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Jetblue headed to ORD?

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G4G5 said:
I think that this is a bad bad bad idea. There has to be a better place to tie up an A320 then on the ground in ORD. I can remember spending more time on penalty box waiting for departure then it took to fly the trip. If they are seriously considering this then they are really starving for new routes to put their A320's on.

I would have to believe that an Island, vacation destination out of JFK would have better yeilds then spending all your profits on deicing fluid in the winter.
Click to expand...

Have you ever been on a JB flight that departs JFK around 6-8pm? It's at least a 45-50 minute taxi. Add to that, the transcons are fuel and load limited. At least out of ORD, even with the long taxi times, JB won't have to worry about west coast tech-stops for fuel. ORD-JFK is also a suitable route for international connections. Maybe JB has some international code shares to announce soon. It's been talked about by management before.
 
MRYFLYER said:
I think the real priceless event will be UA dashing the dreams of an ex flyi pilot. We were able to take the wind out of the sails of all that crap that spewed from your group previously and to get a chance to treat you like a redheaded step child once again is truly a treat.

Here is a question for you. What happens to the B6 pax when on the rare occasion (tic) that JFK and or ORD are involved in flow programs. UA and AA are able to shuffle slots and get the business flight to and fro. B6 will not have that luxury and without interlining it will also be priceless to see the looks on the pax face when they find out you guys can not rebook them on a real airline. Oh boy would I pay to see that!

I don't too many UA airplanes will make C or T with a B6 plane behind them so plan accordingly.

Glad to see you enjoyed your whipping by UA when you were at flyi. It will be our pleasure to issue you another.
Click to expand...

...and then there was TED. That airline within an airline strategy really works! Ask Delta and SONG. You really don't have that much to stand on coming from a BANKRUPT airline. Don't worry about JB customers. Unlike your airline, JB takes care of its customers no matter what the situation. Maybe that's why they win awards and you don't.

If you can't make C or T, so be it. JB always lands long too because they don't use reverse hehe.
 
Spectre said:
...and then there was TED. That airline within an airline strategy really works! Ask Delta and SONG. You really don't have that much to stand on coming from a BANKRUPT airline.

If you can't make C or T, so be it. JB always lands long too because they don't use reverse hehe.
Click to expand...

Well TED has improved the bottom line but that is not what you want to hear now is it. TED has been successful in what it was set out to do and has grown within UAL. We get paid the same no matter what color the plane is painted. The only difference is the TED people are a bit like the B6 crowd.......well you know not that polished and more along the lines of maw and pa kettle.

One thing about TED is that pax are protected. At B6 they might as well be hitchhiking when the flow starts at ORD.

"Don't use reverse" What on earth are you talking about? I would encourage you to not use reverse on 22R at ORD. Also make sure your ALPA Loss of License insurance is paid, oh that is right you don't have that option.
 
MRYFLYER,
When you say your passengers out of ORD are protected, what are you talking about? I can't tell you how many times I've seen United passengers in ORD or IAD be stuck there after their flight cancelled and all the others were overbooked. Guess what, they were SCREWED. No, hotel, no rebooking on another airline, nothing. The first time I saw it, I was shocked that customers actually got treated that way. I know that it's hard to deal with thousands of stranded passengers but it seems like United doesn't even try. JB's pax might be screwed when the weather goes to ******************** in ORD but it's really hard to imagine that they will be worse off than United's.
 
MRYFLYER said:
I think the real priceless event will be UA dashing the dreams of an ex flyi pilot. We were able to take the wind out of the sails of all that crap that spewed from your group previously and to get a chance to treat you like a redheaded step child once again is truly a treat.....
Click to expand...

Your ignorance is alarming. You protest the idea of a LCC getting 10 slots into ORD? If all 10 slots are granted, you may occasionaly see ONE JB aircraft in ORD- if your timing is just right. Are you really that scared of an occasional JB airplane?

