". Even if they follow through THIS TIME, wait for MSA to exit Ch. 11, then hammer them with an immediate strike that no one but the U.S. President could prevent, it won't make a large enough impact in the overall aviation industry

.

Curse that pesky Railway Labor Act!

The law is on the side of management. The economics are on the side of Labor. The terms of reorganization (equity, ownership, etc) will not be good for the doo doo heads in management if the company lacks firm contracts in place. That gives a little leverage to Labor in this case. How much leverage depends on who needs the deal the least.

I wish all the MSA pilots the best of luck during these hard times and, if I still wore an ALPA pin, I'd be glad to join you on the picket line... AGAIN!

There were about 150 of us out there today. Lots of media attention and a good mix of uniforms (UAL, NWA, PCL, CHA, CAL, etc). All the pilots wore their ALPA pins.

 

[Lear70]

Excuse me, Mr. Chief Justice! I didn't realize you were dropping by for a visit to this Forum!

I never, ever said that I didn't believe the court would grant an injunction. DO NOT put words in my mouth.

What I DID say was that it was illegal. ALPA thinks so along with its attorneys. That's not MY professional opinion, it's every legal expert working for ALPA, the NPA, the APA, etc, etc. Oh, I'm sorry, that doesn't fit your argument, does it? How sad for you...

Incidentally, you have no business giving me a hard time discussing legal ramifications when you have done exactly the same thing. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

You missed the point. ALPA's legal advisors predicted that management would be able to find a judge who was willing to "press to test" and set a precedent. They explained that the law is sufficiently vague regarding the definition of "harm" when addressing what actions a judge can take during reorganization.

I never said they didn't. I simply said that after the company exits, we'll see the rest of the story if the MSA pilots stand strong and don't sign to the concessions.

But I'm sure you had all that dialed-in well before any other those chuckleheads with their schmancy law degrees and so-called years of experience in Labor law weighed-in, huh?

Just as you did, huh?

The ruling will be appealed, Perry Mason, but as you know...that ain't a guarantee. I'd post what the ALPA lawyers and advisors predicted, but I'm sure you've already got it wired.

You don't have to, DW did it for you. But feel free to QUOTE DIRECTLY from the ALPA attorneys. Please cite source.

What? "Follow it through"? I'm a little surprised to see a rational professional pilot write that. You're a risk manager. You are supposed to analyze all relevant information and make decisions based on your assessment of risk..and possible outcomes. You are now asserting a conclusion that is in direct contradiction to the predictions made by our experts, that just happened to have been validated by court actions.

Again, you're taking my comments out of context. I never said the courts wouldn't prevent them from striking, I simply said it was ILLEGAL, a FACT which ALPA attorneys along with the current (outgoing) president have said. Or are you calling him a liar also?

What was predicted to happen...happened! Do you understand that? (If not, wanna bet on last year's Super Bowl?) For you to conclude some other outcome in the face of that makes me question yoiur ability to reach rational decisions. I suppose we can chalk it up to this poor medium for communications. Or your DNA.

Again, I never said it didn't. Where are your reading comprehension skills? HELLO??? ANYONE HOME???

Do you also get that once the company exits all bets are off? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

Section VI of the Railway Labor Act. The prediction (by those snooty "experts" again!) is mandatory mediation under the auspices of the NMB. During your expensive study of the RLA, I'm sure you zoned-in on the fact that our contracts don't "expire", even when a new set of Terms & Conditions is imposed by a court. The contract is "amendable". The only open issue is what existing contract must be used as the status quo.

You are incorrect. There IS NO CONTRACT. That isn't a belief, it's backed by the repeate statements made by ALPA officials.

The judge did NOT impose a "CONTRACT". What about that do you NOT understand. To be more specific, the judge allowed MSA to IMPOSE WORK CONDITIONS including, but not limited to, complete disposal of the current working agreement.

Per ALPA attorneys, DW, and everyone else fighting this, the pilots are now working without a contract. It's not "amendable", where the fu*k did you pull that out of, anyway?

I'm quite certain that, once the company exits, the pilots will attempt to immediately strike. Again, the ONLY person who can step in at this point, according to those pesky ALPA attorneys (experts) that you don't want to acknowledge is the President. He can force mediation in the exact method you describe, but that's the ONLY person who can, according to the RLA.

If you can cite the SPECIFIC ALPA attorney who has published the statements you are making, by all means, slap 'em on here. Otherwise,,, well, you know where you can take your non-backed beliefs.

There were about 150 of us out there today. Lots of media attention and a good mix of uniforms (UAL, NWA, PCL, CHA, CAL, etc). All the pilots wore their ALPA pins.

Good deal, I'm glad you had a good turnout. I'm also glad you all wore your ALPA pins, although this goes FAR beyond just ALPA, so take your elitist inuendo elsewhere...

Personally I'm glad I'm not a part of ALPA any longer, hasn't done a D*MN thing for my career, but I hope they do better by MSA than they have with all the other airlines that have gotten screwed in the last decade.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Your pharamcist owes you an apology.

 

[Lear70]

Your pharamcist owes you an apology.

Oooohhhh, THAT was witty.

Now, do you have any factual ALPA attorney statements to support your claim and refute the fact that DW just called for a sympathy strike of unknown scope as soon as they obtain relief from the bankruptcy judge's illegal ruling?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Witty? Yes.