Do you happen to have a clue where these slots even came from? They used to belong to another airline that flew around in "united" paint, before you got mad at them. Perhaps you are forgetting which airline has singlehandedly turned hundreds of slots at ORD over to the bottom feeding regionals which are the real threat to what this job once was.

Those regionals - flying "united" airplanes and carrying "united" passengers are manned by pilots who for the most part despise "united". They fly passengers that used to be flown by "united" pilots, who ended up on the streets when their brothers decided to give away even more of their own "united" flying because times were hard.

You can be at ORD any time of day right now and see DOZENS of these mini "united" airplanes. You may not think they are really "united", but the passengers do - and they are the ones paying your (and your lesser paid counterparts) salaries.

Good thing you are really in touch with the threat to your job. Did that keen intellect develope over your whole eight years in the business? Or was that when you were a military man defending the country. In either case....your threat recognition needs some serious work.
 
thruthemurk said:
Your ignorance is alarming. You protest the idea of a LCC getting 10 slots into ORD? If all 10 slots are granted, you may occasionaly see ONE JB aircraft in ORD- if your timing is just right. Are you really that scared of an occasional JB airplane?

Do you happen to have a clue where these slots even came from? They used to belong to another airline that flew around in "united" paint, before you got mad at them. Perhaps you are forgetting which airline has singlehandedly turned hundreds of slots at ORD over to the bottom feeding regionals which are the real threat to what this job once was.

Those regionals - flying "united" airplanes and carrying "united" passengers are manned by pilots who for the most part despise "united". They fly passengers that used to be flown by "united" pilots, who ended up on the streets when their brothers decided to give away even more of their own "united" flying because times were hard.

You can be at ORD any time of day right now and see DOZENS of these mini "united" airplanes. You may not think they are really "united", but the passengers do - and they are the ones paying your (and your lesser paid counterparts) salaries.

Good thing you are really in touch with the threat to your job. Did that keen intellect develope over your whole eight years in the business? Or was that when you were a military man defending the country. In either case....your threat recognition needs some serious work.
Click to expand...


Ahhhh ha ha...that would be slapped 3 times in one night.
 
thruthemurk said:
Your ignorance is alarming. You protest the idea of a LCC getting 10 slots into ORD? If all 10 slots are granted, you may occasionaly see ONE JB aircraft in ORD- if your timing is just right. Are you really that scared of an occasional JB airplane?

Do you happen to have a clue where these slots even came from? They used to belong to another airline that flew around in "united" paint, before you got mad at them. Perhaps you are forgetting which airline has singlehandedly turned hundreds of slots at ORD over to the bottom feeding regionals which are the real threat to what this job once was.

Those regionals - flying "united" airplanes and carrying "united" passengers are manned by pilots who for the most part despise "united". They fly passengers that used to be flown by "united" pilots, who ended up on the streets when their brothers decided to give away even more of their own "united" flying because times were hard.

You can be at ORD any time of day right now and see DOZENS of these mini "united" airplanes. You may not think they are really "united", but the passengers do - and they are the ones paying your (and your lesser paid counterparts) salaries.

Good thing you are really in touch with the threat to your job. Did that keen intellect develope over your whole eight years in the business? Or was that when you were a military man defending the country. In either case....your threat recognition needs some serious work.
Click to expand...

That would be me with the eight years gramps and defending your/our country, Mrfly if you cared to look at his profile is civily trained.

Your rant has some nuggets of truth of which I agree with . But tell me why as you put did the "majority" of our feeder pilot's "hate" UAL?

I have issues with our management But I don't "hate" UAL, I despise our management but I try to leave the hard working folks trudging the line day in day out, out of the "hate" speak. But since you seem to have a pulse on how the majority of our feeder's feel about us, why don't you educate us on why they "hate" us?
 
koko nw said:
That would be me with the eight years gramps and defending your/our country, Mrfly if you cared to look at his profile is civily trained.

Your rant has some nuggets of truth of which I agree with . But tell me why as you put did the "majority" of our feeder pilot's "hate" UAL?

I have issues with our management But I don't "hate" UAL, I despise our management but I try to leave the hard working folks trudging the line day in day out, out of the "hate" speak. But since you seem to have a pulse on how the majority of our feeder's feel about us, why don't you educate us on why they "hate" us?
Click to expand...


Thanks for the clarification regarding the former military service. I'll be glad to thank you for your service to the country - I assume you'll do the same for me. In the case of accuracy, I never said anything about hate-interesting you read it that way.

I said "Those regionals - flying "united" airplanes and carrying "united" passengers are manned by pilots who for the most part despise "united". "

That opinion is based on observation and discussion with many current and former United Express pilots over the last 17 years. You are welcome to disagree with it. Don't take it personally, it is a common theme among feeder pilots towards their legacy companies. There is often a similar sentiment amongst legacy pilots regarding the regional companies who fly for their banner. Not really hard to understand as both sides can envision threats to their opportunity and even job security by the other.
 
MRYFLYER said:
Well TED has improved the bottom line but that is not what you want to hear now is it. TED has been successful in what it was set out to do and has grown within UAL. We get paid the same no matter what color the plane is painted. The only difference is the TED people are a bit like the B6 crowd.......well you know not that polished and more along the lines of maw and pa kettle.

One thing about TED is that pax are protected. At B6 they might as well be hitchhiking when the flow starts at ORD.

"Don't use reverse" What on earth are you talking about? I would encourage you to not use reverse on 22R at ORD. Also make sure your ALPA Loss of License insurance is paid, oh that is right you don't have that option.
Click to expand...

Reverse is only used as necessary. Believe me, we use reverse at Burbank.

Are your passengers at TED protected from being bumped off a flight due to overbooking? At JB, they don't overbook.

With a 99.9% completion rate, JB customers don't have to worry too much about hitch-hiking. Anyway, we already operate out of LGA, JFK, BOS, and EWR. So, ORD can't be much worse as far as delays are concerned.

What's the big deal anyway? I don't think you have to worry about 8 daily flights into ORD from JB. Hope you have a long and happy life at UAL brother. We're all in this airline business together.

Heck, I'd say about 50% of the JB pilots are former legacy pilots on furlough. I don't wish anything bad to happen to you since I've already been there. A good measure these days is how many JB pilots are going back when recalled. A very, very small percentage. Maybe 1%. Hopefully all of them senior to me.

Oh, and don't even go there with ALPA please. We now have loss of license insurance at JB too. We just have to pay for it. Oh, you do too. It's called union dues.
 
thruthemurk said:
Thanks for the clarification regarding the former military service. I'll be glad to thank you for your service to the country - I assume you'll do the same for me. In the case of accuracy, I never said anything about hate-interesting you read it that way.

You wrote "despise" I took that as a metaphor for hate, on further review maybe "hate" is too strong while you have to admit "despise" is not that far behind in meaning.

I said "Those regionals - flying "united" airplanes and carrying "united" passengers are manned by pilots who for the most part despise "united". "

That opinion is based on observation and discussion with many current and former United Express pilots over the last 17 years. You are welcome to disagree with it. Don't take it personally, it is a common theme among feeder pilots towards their legacy companies. There is often a similar sentiment amongst legacy pilots regarding the regional companies who fly for their banner. Not really hard to understand as both sides can envision threats to their opportunity and even job security by the other.
Click to expand...

I don't take it personally I would just like to understand it.
My question is how they can despise an entity which is providing them jobs and future growth more times then not at the expense of the mainline pilots?
Shouldn't the despising be coming from our end more so then theirs?