Amazing, given the fact that you obviously skimmed over my comments.

Good thing.

Leave the analysis to those with the gifts to process facts correctly.

Do some re-reading in your spare time. Pay closer attention to my use of the term "Terms & Conditions" instead of "contract". Then edit your post.

Also, drop the "illegal" already! It's a layman's term for an action that violates a law. A judges action when interpreting a law is never illegal. It can certainly be reviewed and overturned, but it ain't illegal. The use of the term by ALPA is two-fold: It keeps it simple for those who didn't take Latin in school, and it confuses morons who think they know everything about everything.

(Call when you guys hold your next Group Two reunion!)

 

[Lear70]

Yes, you once again avoid debating the FACTS.

And oh yes, I "skimmed" over your comments addressing nearly all of them.

Why don't you go try your obviously ego-inflated rhetoric elsewhere, since you obviously have nothing further to add to the discussion.

...NEXT!...

 

[LivinDaDream]

TO ALL:

Occam's Razor is quite a clown, but he is also one of the most informed posters on this site and is more active in Union issues than most. (I know who you are) Nobody has to agree with him, but he deserves some level of respect. He puts his money, or more importantly, his time where his mouth is.

You have to take his sense of humor with a grain of salt and sometimes thick skin, but he is often the only one to lighten the moment when the crap hits the fan (picket lines, rallies, MEC meetings, BOD etc...).

Again, debate is good, but it is probably a good idea to listen to those that have been there....done that.

Just some thoughts....

P.S. I was walking in MSP yesterday and didn't see anybody bite you!!

 

[xjhawk]

here is a thought. They, the sleezy corporations can impose pay and work rules cuts on us, why cannot we impose raises and work rule increases on them when they show profit? Like take them to something like a reversed bankruptcy court, like they did to us, and impose pay raises on the company? The system should work both ways, or it should not work at all. The new video message put out by D Weorth, said a lot. But will ALPA do a lot? Will NWA give us a sympathy strike? Will they offer us their support when ALPA calls for it? Did DW call for us XJ pilots to just quit? I will wait it out and see if the courts actually are fair and not corrupt, i will leave once we lose the appeals.....but if i quit, will i get unemployment? i think not, then alpa should give us some comensation if we are to quit....at their hints.....since they cannot legally suggest a job action.

 

[xjhawk]

oh, one more thing, about Compass? whats the deal, do they have anything other than a few senior leadership core? How is this company going to spool up? where are their offices? where is their training dept? where are their pilots.....are they NWA pilots.....it seems to me that they do not want to work there for those rates....which by the way, is better then at XJ which i am making now.......how is that going to be more profitable for NWA?

 

[Occam's Razor]

here is a thought. They, the sleezy corporations can impose pay and work rules cuts on us, why cannot we impose raises and work rule increases on them when they show profit?

It's been done, but not exactly in the manner you suggest. There have been plenty of ALPA contracts that included automatic pay increases when profits returned. The NWA concession deal in 1993 included a "snap-up" in 1996 if NWA made money. The CEO at the time (Dasburg) then challenged the language (the terms "average" and "increases") and we went to arbitration. The award from the arbitrator was three sentences: They get the money. The CEO is a lawyer and shoulda known better than to challenge common terms. The pilots would have received pecuniary damages if they had been mentioned in the language.

Other contracts have done something similar as a protective measure. Indexing was done at USAirways and Alaska.

When the cycle starts back up...and it will...you can purchase indexing language if you're willing to pay the price in negotiating capital. Typically, though, the rank-and-file will be screaming for short-term returns to compensate for the concessionary pounding they got in the last deal.

The system should work both ways, or it should not work at all. The new video message put out by D Weorth, said a lot.

Agree. Unfortunately, we went to flight school instead of B School...so we ended up in the cockpit and not in the head shed. We traded having to smooch butts to "upgrade" for not being allowed to make corporate decisions. It's maddening to watch the serial buffoonery these jokers pull without being able to "fire" them...but we opted to be Labor, not Management.

But will ALPA do a lot? Will NWA give us a sympathy strike? Will they offer us their support when ALPA calls for it?

Like what?
I doubt it.
Yes!!!

ALPA is your resource. You've received MCF funds to run Family Awareness, an SPC, and a Communications effort. Herndon has sent lawyers, CPA's, and Communicators to MSA to help. But the "heavy lifting" will be done by MSA pilots...just as it was done by Comair pilots in 2001, and NWA pilots in 1998.

I think a sympathy strike is beyond the scope of the Father Brown Award, and therefore uncharted waters. (Of course, if I knew for certain I dang sure wouldn't post it here!)

What WILL happen, as the NWA MEC has made clear, is that NWA pilots will honor the "struck work" resolution passed by the MSA MEC. That is a guarantee.

Did DW call for us XJ pilots to just quit?

I don't think so. Did you read that somewhere?

I will wait it out and see if the courts actually are fair and not corrupt, i will leave once we lose the appeals.....but if i quit, will i get unemployment?

Depends on which state you live in. I don't think so.

i think not, then alpa should give us some comensation if we are to quit....at their hints.....since they cannot legally suggest a job action.

I don't think that's the way it works, but I understand your position.

Hopefully, the appeals process will reverse the judge's ruling. I don't think NWA and/or PCL are staffed right now to absorb a strike.