Intersting enough fully half of the captains I've flown with are from the regionals...Do you lose your bitterness once you've made it to the "show"? Or is it despising what you don't understand?
I'm asking because I don't know, not trying to be sarcastic.
Anyway's thanks for your reasoned response, have a good night err morning, god this board get's addictive.
 
thruthemurk said:
I said "Those regionals - flying "united" airplanes and carrying "united" passengers are manned by pilots who for the most part despise "united". "

That opinion is based on observation and discussion with many current and former United Express pilots over the last 17 years.
Click to expand...

I would encourage all you guys that despise your bread and butter mother airline to have your management take your RJ's and form a LCC. Start competing against your major partner at its hub, create a real kool-aid session and show the world you guys matter. In fact you could even use a name like...."Independence Air" to show how unique and independent you are. I don't think the name is being used by anyone now and when you are done with it someone else could give it a shot.

Oh and by the way. Enjoy unemployment.
 
koko nw said:
I don't take it personally I would just like to understand it.
My question is how they can despise an entity which is providing them jobs and future growth more times then not at the expense of the mainline pilots?
Shouldn't the despising be coming from our end more so then theirs?

<<Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify. I don't think the viewpoint of these regional pilots is rational at all, I just know the sentiment is widespread, and impacts the service and cost structure of the mainline they "serve". The lack of historical knowledge of the business and lack of foresight regarding the likelihood of spending most of their lives in an RJ for less than 100K will continue to feed the spiral - though it is really out of the regional pilot's control.

Intersting enough fully half of the captains I've flown with are from the regionals...Do you lose your bitterness once you've made it to the "show"? Or is it despising what you don't understand?
I'm asking because I don't know, not trying to be sarcastic.
quote]

Having made the move from the regionals to the majors over 10 years ago I can only speak for myself. I did not despise the majors as I realized where my bread was buttered. I was completely against the expansion of scope, however, and thought the legacy pilots were cutting their own throats while limiting the number of "real" airline jobs. I worked hard to reincorporate the regional pilots into the mainline system and having one list. Now that there are over 20,000 regional pilots and many thousands less legacy jobs this has been born out.

I have flown for 3 major ailines now and have a pretty good feel for that side of the business. I respond strongly when someone gets on their high horse and is dismissive towards the regionals (or any other airline), or blames them for the demise of the industry. These juniors are usually completely unaware that there is only one group responsible for creating the regional airline disaster and it is the legacy pilots themselves. By the same logic - they are the only ones that have a hope of correcting the situation, but after the pain of the last few years there is little hope of that.

I believe we are doomed to die the death of a thousand cuts as we continue to ratchet down and airline managements take advantage of our ridiculous tribal nature. The previous poster that I responded to has a junior high school mentality that is sadly widespread amongst our profession and prohibits any hope of us turning this trainwreck around. He somehow equates his self worth with the uniform he puts on in the morning, and feels he has the right to dis anyone who doesn't wear it. What a joke - I have worn the most respected uniform in this business as well as one of the least and two more in between. I am the same man, and pilot, in every suit.

We should respect the profession and the job we all do and not some silly set of clothes. I believe in a brotherhood of airmen that lets the egomaniacal businessmen beat their chests about whose airline is better while we quietly deliver our passengers for reasonable wages and benefits- and respect our fellow pilots regardless of the garb-de-jour.

Now I've done it.....
murk
Click to expand...
 
MRYFLYER said:
I would encourage all you guys that despise your bread and butter mother airline to have your management take your RJ's and form a LCC. Start competing against your major partner at its hub, create a real kool-aid session and show the world you guys matter. In fact you could even use a name like...."Independence Air" to show how unique and independent you are. I don't think the name is being used by anyone now and when you are done with it someone else could give it a shot.

Oh and by the way. Enjoy unemployment.
Click to expand...

Sir...your posts are starting to bare an eerie resemblance to 32LT10. Lot's of anger and disdain in them. Good job...now go teach your kids some hate.
 
thruthemurk said:
koko nw said:
I don't take it personally I would just like to understand it.
My question is how they can despise an entity which is providing them jobs and future growth more times then not at the expense of the mainline pilots?
Shouldn't the despising be coming from our end more so then theirs?

<<Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify. I don't think the viewpoint of these regional pilots is rational at all, I just know the sentiment is widespread, and impacts the service and cost structure of the mainline they "serve". The lack of historical knowledge of the business and lack of foresight regarding the likelihood of spending most of their lives in an RJ for less than 100K will continue to feed the spiral - though it is really out of the regional pilot's control.

Intersting enough fully half of the captains I've flown with are from the regionals...Do you lose your bitterness once you've made it to the "show"? Or is it despising what you don't understand?
I'm asking because I don't know, not trying to be sarcastic.
quote]

Having made the move from the regionals to the majors over 10 years ago I can only speak for myself. I did not despise the majors as I realized where my bread was buttered. I was completely against the expansion of scope, however, and thought the legacy pilots were cutting their own throats while limiting the number of "real" airline jobs. I worked hard to reincorporate the regional pilots into the mainline system and having one list. Now that there are over 20,000 regional pilots and many thousands less legacy jobs this has been born out.

I have flown for 3 major ailines now and have a pretty good feel for that side of the business. I respond strongly when someone gets on their high horse and is dismissive towards the regionals (or any other airline), or blames them for the demise of the industry. These juniors are usually completely unaware that there is only one group responsible for creating the regional airline disaster and it is the legacy pilots themselves. By the same logic - they are the only ones that have a hope of correcting the situation, but after the pain of the last few years there is little hope of that.

I believe we are doomed to die the death of a thousand cuts as we continue to ratchet down and airline managements take advantage of our ridiculous tribal nature. The previous poster that I responded to has a junior high school mentality that is sadly widespread amongst our profession and prohibits any hope of us turning this trainwreck around. He somehow equates his self worth with the uniform he puts on in the morning, and feels he has the right to dis anyone who doesn't wear it. What a joke - I have worn the most respected uniform in this business as well as one of the least and two more in between. I am the same man, and pilot, in every suit.

We should respect the profession and the job we all do and not some silly set of clothes. I believe in a brotherhood of airmen that lets the egomaniacal businessmen beat their chests about whose airline is better while we quietly deliver our passengers for reasonable wages and benefits- and respect our fellow pilots regardless of the garb-de-jour.

Now I've done it.....
murk
Click to expand...


MRYFLYER

When your kids have absorbed that last lecture I suggest printing the above post off and reading it to them...over and over again.
Click to expand...
 
koko nw said:
My question is how they can despise an entity which is providing them jobs and future growth more times then not at the expense of the mainline pilots?
Click to expand...

I'll take a stab at this one. First, its very important to understand the feelings of frustration are not aimed at the employees of UAL, but at the management. I spent a little more than 5 years hubbed out of ORD as a United Express pilot so I think my view is a valid one.

1) Express pilots recognize they are locked into a lifetime of low pay, crappy cotracts and uncertain career expectations because of Mainline management. If they stand up for a pay raise, the flying gets passed onto the next lowest bidder. In my case, our ALPA pilots lost our flying to a non Union alter ego startup (Hojets) and UAL ALPA didn't even so much as belch an objection.

2) Because each Express carrier is trying to squeeze blood from a stone, we get less than desired operational support. If UAL would just pay my company enough, we could afford all the GPU's we need, and all the push carts, and a couple more rampers so I don't have to wait 45 minutes till after departure for my bags.

3) And this is the one that always torqued me off the most at UAL Express. When ORD startes groundstopping, UAL takes Express arrival slots and hands them over to mainline. So while a passenger on 737 gets to go on time, me and my passengers on the RJ get to sit in some podunk midwest town for 9 hours at a time. Yep... thats right... I have THREE, 9 hour groundstops under my belt because my slot was taken away from me and given to mainline. And I have more 4 hours sits than I can remember, probably 20 or more. Why does UAL do this? Because Express On-time performance is not reflected on Mainline numbers. That way... UAL can still claim to be the #1 on time airline...even though 50% of their passengers are stuck at an outstation running 4 hours late!

Thats the viewpoint of a former Express guy! UAL has great employees, but the business practices aimed at the Express carriers suck.
 
Last edited:
First thank you Murk and J32 for your perspectives and inputs....Well thought out and very reasonable.

J32driver said:
I'll take a stab at this one. First, its very important to understand the feelings of frustration are not aimed at the employees of UAL, but at the management. I spent a little more than 5 years hubbed out of ORD as a United Express pilot so I think my view is a valid one.

I agree and thank you.

1) Express pilots recognize they are locked into a lifetime of low pay, crappy cotracts and uncertain career expectations because of Mainline management. If they stand up for a pay raise, the flying gets passed onto the next lowest bidder. In my case, our ALPA pilots lost our flying to a non Union alter ego startup (Hojets) and UAL ALPA didn't even so much as belch an objection.

I too have seen this happen, how do you stop it is my question. Our past senior MEC were more self absorbed and worried more about flying the 400's and saving there pensions vice narrow body flying or the it's erosion (gave away 70 seater's for..you ready for this...NOTHING)....just witness our last contract ratified.
I have higher hopes for the current MEC but without national unity the whipsawing WILL continue. Unfortunately I don't believe our current senior ALPA leaders have the gut's or ability to stem that tide.

2) Because each Express carrier is trying to squeeze blood from a stone, we get less than desired operational support. If UAL would just pay my company enough, we could afford all the GPU's we need, and all the push carts, and a couple more rampers so I don't have to wait 45 minutes till after departure for my bags.

I do understand that but from a business perspective especially when we were losing our tail, your company is just as culpable for not providing you those tools to ply your trade. But I do understand that the threat of losing the contract was probably in the forefront of your managements radar. The proverbial rock and a hard place


3) And this is the one that always torqued me off the most at UAL Express. When ORD startes groundstopping, UAL takes Express arrival slots and hands them over to mainline. So while a passenger on 737 gets to go on time, me and my passengers on the RJ get to sit in some podunk midwest town for 9 hours at a time. Yep... thats right... I have THREE, 9 hour groundstops under my belt because my slot was taken away from me and given to mainline. And I have more 4 hours sits than I can remember, probably 20 or more. Why does UAL do this? Because Express On-time performance is not reflected on Mainline numbers. That way... UAL can still claim to be the #1 on time airline...even though 50% of their passengers are stuck at an outstation running 4 hours late!

I can answer that, BONUSES...On time is one of the metrics they base there bonuses on, soooo if they have to screw peter to pay paul, they'll do it in a nanosecond. Sorry you got caught in it.

Thats the viewpoint of a former Express guy! UAL has great employees, but the business practices aimed at the Express carriers suck.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for your views...Good luck hopefully you found greener pastures.

Cheers

Koko
 
MRYFLYER said:
I would encourage all you guys that despise your bread and butter mother airline to have your management take your RJ's and form a LCC. Start competing against your major partner at its hub, create a real kool-aid session and show the world you guys matter. In fact you could even use a name like...."Independence Air" to show how unique and independent you are. I don't think the name is being used by anyone now and when you are done with it someone else could give it a shot.

Oh and by the way. Enjoy unemployment.
Click to expand...

Maybe you could show how UAL brought down industry wages by flying 747's for (less than) 737 wages. Maybe you could park sever dozen aircraft, including many wide body jets. Maybe you could show how UAL spent 3+ years in BK showing how to rid itself and its employees of its obligations while raping its workforce and rewarding its management team with a contract through 2011.
Maybe you could do the world a favor 32 and shut your pie hole!

Oh and by the way, when "yo nited" goes TU, enjoy your unemployment!
 

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